Finding software opportunities and common ground

[pimaster]

You say:

I think Firefox/Mozilla is a lost cause, and I have much more faith in Tor-browser for example.

but

The way most people use Tor is with Tor Browser, which is a version of Firefox that fixes many privacy issues.

It's weird to hear someone say a project is a lost cause when they are using a derivative of it.
I'd be worried about the barriers and extra jargon a user would be presented with if they launched Tor Browser over Firefox. Browsing would be instantly slower due to the proxy nature of the Onion Network and the last thing I want someone booting up a Pyra to think is that the connectivity is bad.
Whilst I'm not excited that document editing has been moving to the web, I think a web browser, terminal and software centre are all a desktop needs. Maybe a game to show of the sweet controls.

Once CPU scaling, hibernate, audio processing, video processing and the myriad of other little software/hardware issues have been solved, then I think default experience for fresh users could be looked at.
Unless you are skilled in this area and are wanting to take it on with feedback?
The Asus eee 701 released in 2007 with Linux only had Firefox, OpenOffice and Thunderbird and it was fine.

 

[docbroke]

I agree that tor is not good default for browser. It is slow plus it fails with many sites ( those controlled by cloudfare, you may have to solve many captchas). However firefox itself is slow on pyra, maybe due to way it is compiled in debian armhf.
So my suggestion is to recompile latest version of firefox and see how it fares. I dont like closed source alternatives like vivaldi or some google controlled project.

 

[Swordfish II]

Minimal, a DE, filemanager, and support for all Pyra hardware, along with maybe network manager or the like and synaptic and a graphical installer like the pnd shop

If someone wants specific stuff they can use synaptic/dbp shop.

 

[Grench]

Minimal, a DE, filemanager, and support for all Pyra hardware, along with maybe network manager or the like and synaptic and a graphical installer like the pnd shop

If someone wants specific stuff they can use synaptic/dbp shop.

How about shipping with a newb friendly set of default core applications and you folks that want your own special configuration can adjust from there?

"Consensus among experts" never happens.

 

[docbroke]

We already have default newb friendly setup, it shouldn't be difficult to maintain one minimal image, so who likes that can get it and flash.
Installing default and removing all unwanted things is tedious job, just to give example it may be possible that removing mate will also remove networkmanager and x-server, and after that it would be difficult to connect wifi using wpa-supplicant and dhclient to install all needed softwares.

Post automatically merged: Jan 9, 2020

In short it is easy to add packages to minimal install to make default ( one apt install command only ) but removing packages may not be easy or clean especially when user is not sure about additional packages that are addes to minimal debian.

 

[ible]

i disagree that we should be maintaining two pyra images (at least officially). ship it with newb friendly stuff; advanced people can hack on/off things that they want/don't want. we are running with very few people who can maintain these sorts of things. if a community-supported minimal image could be provided, great, but it shouldn't be "easy" to get at for newbs.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

Absolutely agree on the newbie friendly install. Just the basics to get people up and running with the mimimum of fuss.

My personal preference is something "minimal", although that only pertains to the UI, and the problem there is that more advanced users will often want their own very specific setup. I don't particularly switch desktops often, although I have moved again from i3 to a bspwm/sxhkd/polybar combo which although I personally now love, would never want to " inflict" it on anyone but the curious.

What I'm a little interested in, is proprietary codecs (video, audio, archival, etc) that might be installed... I'm assuming nothing proprietary will be installed by default, or will it?

 

[hns]

EvilDragon: And for people who never used APT before, we can also create a small graphical UI which lets the user choose to switch to "full" install, for example.

For people who never used APT you may be looking for something like: https://packages.debian.org/buster/synaptic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_(software)

 

[elw3]

Ever heard of apturl?
If you write apt:someprogram somewhere on a webpage you can click on that and get asked if you want to install it.
The ubuntu wiki uses that. Its a great way to give easy access to programs for newbies.
Instead of adding an extra program you can just make a new wiki category and have a bookmark for it in the default browser.
Furthermore it isnt restricted to the os, one can click on programs on the ubuntu wiki and they in return can use our wiki.
The bodhi distro for example goes a step further and uses this page https://www.bodhilinux.com/a/ instead shipping with a graphical package manager.
And most who have a debian based os can just go there and click straight on install.
This is also cool for forum posts, instead putting links to where to find stuff or links to the downloads you can just have an install button right in the forum post.

Technically this works by calling xdg-open (the open with... routine) from the browser thus _should_ need no set up. That said some wont be able to use it anyway cause browsers, configs, packagers and unexplainable reasons.

Edit: The forum software doesnt allow this kind of link...

 

[Djoga'Ro]

If you write apt:someprogram somewhere on a webpage you can click on that and get asked if you want to install it.

