How Are All The Linux Newbies Coping?

[SomeGuy99]

Linux just doesn't appeal to the middle ground users who are neither light users or admin/hacker experts.

I think that describes me. I know a lot about how to get things done on my computer (frequently more than an "expert user"), but I couldn't write a bit of code to save my life.

Seems that most people don't know what you're talking about, though.

I've never used Linux before, so I guess I'll post my impressions when I get my system.

I think it's also more than simply people have learnt the ins and outs of Windows and can't adapt to Linux. The only question that needs answering for any type of user is 'Am I hitting a wall?' which depends upon what it is they want to do.

I have found myself frequently hitting walls. Configuring lots of stuff is harder than in Windows and requires a lot of Googling. If you look at the requests on say, the Ubuntu help forum, a lot of the experts there just answer with terminal commands. If you're not well versed with the shell, these commands make no sense... which stresses out somebody who wishes to feel in control of their computer. To actually understand what any given script means requires digesting huge amounts of information - more than a 'power' Windows user will need.

I find the documentation of Linux to be a little flakey and fragmented. Man and Info, for example feel quite antiquated to use from the terminal (but I can see how it appeals to sysadmin types). In Gnome, you can access them from a proper GUI in the help system, which is nice though.

I'm not scared of the shell at all. I do command-line stuff all the time, and it is much more powerful but the will or need to learn has to exist.

 

[VRAndy]

"Power users" are often very reluctant to change the software they use, let alone their operating system. All the "hints and tricks" they've learned would be obsolete. Their knowledge is too specific to and not "low level" enough to make learning a new system easy and intuitive.

Essentially, "power user" is short for "[software package] power user". From that perspective you can see why a "Windows power user" would have little interest in Linux. (And vice-versa.) I don't think that SomeGuy99 was implying that "Linux Power users" don't exist, just that power users on one side won't be comfortable swapping over to the other side.

(Nothing wrong with any of that, of course.)

That said ... I can't let this pass without comment....

3) Power Users
Tweaks the system, cleans registry and manages background proccessors. Runs emulators, virtualisation, uses browsers with add-ons etc.

[/quote]
This is the most watered down definition of "power user" ever. My mom does half that stuff and she's still afraid she might "push the wrong button" and "break something".
Where's the command line savy? Where's the custom scripts (or batch files) to automate common tasks? Memorization of a thousand keyboard shortcuts? In in-depth knowledge of every single feature of some software package, even the undocumented ones? Seeking out and installing arcane "productivity software" that mystifies the laymen, but, admittedly, allows the user to do some task extremely efficiently?

Traditionally a "power user" is someone who does all this to extremes that even a true "guru" may have trouble keeping up with.


To (sort of) answer the original question
I'm reasonably handy at using Linux, even if I'm a bit rusty. However, Getting my Pandora up and running would have been a frustrating experience if I wasn't comfortable using *nix command prompt.

• Specifically the wifi problems I had here would have been completely mystifying. To my knowledge, there was no GUI way to diagnose the problem, let alone fix it.
• Getting the Muppen emulator to work currently requires command line fiddling. Of course, this will soon be packaged up into a PND file, but "beta" software will probably often be floating around the forum that is not in a handy PND form.
• I didn't discover op_input_test until I was noodling around with the command line. This is handy. It ought to be in the system menu.

 

[sbt]

I have been running Ubuntu for the last two months on my main PC in preparation for my Pandora. It was running XP.
Previously, I had been using Windows since 3.1 and Dos-shell before that. I even bought Windows 7 but you know, it's still in the shrink rap.
Had Linux running on my Laptop for what? 6 months now and everyone's happy with it - even the kids love it.

I hadn't run *any* Linux distro for years before but I am slowly teaching myself some of the more in depth stuff and successfully managing to finally navigate my way around it.

If anybody else wants to give it a try - download a 'Live CD' distro and have a bash (no pun intended)

 

[God Ginrai]

A windows vs linux thread wouldn't even make any sense. Somewhat like asking a musician about rap vs jazz.

