How Are All The Linux Newbies Coping?

[mali]

@puppydee
Great work I've started a Tweaks Thread in the help section for those kinds of tutorials and other useful info.

 

[VRAndy]

I know what you mean! Are you aware that there are literally hundreds of different types of hammer? I don't understand why everyone from steel-workers and lumberjacks to jewelers and clockmakers can't just use a solid 22oz claw hammer with a rubberized handle. It works out great for me, and I've never had any problem with it. Not one single problem!

You can't compare a Hammer to an operating system, one by itself could make a hammer even if it's wooden one. A stick and the top, stick them together or make a hole on the latter to fill it it with the stick. DONE. Try doing that with an OS.

Ok, Motor-vehicles then. Have you seen those silly luggage carts they have at the airport? I can't believe they keep using those, I've never had a problem with my two-door Hyundai.

The point is that they're tools you use for different purposes. Windows and MacOS may be the 22oz claw-hammer of operating systems, the kind most average folk keep in their tool boxes, But jeweler's hammers and luggage carts exist because they fill a niche. They serve a need for a specific group of people for specific purposes. Sure, it would insane to go through every hammer ever made, or every motor-vehicle ever made before you found the one that was right for your application, but no one is expecting you to do that. We expect you're sane enough not to try.

Pfft! That's not Chaos! That's diversity.

And that is called euphemism.

You may call it whatever would give you the most pleasure, but the fact remains that there is no earthly reason for everyone to use the same tool for different jobs.

Take for instance Amarok, .....

O... K...

Linux could be SO MUCH MORE if people stopped fighting and being picky and arrogant.

So, instead of people going their own way, and building the tools they want or need, they should work together and make a compromise system that's not perfect for anybody, but is "good enough" for most?

We've got two of those already. We don't need a third.

 

[Farewell]

It seems top heavy setups are not popular around here. I use Ubuntu and have completely gotten rid of the bottom bar and moved everything to the top. It may look a little cluttered but it seems much more practical than having to either split your attention between two bars or use the bottom one, which is by its very nature, far from content which is largely top heavy.

 

[Reknel]

You may call it whatever would give you the most pleasure, but the fact remains that there is no earthly reason for everyone to use the same tool for different jobs.

What I mean to say is that many of those distros are just the same tool with a different colour. I agree with doing other distros like SuperGrub Disk, Puppy, Netbook based ones, etc. But this is rarely the case, few of those 300 hundred distros actually serve a good purpose or different way of managing things. Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSuse, Mint, they are different versions of the underlying system while Arch, Gentoo, Slack and others of the kind want to enhance choice and performance. Then you have Puppy, SupperGrub, Angstrom, DSL... that serve different functions.

The thing I want to point out is that in many cases new distros are made with too few additions to make it worthwile. Going back to the car's example, imagine manufacturers made a new version of car A by fully remodelling it just because it didn't have an Ashtray. Why not just make the ashtray for those who don't have it or change that only part of the model?

You know what a good distro would be? One that on the setup asks you what to use. Desktop Enviroment , the apps, the startup manager... and download them from the net. And a default option in case you don't know what option to choose or just don' care. I know there's Arch Linux but for some people it's a bit too complicated.

 

[WizardStan]

Ok, guys? Seriously? WTF? That's 7 pages of what, exactly?

Anywho, I'm going to make a serious remark about the original question:

I'd be interested to see if there are any Pandora owners here who've never had any experience with Linux before, and how they coped with setting the system up.

Why would you expect them to have trouble?
The Wii OS is different from Windows. I've never heard any complaints.
The PS3 OS is different from Windows. I've never heard any complaints.
The XBox and 360 OSs are different from Windows. I've never heard any complaints.
The TIVO system, which actually is a version of Linux even though 99% of the population is completely unaware of that, is different from Windows. I've never heard any complaints.
(and when I say "complaints", I mean reasonable complaints, from reasonably technologically minded people, not grandma who couldn't set her oven timer if tomorrow's turkey dinner depended on it)
And yet, the instant someone is told "X runs Linux" all they seem to hear is "X is going to be a pain for non-techy people to use". Why? As far as the Pandora is concerned, if you were to hand it to someone and not tell them it runs Linux, just let it boot to the minimenu and let them have a go at it, they would be none the wiser, and just assume it was some custom operating system exactly as they think of the Wii, PS3, XBoxen, and TIVO.

