(e)-SATA Port

[_wb_]

You'll see pictures in tomorrows blog post.


We had an eSATA / USB port combination on our first revision, but there was an issue with using that (I forgot, Nikolaus can reply to that).

some issues:
* dimensions - the combined socket is wider than a pure USB2 host - so we don't have enough space for everything between the shoulder buttons and hinges


* we have not found a combo socket for SMD - only THT. But the THT has so tight pins (and through-PCB holes) that we can't route the wires towards the board. So I wonder why it has been designed in that way.


* it is a little longer and interferes with the keypad on the backside


* the eSATA can't power an external device (contrary to USB 3.0) - so we think it is not as easily useable

The point of an eSATAp + USB combo is that it can power external devices, so that should not be an issue.

Anyway, if we can't have eSATA as an external port for whatever reason, is there something we can do internally with it? Is there a kind of internal storage that works over SATA and has a suitable dimension and power consumption for our purposes?

 

[Binky]

I would trade one of the 2 large USBs for an eSATAp port, since I can always plug a USB hub into the device if I need more USB ports.

This doesn't make any sense:

eSATAp is a combination of USB and eSATA in the same connector.

This means you can use it to connect eSATA devices or USB devices

It can provide all of power, USB data signalling, and SATA data signalling

Although some eSTAp ports provide both 5V and 12V, the pyra would probably be unable to supply the 12V (making it like many laptops)

 

[God Ginrai]

I would trade one of the 2 large USBs for an eSATAp port, since I can always plug a USB hub into the device if I need more USB ports.

 This doesn't make any sense:

eSATAp is a combination of USB and eSATA in the same connector.

This means you can use it to connect eSATA devices or USB devices

It can provide all of power, USB data signalling, and SATA data signalling

Although some eSTAp ports provide both 5V and 12V, the pyra would probably be unable to supply the 12V (making it like many laptops)

It does make sense, actually. Because gta04 said that there wouldn't be room inbetween the hinges and shoulders for it due to dimensions. Just because the port you see is the same size doesn't mean that what's behind it takes up the same space. So I was saying if we drop one of the USBs, it should have plenty of room to stretch.

-God Ginrai

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I'd prefer a RJ-45 port over esata or two big usb.

 

[ShleeDragon]

Don't need it. don't want it.

 

[wardred]

I wouldn't go down to 1 usb port to support eSATA.  For me it'd be much more useful to retain both fullsize USB ports.

Edit: Just my use case.

 

[destraht]

@destraht: HDMI, microUSB and microUSB 3.0 OTG can use the same port mechanically.

I highly doubt that the bus of the Pyra will be able to handle eSATA speed specs though.


Then again the same holds for USB 3.0.

True, but still pretty fast, I'd guess.

Are you referring to a MHL port?

Personally I'd rather have an extra micro-USB port to save space for other things.  So one MHL port, one micro-USB 2 (charger?) and one USB 3.

 

[benoitb]

I wouldn't go down to 1 usb port to support eSATA.  For me it'd be much more useful to retain both fullsize USB ports.

Edit: Just my use case.

Same here. 2 full size USB is much much more useful to me. I fail to see in what use case you absolutely need SATA over USB3.

 

[hns]

I would trade one of the 2 large USBs for an eSATAp port, since I can always plug a USB hub into the device if I need more USB ports.

 This doesn't make any sense:

eSATAp is a combination of USB and eSATA in the same connector.

This means you can use it to connect eSATA devices or USB devices

It can provide all of power, USB data signalling, and SATA data signalling

Although some eSTAp ports provide both 5V and 12V, the pyra would probably be unable to supply the 12V (making it like many laptops)

You'll see pictures in tomorrows blog post.