More like asking a poet about rap vs. limericks. Rap is not music, it is just poetry that has music in the background. Often very shitty poetry.

As far as I can tell there isn't a package manager (I wish there was) and I guess the only way to add apps is to use the terminal?

opkg is a package manager.


As for the original topic: I never had trouble switching from Windows to Linux, and I believe that it will be a similar experience for people using the Pandora. Anyone who turns away the Pandora because they couldn't "learn linux" will probably actually be turning away because they ran into bugs that weren't fixed yet and didn't know what to do. I'm not saying that the software has a plethora of bugs, but just that bugs tend to turn people away from Linux more than mos other things. Most people have been using Windows long enough that they have some contingency plan for if they run into bugs. (Ctrl+Alt+Delete, restart, etc.) If those don't seem to fix the problem, then they feel insecure. If that insecurity is left unchecked, then they are more likely to quit it.

-God Ginrai

 

[TrashyMG]

I'm not a big fan of desktop linux ( can't find a distro I like), but the pandora os looks really polished.

I was thinking of how unpolished it looks compared to my desktop Linux, odd how perspectives can be different.

 

[maplesugarlover]

I can use mac , windows and linux . I think what turns people off of linux is that there is little consistency. I think this is because most distros for desktops suck. Ubuntu makes random decisions like moving the window controls so they can add windicators in 10.10. Also , is it just me or does anybody think that ubuntu having a bar at the bottom and top of the screen is stupid. Also they switch to software before its ready,(Switched from pidgin to empathy , went to pulse audio, added ubuntu one ) and they have lots of bugs. Linux mint can't be much better because its based off ubuntu.

 

[andyB911]

I know Solaris Unix and shell scripting, but to be honest never really got on with Linux desktops. My theory till now has been... either use a command line or Windows GUI - Linux desktop has always seemed like trying hard to be like Windows when its not.

Hopefully Pandora's desktop will prove me wrong.

 

[bzar]

Here's a power user for you!

...sorry, carry on.

 

[Dunny]

I've decided to get into linux in preparation for my pandora...

So I nuked the second partition on my win7 lappy and installed Slackware 13

God, what a nightmare!

I feel like someone handed me a big box of lego bricks and said "get on with it" without telling me what it was I'm supposed to build. I feel like I did 25 years ago when I got my first Amiga, having owned a ZX Spectrum beforehand.

The install was easy. Straight into KDE with only a few keystrokes at the command prompt. Wireless networking? Get stuffed. Took two hours to get it connected, and that was only because I installed Network Manager from a package (I have no idea where it's been installed - it just appears on the "start menu"). I had to do that using pkgtool, and had no idea at all wtf I was doing, but until I got some wireless going I wasn't going to have a hope of finding out!

And the fonts look like crap, the web browsers look amateurish with their non-system-standard interfaces. I'd try starting X with a different window manager, but I have no idea how!

But hey, it's actually really good fun figuring it all out.

D.

 

[VRAndy]

Slack is not really intended for beginners.

It's intended to be sort of old-fashioned in many ways.

On the other hand, if Slack hasn't scared you away, then more power to you!

 

[TrashyMG]

I've decided to get into linux in preparation for my pandora...

So I nuked the second partition on my win7 lappy and installed Slackware 13

God, what a nightmare!

I feel like someone handed me a big box of lego bricks and said "get on with it" without telling me what it was I'm supposed to build. I feel like I did 25 years ago when I got my first Amiga, having owned a ZX Spectrum beforehand.

The install was easy. Straight into KDE with only a few keystrokes at the command prompt. Wireless networking? Get stuffed. Took two hours to get it connected, and that was only because I installed Network Manager from a package (I have no idea where it's been installed - it just appears on the "start menu"). I had to do that using pkgtool, and had no idea at all wtf I was doing, but until I got some wireless going I wasn't going to have a hope of finding out!

And the fonts look like crap, the web browsers look amateurish with their non-system-standard interfaces. I'd try starting X with a different window manager, but I have no idea how!

But hey, it's actually really good fun figuring it all out.

D.