 

[juniorm33]

None of those are sold with as full desktop.
And a lot of people are weary of linux.
I thought the OP was an interesting question, but got derailed, don't know if it got back on track as stopped reading it.

 

[VRAndy]

And yet, the instant someone is told "X runs Linux" all they seem to hear is "X is going to be a pain for non-techy people to use". Why? As far as the Pandora is concerned, if you were to hand it to someone and not tell them it runs Linux, just let it boot to the minimenu and let them have a go at it, they would be none the wiser, and just assume it was some custom operating system exactly as they think of the Wii, PS3, XBoxen, and TIVO.

I don't think that the question was about the minimenu.

 

[second exodous]

I'm just glad you didn't choose ubuntu. IMHO, you don't really learn anything with ubuntu. Although, I am rather surprised and commend you for choosing slack.

-God Ginrai

That's what I was refering to in the other posts. That you learn nothing about Ubuntu is utter bullshit. I've rarely used anything more aside from Ubuntu but I know as much as my friend that messed with arch, gentoo, etc. I even know things he doesn't about Linux. But the fact that the guys behind each of the distros (devs and users too) keep fighting between them for no apparent reason is one major hurdle in the progress of the OS.

This is like a standard classroom scenario. If you take a computer programming class and they only teach part of the book, there are the people who will learn nothing, there are the people who will learn only what is taught, and then there are the people who will learn the extra stuff from the book.

Ubuntu teaches a GUI chapter from the Linux book. Anyone who takes the ubuntu "class" will be either the people who didn't learn anything, (those that quit) the ones that only learned what was taught, (those that know very little more about Linux than Windows even though they are using a Linux distro) and those that learn the extra stuff from the book. (Those that actually learn a lot about Linux) Ubuntu only teaches that one chapter which is very similar to the GUI chapter from the Windows book, whereas other distros like Arch and Gentoo teach many more chapters from the Linux book.

The less material a class teaches, the less the majority of students will learn. If you have learned more about Linux then your friend learned, then you are one of those students who goes above and beyond the class material in the ubuntu class.

-God Ginrai

Eh, I agree and disagree with this. I used to be a Gentoo user, I learned a lot about how Linux works but I spent a lot of time setting up my system and constantly tweaking it. I used Ubuntu once and although it did not run as fast or even as stable as Gentoo it was easy to install and much more secure and stable than going back to windows. As I have used Ubuntu for a few years I've forgot a lot what I learned about Linux with Gentoo but I'm a computer user that falls between a basic user and an expert user, so Ubuntu is good enough for me. I also just don't have as much time as I did before, that is probably the main reason.

If you want stability and security but don't want to learn every little nut and bolt of Linux Ubuntu is fine. If you want to learn everything there is to know about Linux then distros Arch, Slack, and Gentoo are a good fit.

I look at it like this: I have a car to get from point a to point b, I like to have fun on that drive as well, but I don't want to learn how to take my car apart and reassemble it. Yes, it would be better for me in the long run to know everything about my car but I just don't have the time/interest. Actually when I first started really using Linux(Gentoo) I was at best buy and at the tech counter a woman was taking her XP machine in to have them install the service packs and update the virus software. I said that was insane because it was just click on 'next' in the update window and he used the mechanic analogy and I didn't get it. I get it now but I can at least change the oil in my car.

 

[God Ginrai]

I'm just glad you didn't choose ubuntu. IMHO, you don't really learn anything with ubuntu. Although, I am rather surprised and commend you for choosing slack.

-God Ginrai

That's what I was refering to in the other posts. That you learn nothing about Ubuntu is utter bullshit. I've rarely used anything more aside from Ubuntu but I know as much as my friend that messed with arch, gentoo, etc. I even know things he doesn't about Linux. But the fact that the guys behind each of the distros (devs and users too) keep fighting between them for no apparent reason is one major hurdle in the progress of the OS.