I can see the posters already. "Don't drink and surf!"

 

[Grench]

For people who never used APT you may be looking for something like: https://packages.debian.org/buster/synaptic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_(software)

Synaptic is present and working on my Pyra installed with the OS image.

 

[Swordfish II]

We already have default newb friendly setup, it shouldn't be difficult to maintain one minimal image, so who likes that can get it and flash.
Installing default and removing all unwanted things is tedious job, just to give example it may be possible that removing mate will also remove networkmanager and x-server, and after that it would be difficult to connect wifi using wpa-supplicant and dhclient to install all needed softwares.

Post automatically merged: Jan 9, 2020

In short it is easy to add packages to minimal install to make default ( one apt install command only ) but removing packages may not be easy or clean especially when user is not sure about additional packages that are addes to minimal debian.

Exactly. A perfect example is the default raspberry pi image. There is so much bloat it takes longer to remove all the stuff (and it breaks stuff) than getting a cli only image and installing sudo, DE etc on up.

I have said it before, but the target audience for this device is someone with at least basic linux knowledge, not joe sixpack who hasn't heard of it and even if they have, don't want it because "old specs and not Windows," so why have the OS on that level? It doesn't make sense especially when the Pyra will likely ship with a bunch of bugs...

Again with synaptic and the dbp shop, installing stuff on top of a minimal image is easy. It's alot harder to remove stuff from the base build when there are meta packages and dependencies that remove a ton of stuff with every sudo apt-get remove.

 

[Grench]

There is so much bloat

A basic set of applications required to get even a novice Linux user from first power button press to 'look, I did something neat' does not require a pile of bloat.

Firefox web browser. Check. There is no other appropriate alternative. For starters, nothing else in the Debian repository (required) has the name recognition for users to know what the hell it is (required). Every 'alternative browser' mentioned above, I had to look up 'what the hell is this?'. They are not in the debian repository either. So, scratch 'em all. Firefox as stock wins hands down.

Synaptic so they can install a few bits and bobs from a searchable reference database. Check. No, just forcing everyone to use command line apt is not a solution. No, using some person's side project only maintained in their own git and an obscure chatroom is not a viable solution. Synaptic as stock wins hands down.

A few I'm not quite as sure about whether they should be included or not, but currently -are- on the Pyra prototype OS images:
Gimp
Libre Office
I don't see either of those as being 'bloat' though. Yes, they are both pretty big packages. That said, though, they're both 'best of breed' and are both easily uninstallable via synaptic for those of you too elite to allow these 'consumer packages' on your desktop.

There isn't much else pre-installed with the image though. This isn't a consumer Windows laptop or Android phone where there are paid program placements and force-installed non-removable programs clutter the landscape. The interface is, so far, very clean.

So, I don't get what you guys are all on about. There is no appreciable 'bloat'. If users want a stripped down command-line only interface because they're just so elite that all 'normal stuff' is beneath them, the packages are all in the git - they're welcome to roll their own - which should not be beyond their elite capabilities. Where I draw the line, though, is this concept that all Pyra users should be assumed to be in the elite camp and should be forced to see nothing at startup but a command line with a few unrecognized niche superuser packages hiding unnamed somewhere without even a note telling the poor sods just how screwed they are. Getting started should not require side-loading or even downloading then breaking glass to root to run some anonymous users .sh file to 'make it just like mine!' Support should be based around a -baseline- set of known working programs that are friendly enough for -anyone who cares to honestly try- to get started with.

It doesn't make sense especially when the Pyra will likely ship with a bunch of bugs...

If you are expecting complete bug free integration of the effectively infinite collection of potential Linux programs that can be installed, then you clearly haven't used Linux. That fantasy simply does not exist. However, the software integration under Linux is already better than you'll find on ~99% of consumer electronic devices on the market. Bugs are to be expected. In this case, bugs that the users care enough about are expected to be sorted out and squished by dev members of the user community. Nothing new there.

 

[FBnil]

but removing packages may not be easy or clean especially when user is not sure about additional packages that are addes to minimal debian.

Packages that have not been installed specifically by name, but pulled in with another package as a dependency can automatically be cleaned with autoremove; so it would be as easy as:

apt-get remove $package
apt-get autoremove

For the ones that want to remove even more, without crashing the system, maybe also:

deborphan - program that can find unused packages, e.g. libraries
gtkorphan - A graphical tool to find and remove orphaned libraries

Post automatically merged: Jan 9, 2020

I would not like Gimp on the Pyra system (I use it to photoshop the images I post from time to time), rather, an easier version. So if we have lots of KDE libraries, Kolourpaint, and if we have lots of Gnome libraries, then gpaint, else something like mtpaint. But we also have: mypaint pinta rgbpaint tuxpaint xpaint

 

[levi]

Packages that have not been installed specifically by name, but pulled in with another package as a dependency can automatically be cleaned with autoremove

I don't think that's the problem being posited here. If a package is a dependency on another package you still have installed, surely you probably still want to keep it? At least removing it might well cause problems when you next update your system I'd have thought.