Slackware isn't a good starter Distro IMO, they've got that reputation for a while and I started with it back in 1997. I know most people now seem to like Ubuntu.. Most likely because of the funny name. I prefer the Red Hat camp and generally use the Fedora Core releases. It's just what I'm more used to.

 

[multiplex]

I've decided to get into linux in preparation for my pandora...

So I nuked the second partition on my win7 lappy and installed Slackware 13

God, what a nightmare!

[...]

But hey, it's actually really good fun figuring it all out.

D.

That's Slackware for you. I hope you walked into it with both eyes open.

 

[Wheels]

How I was introduced to Linux: http://nostarch.com/ubuntu4.htm Good for familiarizing yourself with modern Linux, though Ubuntu is slightly different from the Pandora's OS. I find it really helps to have the "projects" laid out instead of just poking around aimlessly. Eased me into it nicely. It's geared towards people who might know a thing (or two) about Windows or Mac but aren't necessarily "power users" (whichever way you take that to mean).
Actually it was this edition with the old Dapper Drake LiveCD that I used, but I'm sure most of it hasn't changed. Best thing is that it comes with an Ubuntu LiveCD so you can try everything out before installing anything, then install the OS when you're ready or leave it aside. Imagine buying a How-To Windows book for ~$30 dollars and getting a free copy of Windows 7 with it.

 

[Kramy]

Warning: 3 posts follow. I hit the quote limit a couple times. :lol:

I find that while Linux is great for casual users and experts, it leaves a lot to be desired for power users. I think in this regard, Windows serves this segment better.

:blink:

I'm not sure that I follow. Please, say more.

Yeah, he's got that right. Power users are very productive, but don't want to blow time trying to fix things. Power users usually morph into experts if they have to waste enough time fixing stuff - but most don't want to.

Ahh... how many hours did I waste configuring Xorg.conf in Ubuntu? Quite a lot. :lol:

I think you've got that the wrong way around bud.
Linux lets you change everything; Windows limits everything; how's Windows more powerful?

He never said it was more powerful. He said it was more suitable for power users, and he's correct.

Such limitations aren't visible for those who can do what they like using Windows and aren't bound.

Plus, many of those limitations only exist in the minds of linux fanboys. (not to be confused with linux users or linux gurus B) )

I mean, when PND was announced, it took me about 5 seconds to realize I had software installed on Windows that could do exactly what I needed.

Since then I've stumbled across a thread about ISO naming levels. (Fennec DLL names being shortened, or something like that) I checked the software, and it has that option configurable.

For a power user, everything you need is already available on Windows. It's only when you need true reconfigurability that you need something like Linux. For most of us, there's easy Windows solutions to everything we want to do. Of course, on a forum like this (with a high percentage of linux users), there's better odds that a linux solution will be known and available, instead.

In linux you can go into the sourcecode of the kernel and change anything you like... I don't think you can have anymore of a "power user" then that.

That would make you an expert. I'm a power user. I did compile a few things, but never the kernel. :lol:

I prefer Java. Devving in Java is easy. The one time I compiled a C program, I had to fight with different versions of gcc/binutils/etc. until I found a combo that was stable. Ick.

Linux is way more configurable, yes. But learning how to do this is a steep learning curve.

Sorry but as far as I'm concerned the latest versions of Windows are a lot harder for people to learn than the older versions of Windows and the latest versions of Linux based operating systems.

This is totally true, as is the rest of your post - but so is the quote you're replying to.

Installing linux on old hardware for the first time, it took me a while to get xorg setup properly. When X11 crashed for the first time, I had no clue what to do, so I went for the power button. And when I typed in the wrong character in xorg.conf, and it would no longer start my desktop environment... I was stumped. Not even reverting to default xorg.conf would work, so I did a fresh install. :lol:

It's fixing stuff when it breaks that makes Linux complicated. Windows inevitably breaks, and it's easy to fix. Linux inevitably breaks, and... it isn't. But if you have a linux guru hanging around, and/or a second computer, that makes it a ton easier.