This is like a standard classroom scenario. If you take a computer programming class and they only teach part of the book, there are the people who will learn nothing, there are the people who will learn only what is taught, and then there are the people who will learn the extra stuff from the book.

Ubuntu teaches a GUI chapter from the Linux book. Anyone who takes the ubuntu "class" will be either the people who didn't learn anything, (those that quit) the ones that only learned what was taught, (those that know very little more about Linux than Windows even though they are using a Linux distro) and those that learn the extra stuff from the book. (Those that actually learn a lot about Linux) Ubuntu only teaches that one chapter which is very similar to the GUI chapter from the Windows book, whereas other distros like Arch and Gentoo teach many more chapters from the Linux book.

The less material a class teaches, the less the majority of students will learn. If you have learned more about Linux then your friend learned, then you are one of those students who goes above and beyond the class material in the ubuntu class.

-God Ginrai

Eh, I agree and disagree with this. I used to be a Gentoo user, I learned a lot about how Linux works but I spent a lot of time setting up my system and constantly tweaking it. I used Ubuntu once and although it did not run as fast or even as stable as Gentoo it was easy to install and much more secure and stable than going back to windows. As I have used Ubuntu for a few years I've forgot a lot what I learned about Linux with Gentoo but I'm a computer user that falls between a basic user and an expert user, so Ubuntu is good enough for me. I also just don't have as much time as I did before, that is probably the main reason.

If you want stability and security but don't want to learn every little nut and bolt of Linux Ubuntu is fine. If you want to learn everything there is to know about Linux then distros Arch, Slack, and Gentoo.

I look at it like this: I have a car to get from point a and b, I like to have fun on that drive as well, but I don't want to learn how to take my car apart and reassemble it. Yes, it would be better for me in the long run to know everything about my car but I just don't have the time/interest.

I never said that you can't enjoy ubuntu. Obviously since there are people that use it, there must be people that enjoy it. That's the same for the class that doesn't teach much of anything. Most people like it because it is a bird class.

-God Ginrai

 

[second exodous]

I never said that you can't enjoy ubuntu. Obviously since there are people that use it, there must be people that enjoy it. That's the same for the class that doesn't teach much of anything. Most people like it because it is a bird class.

-God Ginrai

Oh, I thought you were glad that Pandora didn't have Ubuntu, I wouldn't have replied like that had I known that wasn't what you were talking about. I dug back in the forum when I read slack in the post that was being replied to. I'd have to agree with you about Dunny choosing slack for the first Linux. I'll never regret choosing Gentoo as my first real Linux that wiped windows completely off my drive. Like I said, I've forgotten a lot but what I did learn still helped.

Analogies never really work anyway, no one is taking a programing class or fixing a car when they install Linux. Well, Linux is great for programing and there are tools in Linux to hack the computers in your car, but you know what I mean.

 

[God Ginrai]

Oh, I thought you were glad that Pandora didn't have Ubuntu, [...]

Well, I can't lie, I am glad because I personally dislike the distro. However, I was not saying that. I was only commenting on his choice.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

None of those are sold with as full desktop.
And a lot of people are weary of linux.
I thought the OP was an interesting question, but got derailed, don't know if it got back on track as stopped reading it.

I don't think that the question was about the minimenu.

The question was about how people were coping with Linux, as if Linux has some property about it that automatically makes it somehow more difficult than anything else. I stand by my theory: hand it to someone reasonably competent, don't tell them it runs Linux, and they'll never know. I'll even expand that to the desktop if you are ready to lie and say it's a custom file browser designed to run on the Pandora hardware.

 

[juniorm33]

Yet all those netbooks got returned originally because people tried it, and thought I don't want linux.
Now it may not be hard, in fact it may only take a few minutes to get used to, but there is
1, a perception
2, a difference.

On another device it could be asked I'm used to linux, how did you find moving to Windows 7.
I'm a Windows 7 newbie, how do you other newbies find it?

Sometimes all people need is a bit of reassurance.

 

[Aninhumer]

Yet all those netbooks got returned originally because people tried it, and thought I don't want linux.

