How free is the OpenPandora?

[Prometheus]

The fact is the Pandora will fail his test, it will fail on a serious of ludicrous technicalities.

How does this justify your hostility?

He probably doesn't want to have to receive a shipment of 200 bricks because someone misunderstood a warning about what tampering with bits can do and ran with it, or have the forum flooded with pictures of blobs because the Pandora uses some binary blobs, or similar...

 

[Miner49er]

Nothing justifies hostility. The guy asked a simple question and Craig responded with hostility. This is wrong and there was quite simply no need.


Fridges and washing machines are a (currently) a very different beast when we talk about the computer inside them. They (currently) don't store any information on the user and/or send any information off to a central-server or anything like that. Computers do, (A pandora is a computer in case you hadn't noticed) and this is what is generally targeted by the likes of OP.


One day fridges and washing machines may log usage and send that information off for targeted advertising purposes (for instance). Imagine it: "You appeared to do a lot of laundry last week, here's a great offer for new Ariel-daz-automagic - keeps clothes cleaner for longer! Also, we noticed loads of skid-marks on your pants - here's a great offer for new-super-absorbant toilet-paper!" or "we noticed you ate a lot of food from your fridge last week and all of it was Pizza - here's a great offer for extra-large pizzas from Dominoes - saves you cooking time and tastes GREAT!". At that point, _I_ for one would start caring about what software was running in my fridge or washing-machine.


As for cars, again we're not quite at that point but bloody close. Right now, car companies have 'one-over' mechanics due to bloody software in the car. To have a simple 'electrical test' you need an expensive device that enables communication with the vehicle. This software SHOULD be open so there can be some competition and allow others without the device to fix their damn car. Cars annoy me - they've become more complex for no reason IMO. Going off topic but 20 years ago, I could fix most things on my car with the help of the Haynes manual - now, I wouldn't know where to start because everything is hidden and obsfucated. This sucks and if I could buy an Open-Source car I bloody well would!


Finally, please don't be so rude to people Craig - otherwise people might get the wrong impression about the Pandora 'community'. And Prometheus, come on stop sticking up for silly behaviour - admit that although Craig is a decent chap he can often come across as a tad rude.


I'm sure there is no harm done but people do care about Open Source - let them!

 

[EvilDragon]

I mean Christ, I'd bet my electricity meter has closed source firmware in it, would he put up with that?

There is a very important difference:


The nubs and the WiFi module have a closed source firmware, yes, but all you need to do is load them to the chip with an open driver.


So if you decide to port WebOS onto the Pandora, you can do so, as WebOS also can upload that firmware into the module.


However, if the WiFi DRIVER itself would be closed (and there would be no open version), then you could not use WiFi on your WebOS port.


The only issue the Pandora has regarding that is the 3D driver, which is half open. So you could port it to other Linux based OSes, but not to a completely different OS (like Windows Mobile).


That's exactly the issue with Android:


While Android is open and free, most smartphone manufacturers have closed source drivers on them. So you could not build your own optimized Android port and run it on these devices nor can you run any other OS on (another issue is the closed and secured bootloader though).


That's why so many don't consider Android as open. The OS is, yes, but the manufacturers close it down.


That's why I love my N900. I can put MeeGo on it, or Maemo, or Android.


And it's the same with the Pandora. Anyone can port almost any open OS onto it.


So there's a huge difference between closed source for firmwares of devices and closed source of the drivers to TALK to these devices.

 

[elwing]

That's why so many don't consider Android as open. The OS is, yes, but the manufacturers close it down.

QFT.


I've rarely seen a so closed down open-source software...

 

[ivanovic]

I'm an editor at Defective by Design and we've been asked to include the OpenPandora in our list of devices we can recommend to people.

Personally I think such a list is a good and great idea. To at least show that there are ways to buy devices without the stuff. But, uhm, on the website I was not actually able to find it... Do you also have a direct link to such a list?


Personally I think that the Pandora can be recommended since the only "really" closed part is the 3D functionality of the GPU. Regarding DRM and stuff it is most likely to later on install stuff to allow usage of DRM'ed stuff (not sure though), but there comes nothing bundled, it all depends on the user, even regarding audio and video codecs and a media player.

 

[Prometheus]

And Prometheus, come on stop sticking up for silly behaviour - admit that although Craig is a decent chap he can often come across as a tad rude.

My apologies, but that wasn't my intent at all. All I was doing was cracking a joke about some of Defective By Design's campaigns that I don't personally agree with, because Nardella's post made it a bit difficult to resist.


