Finding software opportunities and common ground

levi

Still fresh, damnit!
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
11,831
Location
Somewhere off the coast of the EU
So if we have lots of KDE libraries, Kolourpaint, and if we have lots of Gnome libraries, then gpaint, else something like mtpaint. But we also have: mypaint pinta rgbpaint tuxpaint xpaint
I'm assuming since we're going mate, we're likely to have more gtk libs than qt ones. Gnu Paint seems basically dead. Painta is a GIMP fork but seems to have maintained most of its features, including layers and most of the tools, so I don't honestly see the benefit. Tuxpaint seems to be a kids painting program, including sound effects for almost everything. rgbpaint seems to be a mtpaint style thing. That basically leaves mtpaint and gimp as the two options it seems to me.
 

spud42

Very Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
645
Age
58
Location
Brisbane,Australia.
There isn't much else pre-installed with the image though. This isn't a consumer Windows laptop or Android phone where there are paid program placements and force-installed non-removable programs clutter the landscape. The interface is, so far, very clean.

So, I don't get what you guys are all on about. There is no appreciable 'bloat'. If users want a stripped down command-line only interface because they're just so elite that all 'normal stuff' is beneath them, the packages are all in the git - they're welcome to roll their own - which should not be beyond their elite capabilities. Where I draw the line, though, is this concept that all Pyra users should be assumed to be in the elite camp and should be forced to see nothing at startup but a command line with a few unrecognized niche superuser packages hiding unnamed somewhere without even a note telling the poor sods just how screwed they are. Getting started should not require side-loading or even downloading then breaking glass to root to run some anonymous users .sh file to 'make it just like mine!' Support should be based around a -baseline- set of known working programs that are friendly enough for -anyone who cares to honestly try- to get started with.
this... this is why Linux is not main stream. the attitude that if you dont use the console you shouldnt use linux.
The Pyra needs to be accessible by anyone. It wont only be Elite Users that buy this device. BTW ther is nothing wrong with a GUI.
 
Last edited:

Elw3

ƐʍlƎ
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
1,338
Well no that is bullshit. Linux IS mainstream if we compare with BSD and other systems.
And no, we dont count windows here because instead of users it is used by brainless droids claiming their operate system is facebook.
 

Elw3

ƐʍlƎ
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
1,338
I have, you have, we booth deserve this penality code now: while true; do sl; done;
 

docbroke

Banned
Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
318
Age
38
Location
India
A basic set of applications required to get even a novice Linux user from first power button press to 'look, I did something neat' does not require a pile of bloat.

Firefox web browser. Check. There is no other appropriate alternative. For starters, nothing else in the Debian repository (required) has the name recognition for users to know what the hell it is (required). Every 'alternative browser' mentioned above, I had to look up 'what the hell is this?'. They are not in the debian repository either. So, scratch 'em all. Firefox as stock wins hands down.

Synaptic so they can install a few bits and bobs from a searchable reference database. Check. No, just forcing everyone to use command line apt is not a solution. No, using some person's side project only maintained in their own git and an obscure chatroom is not a viable solution. Synaptic as stock wins hands down.

A few I'm not quite as sure about whether they should be included or not, but currently -are- on the Pyra prototype OS images:
Gimp
Libre Office
I don't see either of those as being 'bloat' though. Yes, they are both pretty big packages. That said, though, they're both 'best of breed' and are both easily uninstallable via synaptic for those of you too elite to allow these 'consumer packages' on your desktop.

There isn't much else pre-installed with the image though. This isn't a consumer Windows laptop or Android phone where there are paid program placements and force-installed non-removable programs clutter the landscape. The interface is, so far, very clean.

So, I don't get what you guys are all on about. There is no appreciable 'bloat'. If users want a stripped down command-line only interface because they're just so elite that all 'normal stuff' is beneath them, the packages are all in the git - they're welcome to roll their own - which should not be beyond their elite capabilities. Where I draw the line, though, is this concept that all Pyra users should be assumed to be in the elite camp and should be forced to see nothing at startup but a command line with a few unrecognized niche superuser packages hiding unnamed somewhere without even a note telling the poor sods just how screwed they are. Getting started should not require side-loading or even downloading then breaking glass to root to run some anonymous users .sh file to 'make it just like mine!' Support should be based around a -baseline- set of known working programs that are friendly enough for -anyone who cares to honestly try- to get started with.