Usage wise, Ubuntu is easier than XP, which is easier than the new versions of windows. But according to first-time computer users, none of them have anything on OSX.

The old excuse that Linux is hard to use doesn't work any more. You can now configure just about everything from the GUI.

This isn't absolutely true. Every version I've tried I've had to dig around in the CLI/conf files to get things working. For example, on my NAS, Samba won't work unless I manually configure /etc/network/interfaces and some other file.

I can't remember the last time I used the command line

I can. Yesterday! :lol: Damn you Ubuntu!... damn you.

OK everybody, line up in front of the chalkboard and write "This is not a Windows Vs Linux Thread" 100 times...

:lol:

I love Linux... but I also love Windows XP. And I brutally criticize both for all their flaws. It gets me a ton of flak, but oh well.

 

[Kramy]

You don't need the clean the registry, because there is no registry that can be destroyed or full of crap in a blink of the eye.
Virtualisation is easy, you just install virtualbox with the Ubuntu Software Center that you can find in the Ubuntu menu.
Emulators can be found there too.
Firefox is installed by default, to install add-ons, you do like in windows, with the internal modules system in firefox.
To manage the background processes, well, there is a graphical system monitor.

1) gconf-editor; Gnome's config thingy is equivalent to a registry. However, Gnome seems to utterly fail at migrating gconf between versions. I've heard lots of people have strange behaviour after Ubuntu upgrades, but deleting Gnome's config and reinstalling it solves that - or failing that, just to a clean install of the new version. I hate to say it, especially since I hate it - but the Windows registry actually works better.
2) I love VirtualBox. It works great on XP. But I had to use VMware to get an old Win98 VM working. Also available on Linux.
3) The Firefox version in Ubuntu is unstable and crash prone. I had to enable the beta versions to get something that wouldn't crash after 15 minutes. I finally migrated away from it, to Chromium. (No crashes in months!)
4) That thing is heavyweight, but I like it. Unfortunately, it doesn't stay resident in memory, so if your HDD suddenly stops (don't ask...) it can't start. I ultimately ended up using Taskman (XP) to diagnose I/O flatlines. Go figure.

Maybe there's a cmdline tool for that last one that'd work, but... now you're getting into expert territory again. :lol:

And although I like it, I haven't found the gnome system monitor to be as useful as procexp. (Windows)

It reconnected Wifi after standby, or it didn't - Network Manager!(lol-rofl). System updates frequently nuked something so I had to roll back in the end to not pull out a hammer and steamroll that little fucker.

I've seen the same thing on Windows PCs. I had to disable Wifi power management on one, because it wouldn't turn back on automatically after resuming from standby.

Windows updates fark things about as much as Ubuntu updates. Ubuntu broke my Samba, so I had to rollback... but I've seen Windows 7 updates break DNS. That's bad.

But still, do people actually care what they're using? No. They just care that it works. That is the way it should be, in a way; technology that just works

+1

I don't try and convert everyone I see, but I think that knowing that there are options out there is a good thing.

+1

Linux just doesn't appeal to the middle ground users who are neither light users or admin/hacker experts.

I think that describes me. I know a lot about how to get things done on my computer (frequently more than an "expert user"), but I couldn't write a bit of code to save my life.

Seems that most people don't know what you're talking about, though.

I've never used Linux before, so I guess I'll post my impressions when I get my system.

You'll be fine. The Pandora OS is quite purpose built. If you can figure out a PSP or DVD player, you'll do fine with it.

Seems that most people don't know what you're talking about, though.

Also, +1. Most of the replies in this thread don't grasp what you were trying to get at.

I have found myself frequently hitting walls. Configuring lots of stuff is harder than in Windows and requires a lot of Googling. If you look at the requests on say, the Ubuntu help forum, a lot of the experts there just answer with terminal commands. If you're not well versed with the shell, these commands make no sense... which stresses out somebody who wishes to feel in control of their computer. To actually understand what any given script means requires digesting huge amounts of information - more than a 'power' Windows user will need.