Also, you've made it sound like I make some sort of a habit of defending hostility and need to admit something or other about Craig. Sorry, but you know that's wrong as well as I do. I'm pretty insulted by that.


I'm not daft, I am perfectly aware of how important raising awareness of the Pandora is. I have nothing to do with how Craig posts and frankly don't have any real views on that - I can only account for and take responsibility for my own posts. I'm sorry that my sense of humour, which was actually not in any way anything to do with what Craig posted at all, apparently got misinterpreted this time. My apologies, once again.

 

[mattl]

Hey Craig,


I've actually spoken to you about this a few times since the project was announced. We met at LUG Radio Live in 2007 and discussed it a little then, and I mentioned that I would be interested in seeing how the device panned out.


I don't drive, but we're actually recommending against certain models of car. In particular, cars with the MyFord Touch or MyLincoln Touch software. Glitches in this proprietary software have led Ford to issue an update. This means the car can be infected with malicious software, but there are deeper issues with cars -- in the US, laws like the DMCA are preventing people from tinkering with their cars.


As I said, hardware endorsements are incredibly difficult for us, as I mentioned. One way we've come up with to avoid the problem is that by removing the ability for things like WiFI software to be upgraded, we can effectively treat the wireless networking hardware as a circuit, and importantly, not a malicious circuit that can be upgraded.

Personally I think such a list is a good and great idea. To at least show that there are ways to buy devices without the stuff. But, uhm, on the website I was not actually able to find it... Do you also have a direct link to such a list?

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/guide


Best,


matt

 

[Pickle]

So going to the site, most of the statements are promoting others to not support devices that contain DRM. I dug a little deeper and it also seems to be anything that is not open (or 'free')


For instance there is a holiday guide: http://www.defectivebydesign.org/holiday

Cars — If you're thinking of buying a new car, be sure to avoid cars with the MyFord Touch and MyLincoln Touch software. Glitches in this proprietary software have led Ford to issue an update. This means the car can be infected with malicious software and is best avoided. Lastly, beware of GM cars with cell phones built-in, because cells phones are so easily used as tracking devices.

Being in the industry i find this a little humorous. I wonder if the defectivebydesign people really know how much electronics and software is running in *every* modern vehicle today. Do they even know that some vehicles are drive by wire, meaning for instance your brake pedal is simulated and attached to sensor measuring movement which a electronic system uses to provide the desired deceleration.


Do they consider with the system GM offers may save lives. Imagine your unconscious after an accident and in need of assistance and your life is saved because the system allowed you to located instantly.


Time to hook the horse on the buggy.


Im grateful for what FSF has done for computing and given the world access to free computing. But on the other hand i support Microsoft/Apple in their right to sell software that in closed. Its my choice to decide to support them with my wallet. I actually use both linux and windows, both have uses for me.


I do agree with the DRM approach and i try not support it when it becomes an inconvenience and prevents me from doing what i would like with the product. But life is short. For example I can live with steam as a validation system, mainly because i have always on internet, if i still had dialup I dont think id support it. On the other hand there is GOG.com, which i highly support and would purchase from over any other distributor since there is no DRM and no restrictions where i can use the software. Same with humble bundles. But software that supports limited installs I wont support at all, no matter the content.


Freedom can be good, but in the end if everyone is free to do what ever they want and when ever they want isnt it just chaos?


Pandora should make thier list, the basic critical systems are opens sourced and are useable through the kernel source which anyone can get. Anything that is closed is not needed by the user to really be able to use the parts that need them.


They may be critical because of the 3d driver, but its better than nothing, which by their criteria may be what they lock themselves into. Like i said life is short and id rather have the closed binary and be able to develop my apps and use them than twiddle my thumbs and pout about nothing being able to anything at all. The good news though is the work on mali, now that there is an option that will be open sourced I think if and when there is a pandora 2 it should be highly considered.


Ok ill get off my soap box (for now :rolleyes: )

 

[craigix]

The fact is the Pandora will fail his test, it will fail on a serious of ludicrous technicalities.

How does this justify your hostility?

I'm not being hostile, I'm simply being realistic and making some valid points.


I just find it slightly absurd to only highlight some everyday things with closed software and not others.


I'm not sure you could live a very comfortable life if you only bought and used true open source things.

 

[Ziz]

No, it is not possible to life "totally open". But you can try to maximize the amount of open source [soft/hard]ware you use. ;-) And a list of open source hardware is a big help here.