If you are expecting complete bug free integration of the effectively infinite collection of potential Linux programs that can be installed, then you clearly haven't used Linux. That fantasy simply does not exist. However, the software integration under Linux is already better than you'll find on ~99% of consumer electronic devices on the market. Bugs are to be expected. In this case, bugs that the users care enough about are expected to be sorted out and squished by dev members of the user community. Nothing new there.
You are absolutely correct when you say that you don't know what many are talking about here. If you look at the menu and say " Oh ! there is only firefox, gimp and libreoffice, no bloat here ", you are greatly mistaken. :)
 
Last edited:

docbroke

Banned
Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
318
Age
38
Location
India
this... this is why Linux is not main stream. the attitude that if you dont use the console you shouldnt use linux.
The Pyra needs to be accessible by anyone. It wont only be Elite Users that buy this device. BTW there is nothing wrong with a GUI.
Who said that ? Linux is free for everyone, and there are may excellent user friendly linux distributions that comes with nice user friendly GUI. There is no truth in a argument that Linux is not mainstream because you have to use console. On other hand console is not a weakness but a strength of linux, but if somebody don't want to use it is not compulsory.

Now to the actual question, no one using linux cares if it is mainstream or not. AFAIK linux devs don't care to sell their stuff. Many of them just create it because they want to use it themselves, and every user is free to use whichever app they want to use, there are no commercial pressure or restrictions to use certain app or avoid others or warranty void if you use sudo. After so much freedom and choice if someone wants to use apple or windows what can I say about them :cool:

To make it clear I didn't ask everyone to use minimal Linux on Pyra, but I ask to make it available as an alternative image, so those who want to use it have an option, it may also help for bug fixing, as it will avoid bugs related with complicated DE setup.
 

Swordfish II

Very Active Member
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
877
You are absolutely correct when you say that you don't know what many are talking about here. If you look at the menu and say " Oh ! there is only firefox, gimp and libreoffice, no bloat here ", you are greatly mistaken. :)
It shouldn't shock you that some people don't know what they are talking about.

He is content to once again simply insult people by calling anyone who likes neat and tidy menus and system "too elite," since it doesn't conscribe to his views.

How ironic that he talks about "you shouldn't need to be "elite,"" then goes into bugs... You can't dumb everything down to plug and play when there will likely be (and already are) bugs the user will have to fix.

It's almost like this isn't a lowest common denominator mainstream device and that may take some effort, research and knowledge if you don't have a linux background...
 
Last edited:

Grench

Forum Addict!
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
6,421
Wow. I'm quite impressed by all of this self appointed governance and authority over who is or is not entitled to have or be allowed to use a Pyra - or Linux in general for that matter. I doubt many of the above posters are going to be overly willing to help hand-hold the inevitable new-to-Linux users that we -should welcome- into our community. Yet, before the thing even ships, are demanding special support considerations for their own niche of a niche use case based on the idea that they're too advanced to be saddled with such pedestrian applications that a normal user would expect to find on a normal computer.

I have been using Linux as my sole OS for over ten years. Still, I do not claim to be an 'expert user'. I also support Debian and Mint on a dozen desktops and laptops for extended family and friends. It is this second aspect that makes me inclined to state that we -do- need to have some basic applications present on the device as it ships. To not do so will quickly spiral into a support nightmare.

The above posters implications that 'normals' should not have Pyras because they 'don't deserve them' is patently mean spirited. Having the device ship with a known baseline and set of applications that we can instruct new users to point and click through should not negatively impact any of you in any actual measurable form. Demanding that a special OS image be built -just for you- because you are just too special is a rather silly and selfish assertion. You want a minimal or special image? YOU build one. There is nothing stopping you. As far as I know, all the needed pieces are there. Isn't that the point you're trying to make? You want it your way, roll your own. Want others to have it your way? Roll it, publish it and commit to updating and providing support for it ongoing. Placing some requirement on the Pyra project to supply, update and maintain a special stripped down OS for a handful of people is simply a waste of resources that should be going to making that baseline experience -better-.
 