I find the documentation of Linux to be a little flakey and fragmented. Man and Info, for example feel quite antiquated to use from the terminal (but I can see how it appeals to sysadmin types). In Gnome, you can access them from a proper GUI in the help system, which is nice though.

Very well put. I've found conflicting documentation to be the biggest issue. Usually I just go by what's been posted most recently on the Ubuntu forums.

Unfortunately, I've had no less than ~8 issues that nobody on the forums could solve. But a fresh install always does the trick!

That's a pretty bad track record, since I've had to wipe out my Windows installs 0 times. (but I do so anyways every few years, in the name of tweaking and a clean registry)

Essentially, "power user" is short for "[software package] power user". From that perspective you can see why a "Windows power user" would have little interest in Linux. (And vice-versa.) I don't think that SomeGuy99 was implying that "Linux Power users" don't exist, just that power users on one side won't be comfortable swapping over to the other side.

You nailed it on the head.

It's worth noting that Linux power users (with no interest in anything Windows) often make false assertions about what can and can't be done on Windows. Windows is a lot more customizable and powerful than they assume.

And Windows power users (that may have tried linux once in the past) often cling to the old CLI-only reputation linux used to have. I've seen ignorant posts on slashdot criticizing things like ACPI - it's just ridiculous. ACPI hasn't been an issue in Linux for years - although I can cite a few examples where it plagues old XP laptops.

Where's the command line savy? Where's the custom scripts (or batch files) to automate common tasks? Memorization of a thousand keyboard shortcuts? In in-depth knowledge of every single feature of some software package, even the undocumented ones? Seeking out and installing arcane "productivity software" that mystifies the laymen, but, admittedly, allows the user to do some task extremely efficiently?

His original intent was to pull the term "power user" away from the "power users" on this forum that build their own operating systems and applications. Your definition is however, more correct.

And all of those things in your definition can be learned without picking up the ability to quickly muck through a corrupt xorg.conf :lol:

 

[Aninhumer]

So I nuked the second partition on my win7 lappy and installed Slackware 13

God, what a nightmare!

Probably not the best choice for a complete beginner, although that said, if you want to "get into" linux, perhaps it is a good choice.
You might want to try Arch Linux as a "learner" distro (as opposed to a "beginner" distro, like Ubuntu), they have excellent documentation, and the only forum that rivals Ubuntu's in helpfulness.

And the fonts look like crap, the web browsers look amateurish with their non-system-standard interfaces. I'd try starting X with a different window manager, but I have no idea how!

Dunno about Slackware specifically, but I know Fedora's fonts look terrible because they don't include some patented tech in their freetype build.
Once you get that though, I think freetype is the best font renderer I've ever seen.
Windows' fonts are entirely terrible, especially with subpixel, and Mac's still look weird to me (they kind of pop out, instead of being just sharp).

But hey, it's actually really good fun figuring it all out.

Yup, that's why we love it.

 

[Kramy]

I've decided to get into linux in preparation for my pandora...

So I nuked the second partition on my win7 lappy and installed Slackware 13

God, what a nightmare!

I feel like someone handed me a big box of lego bricks and said "get on with it" without telling me what it was I'm supposed to build. I feel like I did 25 years ago when I got my first Amiga, having owned a ZX Spectrum beforehand.

The install was easy. Straight into KDE with only a few keystrokes at the command prompt. Wireless networking? Get stuffed. Took two hours to get it connected, and that was only because I installed Network Manager from a package (I have no idea where it's been installed - it just appears on the "start menu"). I had to do that using pkgtool, and had no idea at all wtf I was doing, but until I got some wireless going I wasn't going to have a hope of finding out!

And the fonts look like crap, the web browsers look amateurish with their non-system-standard interfaces. I'd try starting X with a different window manager, but I have no idea how!

But hey, it's actually really good fun figuring it all out.

D.

This roughly mirrors my first experience with Linux. Except I went with Ubuntu, and it was that bad. :lol:

nVidia RAID Array? wtf? Why does it think my second HDD is an nVidia RAID Array? Maybe a reboot will solve that... Oh crap!... it just fsck'd it, and now it's totally corrupt!