I seem to remember those figures were highly suspicious.

In any case though, the Pandora is not being sold as a replacement for a full computer, and people will not expect it to be the same.
If people buy a phone which can view PDFs or play music or whatever, they don't expect it to work just like Adobe Reader or WMP.
Frankly, I think a proper XFCE desktop is probably much easier for people to learn than some of the interfaces I've seen on phones.

 

[juniorm33]

Yet all those netbooks got returned originally because people tried it, and thought I don't want linux.

I seem to remember those figures were highly suspicious.

In any case though, the Pandora is not being sold as a replacement for a full computer, and people will not expect it to be the same.
If people buy a phone which can view PDFs or play music or whatever, they don't expect it to work just like Adobe Reader or WMP.
Frankly, I think a proper XFCE desktop is probably much easier for people to learn than some of the interfaces I've seen on phones.

Not disagreeing, just pointing out that something just being different is enough to to make people ask "how do other people" find it.
I don't believe the OP meant for it to be an OS wars, just a question to see how others in a similar situation is finding it.

Edit: PS it is a replacement of a full computer for me!

 

[second exodous]

Yet all those netbooks got returned originally because people tried it, and thought I don't want linux.

I seem to remember those figures were highly suspicious.

They weren't just suspicious they were an outright lie. Microsoft said that 50% of all Linux netbooks were being returned but when that question was put to Dell, a manufacturer that still loads Linux as an option, their figures were much lower. The fact alone that Linux is still loaded onto netbooks is enough for any rational person to realize that the number of returns was greatly exaggerated. If returns were even 10% Dell would probably dump Linux completely as returns are a pain. You wouldn't keep sending out a product that gets returned for any reason without trying to fix it, in this case getting rid of Linux, so logically those figures were a lie.

It just boggles my mind what people will believe. . .

 

[SomeGuy99]

I believe it was me who derailed this thread, sorry. It wasn't intentional though!

 

[trapef]

This thread has gotten so lengthy and detailed that I suspect a few newbies with a Pandora would likely be put off by the off topic responses.

I appreciate all the experienced users views on the varying OS and flavour out there, but can we keep on topic please and actually find out their views.

This isn't meant to offend anyone, but I'm not overly experienced with Linux other than a bit of Ubuntu and am intrigued as to actual feedback.

 

[SomeGuy99]

This thread has gotten so lengthy and detailed that I suspect a few newbies with a Pandora would likely be put off by the off topic responses.

I appreciate all the experienced users views on the varying OS and flavour out there, but can we keep on topic please and actually find out their views.

This isn't meant to offend anyone, but I'm not overly experienced with Linux other than a bit of Ubuntu and am intrigued as to actual feedback.

A mod should probably fork this thread. Again, apologies... lack of foresight. h34r:

 

[second exodous]

I saw this thread when it was under 10 posts and thought 'wow, this is a storm brewing' but didn't post until page 3 because I thought it might be a good discussion if people didn't get into what they thought of Linux in general like the first poster did. The name alone, 'How are the Linux Newbies Coping?' just implies that because it is not what the original poster uses it must be difficult.

Skimming this thread I noticed there are very few if any people staying on topic, it is just people saying they don't like Linux or they like Linux. This is like asking people how they are coping with their Andorid or Palm phone because they use Windows or OSX on their PC. Also, the ratio of people that frequent this forum that own a Pandora to those that don't is still pretty much in the favor of those that don't so you won't see many posting on topic in this thread.

From the get go it was implied that Linux was not easy to use and the thread starter stated that Linux sent him running 'away screaming like a little girl'. OSes are a sensitive subject as computers are now an indispensable part of peoples lives, you can't start a thread with a negative viewpoint on something that people feel strongly about and expect it to not get hairy. People start posting incorrect data and people correct it then someone flings mud and it derails.

This thread is too soon, not enough 'posting' people have their Pandora yet and the first post looked a little biased. People are staying civil but I don't see this tread being productive, I'm sorry. Go to the help section and see what people are posting there to get an idea of what is going on.

Edit: Post number 5 sums this thread up:

This was never going to be a productive thread.