ClockworkCoder

Chaotic Neutral
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
1,326
Location
Menzoberranzan
this... this is why Linux is not main stream. the attitude that if you dont use the console you shouldnt use linux.
The Pyra needs to be accessible by anyone. It wont only be Elite Users that buy this device. BTW ther is nothing wrong with a GUI.
Whether Linux is "mainstream" is neither here nor there, many distributions are at least as intuitive as Windows, if not more so... tech-phobic members of my family could attest to that.

And, the Pyra _will_ be accessible by anyone - you can be certain that ED will make that a priority (he really wants to sell them), and there's a good community to help.
 

DoodleMonger

Still Fresh
Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Messages
29
I expect there are two primary concerns when making a default distribution/base decision:

- sales
- support

Having something pre-built with useful and interesting programs will let someone feel immediately empowered. Purchase-regret must be diminished.

Have a good balance between useless and bloated is important. Too many applications, especially too much variety (when "my email doesn't work" needs support to ask "which email program?") makes life hard. This is why distributions take a risk when they release variations. It's also annoying to update (and test) a larger/broader base.

--

I would also add the importance of having "showcase" applications so that when I'm hanging out in my library and I get "what's that?!" I can turn it around and show a video, a suite of applications, etc. One SD card with curated packages -- which I can optionally purchase -- would do this very well.

Curated SD cards would be fantastic. It is a useful additional perspective to treat the device like a handheld console with "SD cartridges".
 

comradekingu

Glowing ember
Joined
Apr 15, 2011
Messages
5,025
Website
portfolio.anotheragency.no
Yep, we have to undergo the obvious pitfalls, and no, those are part of the consideration. This is something that helps, consider it as such.

Bloat is a problem, and the thing is, fortunately every single user on here seems to agree. My idea is to try to find the Pyras of the software world, that it makes sense to ship, either in a minimal sense (idea already shaky), or default, or full install.
A lot of potential, solving the idea of getting to many of anything.
Minimal is always there, default is not going to be full, and full is for the rest.

Ideally something that widens the horizon of people that would come to know about the Pyra. I think we will do well to go a bit nerdier up to 2500, seeing as nerdier users are not as dangerous, because they are predictable.

Predictably speaking, ending up with one chat e-mail and one e-mail client isn't going to cause a huge support burden, and it is all community support anyway. There were multiple editors on the Pandora, and not a single question failed to mention which one was used(?).

It's weird to hear someone say a project is a lost cause when they are using a derivative of it.
I'd be worried about the barriers and extra jargon a user would be presented with if they launched Tor Browser over Firefox. Browsing would be instantly slower due to the proxy nature of the Onion Network and the last thing I want someone booting up a Pyra to think is that the connectivity is bad.
The Asus eee 701 released in 2007 with Linux only had Firefox, OpenOffice and Thunderbird and it was fine.
We are also not in 2007, for better and for worse. We not being any of those options.

Firefox is losing marketshare, Tor-browser is gaining marketshare. That alone should be a powerful reminder what sort of current year it is.
We can run relays, and we can keep the idea of privacy to the tune of also offering not losing your personal data at every turn of what is a very web-centered world. Fairphone shipped 30k+ devices, arguably under false pretenses, and against better judgement, and with not a whole lot more ethical ways. But they _focused_ on something that differentiates their project. And they got the PR right. We aren't good at PR, but we _are_ good at doing hard work. So offloading the PR to others is as good as it will get.

We probably won't get a mention from FF, and even if that was the case, it would fill the 2500 mark with lots of potential people going for a refund when things are going to be rougher than after 2500 in terms of polish.

I _really_ like the idea of something I contributed to making it onto the Pyra. I have made contributions for that reason alone. I also like of sharing the idea of hardware opportunity to those projects that help out the software side of things. What better way is there than the publicity of bringing users, contributors and donations their way? How broad could it get, while maintaining expectations from incoming customers?

What about photographers and portable high-end audio listeners?
(I added darktable and for music; Rhythmbox, Klementine, but what are the options poeple use?

That isn't corruption or some underhanded sly craig-like move, it is (IMO) as good as it gets. Better than the advertising the Pyra can't afford to do in the first place anyways.
 
Last edited:

Wally

I am a banana!
Staff member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
2,963
Age
33
Location
Melbourne, Australia
It's going to be impossible to get an exact match for everyone as we all have different ideas, levels of experience with computers and hardware. I believe we need to stick to stuff that's mainstream, works Cross-platform, not a project that's dead or unmaintained and for developers, something we can contribute back to if we find a bug.