BAD Ubuntu!... BAD.

You might want to try Arch Linux as a "learner" distro (as opposed to a "beginner" distro, like Ubuntu), they have excellent documentation, and the only forum that rivals Ubuntu's in helpfulness.

I'm going to second that recommendation. I've heard good things about Arch, although I've never used it personally.

 

[Dunny]

Yeah guys, I went with Slack.

With hindsight, it might have been a better idea to spend time with ubuntu, then nuking that when I'd got the hang of all things linux. But after searching around, I noticed the sheer number of folks who said things like "if you want to learn unix, get slack" and "slack is the mother or reliability". Kind of sold it to me. I don't care how hard it is to learn!

So yes, both eyes wide open as I started this morning. I know that I could have been up and running in a fraction of the time had I chosen Windows, but (1) that would have taught me nothing about the underlying OS, and (2) that wasn't the point of the exercise

Anyway, I've now got issues getting stuff to run under KDE... Downloaded Google chrome, but it won't start, and Firefox only runs occasionally - most of the time it just sits in the taskbar and then disappears

Still, more mysteries to figure out!

D.

 

[Reknel]

Linux has two big problems, chaos and bullshit.

Being FOSS phylosophy, everyone develops how they want without much order or coordination. That's a good thing, up to the point where everyone wants their app to be the first choice out there and fights inevitably breakout and doubled, tripled or even "hundredpled" efforts start to appear. Just take a look at this pic:

Or you can take a look at Distrowatch, there are more than three hundred different distros listed there, and it's missing some of them. WTF??? 300 is WAY TOO MUCH choice. Imagine you start with ubuntu and think you'd like something else that isn't as bloated. So you go to a page like that and "try" to choose one. You "try" because you don't have time to check what tiny difference there is between distro A and distro B... distro ZZZ.

Aside from that, problems with packaging, non-standarized installation folders (the whole directory system is usually ignored by devs), Audio (Holy CRAP!), Xorg (OMG!) and an ongoing list of things, trying to fix it is a nightmare. Apps might sometime, break down for no apparent reason because the code has returned a -1 where it should have returned a 0 and you don't know why.

Here's the list of the most hilarious things I've run into in Linux:

- Uninstalling Pidgin, Orca or whatever default APP in Ubuntu uninstalls the fucking GNOME.
- The mandriva 2008 install's partioning table didn't let you make a draft of the new partioning scheme, but it erased partitions with one click without prompting, I lost 60 GB worth of data because of that.
- For some weird reason, when I ran a Java app (Jdownloader) in KDE the X's went wild and started flipping the screen with weird coloured rectangles and ultimately the system crashed without remedy (took about 3 second to do that).
- Uninstalling one Desktop enviroment to install another is the same commiting suicide. For some reason after I uninstalled GNOME and set up KDE, the desktop settings would erase at random times without notice and for no apparent reason, so I had to fix the bar and it's buttons again and again.
- In Debian, because they think private drivers are a blasphemy, I couldn't get anything working. I tried to install the private driver for linux of my wireless adapter, followed instructions given on several forums and none of them work.
- The list goes on...

And a friend of mine has had it way worse than me with Arch Linux, Gentoo, etc. He tried to install them well over 30 times and spent a whole year reading about both. He never made it.

Besides, when you ask for help at Linux forums they usually call you a dumb fuck when you don't know that chmod is for permissions or when you don't know what fstab is or what /etc/shit/lol/roflmao/kernelpanic or whatever is. It's been going on like this for years and it doesn't look like it's going to change. It can drive people really mad, I myself bitched at everyone at these forums when, after not finding anything about DS interface topics and starting a new one about it, got laughed at and ridiculized. I'm sorry about the way I behaved back then and I'd like to apologize, but I would also want people to understand why these things happen. On the note, NEVER say you come from Ubuntu on the Mandriva forums.


EDIT: Forgot to add to the list the time that LiveCD puppy Linux froze while resizing my harddrives. Another shitload of data lost.

 

[femngi]

POWER USERS