 

[Grench]

IMHO, groups like defectivebydesign need to change philosophy a bit.


Rather than just ranting against the devices that they think are bad, they should score devices or rank them within classes.


If that were the case, I could see the OpenPandora as being the top recommendation as the most open handheld general use computer AND as the most open handheld gaming device AND the most open device with a screen under 7". Frankly I could see it 'winning' in any realistic category that it could be placed in.


But, all I'm seeing on their website is a list of things they don't like. That isn't useful to me as an electronics consumer.

 

[bzar]

Ziz: True. I consider it more like supporting open design, open source and open standards. Not some black and white idealism. I for one prefer the open alternative whenever it is practical, but I won't throw my hands up in the air if there are only proprietary solutions available or if the available open solutions don't match my needs. I think DBD's campaign to raise awareness about the problems of proprietary software is a good start.


You don't need to zealously avoid any unhealthy foods to have a healthy diet, either. Just adjust your preferences.

 

[Miner49er]

And Prometheus, come on stop sticking up for silly behaviour - admit that although Craig is a decent chap he can often come across as a tad rude.

My apologies, but that wasn't my intent at all. All I was doing was cracking a joke about some of Defective By Design's campaigns that I don't personally agree with, because Nardella's post made it a bit difficult to resist.


Also, you've made it sound like I make some sort of a habit of defending hostility and need to admit something or other about Craig. Sorry, but you know that's wrong as well as I do. I'm pretty insulted by that.


I'm not daft, I am perfectly aware of how important raising awareness of the Pandora is. I have nothing to do with how Craig posts and frankly don't have any real views on that - I can only account for and take responsibility for my own posts. I'm sorry that my sense of humour, which was actually not in any way anything to do with what Craig posted at all, apparently got misinterpreted this time. My apologies, once again.

Well, I'm sorry if It seemed like I was accusing you of making a habit of defending hostility


No harm done - group hug everyone!

 

[Prometheus]

And Prometheus, come on stop sticking up for silly behaviour - admit that although Craig is a decent chap he can often come across as a tad rude.

My apologies, but that wasn't my intent at all. All I was doing was cracking a joke about some of Defective By Design's campaigns that I don't personally agree with, because Nardella's post made it a bit difficult to resist.


Also, you've made it sound like I make some sort of a habit of defending hostility and need to admit something or other about Craig. Sorry, but you know that's wrong as well as I do. I'm pretty insulted by that.


I'm not daft, I am perfectly aware of how important raising awareness of the Pandora is. I have nothing to do with how Craig posts and frankly don't have any real views on that - I can only account for and take responsibility for my own posts. I'm sorry that my sense of humour, which was actually not in any way anything to do with what Craig posted at all, apparently got misinterpreted this time. My apologies, once again.

Well, I'm sorry if It seemed like I was accusing you of making a habit of defending hostility


No harm done - group hug everyone!

Go figure. I bet I misinterpreted your meaning too, huh?


All good. Group hugs all round!

 

[DaMummy]

hugs are bad...m'kay? if you do hugs...youre bad...m'kay?


hugs are a gateway connection, and i want no part of a group connection on that level with you people!

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

hugs are bad...m'kay? if you do hugs...youre bad...m'kay?


hugs are a gateway connection, and i want no part of a group connection on that level with you people!

But i learnt all about hugs on Seventh heaven.They had such a true to life depiction of humanitys inner workings.And then there was highway to heaven.Oh and little house on the prairie and and

 

[Ziz]

You don't need to zealously avoid any unhealthy foods to have a healthy diet, either. Just adjust your preferences.

Indeed. I love my linux (and hate Windows ), my gp2x (with open2x), GIMP etc., but still use opera or skype. ;-)

 

[Link]

hugs are bad...m'kay? if you do hugs...youre bad...m'kay?


hugs are a gateway connection, and i want no part of a group connection on that level with you people!

But i learnt all about hugs on Seventh heaven.They had such a true to life depiction of humanitys inner workings.And then there was highway to heaven.Oh and little house on the prairie and and

It all started with Bonanza, "Little Joe make a run for the border...." Soundgarden quote.

 

[b_o_b]

I think this is relevant and quite interesting, Karen Sandler and free software on medical devices -

https://www.youtube.com/embed/nFZGpES-St8?feature=oembed Topic is the same, she is a real defender of free software. Karen Sandler is great in this video, speaks about free software, has some very convincing standpoints and doesn't have a beard!

 

[Ziz]

and doesn't have a beard!

Your point. XD