Minimal, non-default install - Absolutely bare minimal to get the thing working for those who actually can install

Default install - Should be enough to demo the power of the unit (Think if you're EvilDragon and you want to show off what the Pyra can do (Of course ED will need other things like emulators but let's not distribute the unit with emulators)

Email client - Thunderbird
Internet Browser - Firefox, Chromium or Vivaldi Browser (Tor should not be included as most corporate portals are watching for the Tor Browser).
Productivity Suite - LibreOffice
Image Manipulation Suite - Gimp
Video thing - VLC
Utilities - Gparted

I don't feel we need any other meta-packages at this point. We don't really know what people want to run and certainly don't want to run into any roadblocks with software that have no or minimal support.
 
Last edited:

DoodleMonger

Still Fresh
Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Messages
29
Tor? No. Please don't consider another layer of complexity.

Just so you know, I had read an article about a guy (in Germany?) who was accused (arrested I believe) of "someone else's" internet usage through a Tor share that he was participating in.
 

comradekingu

Glowing ember
Joined
Apr 15, 2011
Messages
5,025
Website
portfolio.anotheragency.no
I think so having followed it for the better part of two decades. It is undisputed by even people working in and for Mozilla. Statistical noise in the greater scheme of significance does not make the trend invalid. Chrome is unarguably dominant on every platform.
The Tor-Browser user agent says it is a different browser running on Microsoft Windows btw. Add in Vivaldi which lies about it too, with the users that change it manually, and you still don't have more than 4-5% of users, and that is being charitable.
Do-not-track is the greater anomaly in the recent years, but FF was losing marketshare long before then.
Just about every Linux-distro is shipping FF, and none of them have seen great popularity or mention for that reason alone.

The Pyra dares to be as different as it gets for the better, going along with that on the software side is consistent.

@DoodleMonger
Whatever you are talking about, it is anecdotal. And it isn't even something one does when using the Tor-browser… Good I suppose.

Saying the Tor-browser is illegal is worse than saying emulators are.

Complexity is the current web. You actually load less of it, and make your like a whooole lot less complex by not leaking data left and right.
Tor-Browser isn't that slow nowadays. Remember most customers are from central Europe or the US.
Between what you like, and what I like, there is choice.
What we both like is more users. If we do two browsers, or a variant of Tor-browser in full, we both win.

@Wally Most business portals are not looking for Tor-traffic to block it. I have never had that happen. It even works on airplanes.
I don't think the Tor-browser is _the only_ browser. Just as GIMP isn't a very barebones pixelart editor. I think the message, the shared interests, and the publicity is worth way more than some confusion over questions on the forum that don't disclose the web-browser right away. I have installed Tor-browser on the machines of very basic users when I worked at an electronics chain. Every single one got the Tor-browser.

Well-known stuff brings a degree of familiarity. LibreOffice seems a clear choice in that department. The document foundation is even cool enough to include me, (to their credit, not mine).

Are we a bunch of corporate people though? Are any of the orders up to 2500 going to be those types of business customers?
Vivaldi is the only company buying their employees devices of similar type, and they picked the Gemini. Ask about the Gemini here and you get right to the bottom of why it, and consequently Vivaldi, is short of what the Pyra is.

Lets say you lose those potential customers. How good publicity is shipping or endorsing Tor-Browser in some way as the first hardware product capable of running it? Tor-browser not in default makes it still a good fit for full?

I am a Vivaldi contributor, I know people there, and I am partial to scandinavian things. However it isn't libre software. That takes away from the sales pitch rather than adding to it. I am not even sure you can even ship it without an agreement(?)

Are there more photographer tools needed, and what are the audio-players of choice?
 
Last edited:

Djoga'Ro

moonstruck
Joined
Apr 3, 2016
Messages
1,142
Offline Getting-Started tutorial link on the desktop, a huge Arrow and something like "Don't know where to start? Click here!" on the desktop.
Content then would be, here you get notifications, here's the system tray and by default there's ..., here you find installed application software organised like ..., with the GUI package manager xxx you can see what's installed, install software from the repository and uninstall shit. And further there software recommendations could be made sorted by category.
This way you can leave the bigger things off the standard installation and make sure, everyone who wants wo use LibreOffice or GIMP etc has used the package manager at least once.
 
Top