The problem as quoted was that when you remove Mate with dependencies, it may well take X, and that may take network manager. I'd hope that wouldn't knock you off the network, but it's not something I honestly know. If you wanted to remain without X but still wanted to use similar code you'd probably want nmcli installed somehow, but if you were planning to install a different DE then probably the best thing to do would be to install the new DE first before removing Mate, or if space doesn't allow, remove Mate without removing dependencies, hope you remain online, install your new DE, and then remove orphans. Oh well, you can always reflash if you get in a complete mess I guess.

 

[sm0kew0n]

I might have the wrong end of the stick here but I think comradekingu was canvasing opinion on where we might try and forge relationships with other projects in order to raise the profile of the pyra, not on which softwares were best to ship with.

I've been thinking that the pyra, with it's gaming controls, could be used like all these other SBC retro game systems, i.e with a retropie/emulationstation image so that when a user turns it on it just boots straight into a gaming environment. I know most people here could achieve this easily but is there any mileage in approaching the retropie community to champion the pyra as the 'ultimate' in retro games devices and to create a pyra specific os image for the purposes of selling more units?

I dunno, like I said, stick end wrong......

 

[elw3]

I would not like Gimp on the Pyra system (I use it to photoshop the images I post from time to time)

And sometimes i use books to google things.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

I prefer to use nmtui.

 

[ClockworkCoder]

I would not like Gimp on the Pyra system (I use it to photoshop the images I post from time to time), rather, an easier version

Correction: "I use it to *Gimp the images"

Incidentally, there is a fork of Gimp that was initially created just to give it a different (more "acceptable") name. People can be so shallow sometimes (guys at work also snicker about Git and Latex - I haven't the energy to inform them they pronounce the latter incorrectly...)

Actually a good paint package might be fun with the stylus? I don't mind Gimp as much as I used to, but any recommendations for lean painting packages that work well with the Pyra would be much appreciated.

 

[docbroke]

Packages that have not been installed specifically by name, but pulled in with another package as a dependency can automatically be cleaned with autoremove; so it would be as easy as:

apt-get remove $package
apt-get autoremove

For the ones that want to remove even more, without crashing the system, maybe also:

deborphan - program that can find unused packages, e.g. libraries
gtkorphan - A graphical tool to find and remove orphaned libraries

Post automatically merged: Jan 9, 2020

I would not like Gimp on the Pyra system (I use it to photoshop the images I post from time to time), rather, an easier version. So if we have lots of KDE libraries, Kolourpaint, and if we have lots of Gnome libraries, then gpaint, else something like mtpaint. But we also have: mypaint pinta rgbpaint tuxpaint xpaint

You took it wrong. Removing packages is not difficult as you demonstrated with autoremove, but removing only unneeded packages is difficult. Especially packages like DE which pulls many dependent packages. When you install major DE on minimal system it pulls in xorg, window manager, panels, network manager with applet, display manager, clilpboard manager, session manager and so on. When you install window manager it only installs window manger, after that you choose all other accessory packages to go with it. Issue is when you remove DE you don't want to remove all the accessories, otherwise you may have a broken system, without internet, working xorg etc., and many times you do not know what else is gone and you are left without internet to get any help. With minimal system good thing is that essential packages like networkmanager and xorg are not installed as DE dependencies but as separate packages. Plus there is issue of clean removal, as you always are not sure what other packages are installed in default system in addition to DE. If you do not use autoremove you fail to remove may unwanted packages, if you do autoremove you remove atleast few needed packages.

I don't think that's the problem being posited here. If a package is a dependency on another package you still have installed, surely you probably still want to keep it? At least removing it might well cause problems when you next update your system I'd have thought.

The problem as quoted was that when you remove Mate with dependencies, it may well take X, and that may take network manager. I'd hope that wouldn't knock you off the network, but it's not something I honestly know. If you wanted to remain without X but still wanted to use similar code you'd probably want nmcli installed somehow, but if you were planning to install a different DE then probably the best thing to do would be to install the new DE first before removing Mate, or if space doesn't allow, remove Mate without removing dependencies, hope you remain online, install your new DE, and then remove orphans. Oh well, you can always reflash if you get in a complete mess I guess.

Installing new DE before removing old may work when you are for examples replacing mate with gnome or kde, but when you are replacing mate with openbox or cwm, it will not help as installing them will not save everything you need, except xorg.