We had an eSATA / USB port combination on our first revision, but there was an issue with using that (I forgot, Nikolaus can reply to that).

some issues:* dimensions - the combined socket is wider than a pure USB2 host - so we don't have enough space for everything between the shoulder buttons and hinges

* we have not found a combo socket for SMD - only THT. But the THT has so tight pins (and through-PCB holes) that we can't route the wires towards the board. So I wonder why it has been designed in that way.

* it is a little longer and interferes with the keypad on the backside

* the eSATA can't power an external device (contrary to USB 3.0) - so we think it is not as easily useable

 The point of an eSATAp + USB combo is that it can power external devices, so that should not be an issue.

Anyway, if we can't have eSATA as an external port for whatever reason, is there something we can do internally with it? Is there a kind of internal storage that works over SATA and has a suitable dimension and power consumption for our purposes?

Yes, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESATAp#.2B12_V_issue

@destraht: HDMI, microUSB and microUSB 3.0 OTG can use the same port mechanically.

I highly doubt that the bus of the Pyra will be able to handle eSATA speed specs though.

Then again the same holds for USB 3.0.

True, but still pretty fast, I'd guess.

 
Are you referring to a MHL port?

Personally I'd rather have an extra micro-USB port to save space for other things.  So one MHL port, one micro-USB 2 (charger?) and one USB 3.

At least on OMAP3 there is no arbitrary choice of interfaces. USB3 can only be combined as an add-on with an USB2-OTG (Host/Charger) and therefore must be a micro-USB-AB (because there is no client mode/OTG on USB3-standard and no extension on Mini-USB). So we can at max. provide 2 USB-standard (or micro) hosts and one optionally combined with eSATA (if we sacrifice e.g. the HDMI out for space reasons - the USB+eSATA combo needs 5mm more space - and we don't know a really good connector).If we have one micro-USB-Host - it is unuseable w/o external components in most situations. You can't plug in a keyboard, mouse, memory key w/o needing an adapter. But most people have plethora of USB A to Mini-USB and USB A to Micro-USB cables to connect any peripheral with mini/micro-USB.

So the natural choice is to have two Standard USB-A ports (in addition to a Micro-USB3-OTG-AB).

Now if anyone finds a USB-eSATA combo socket with SMD mounting capability (no THT pins!) that is 15mm wide (and not 20mm) we can simply replace one of the USB-Host sockets and add the wiring for eSATA.

 

[_wb_]

I would trade one of the 2 large USBs for an eSATAp port, since I can always plug a USB hub into the device if I need more USB ports.

 
This doesn't make any sense:


eSATAp is a combination of USB and eSATA in the same connector.


This means you can use it to connect eSATA devices or USB devices


It can provide all of power, USB data signalling, and SATA data signalling


Although some eSTAp ports provide both 5V and 12V, the pyra would probably be unable to supply the 12V (making it like many laptops)

You'll see pictures in tomorrows blog post.


We had an eSATA / USB port combination on our first revision, but there was an issue with using that (I forgot, Nikolaus can reply to that).

some issues:
* dimensions - the combined socket is wider than a pure USB2 host - so we don't have enough space for everything between the shoulder buttons and hinges


* we have not found a combo socket for SMD - only THT. But the THT has so tight pins (and through-PCB holes) that we can't route the wires towards the board. So I wonder why it has been designed in that way.


* it is a little longer and interferes with the keypad on the backside


* the eSATA can't power an external device (contrary to USB 3.0) - so we think it is not as easily useable

 
The point of an eSATAp + USB combo is that it can power external devices, so that should not be an issue.


Anyway, if we can't have eSATA as an external port for whatever reason, is there something we can do internally with it? Is there a kind of internal storage that works over SATA and has a suitable dimension and power consumption for our purposes?

Yes, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESATAp#.2B12_V_issue

@destraht: HDMI, microUSB and microUSB 3.0 OTG can use the same port mechanically.

I highly doubt that the bus of the Pyra will be able to handle eSATA speed specs though.


Then again the same holds for USB 3.0.

True, but still pretty fast, I'd guess.

 

Are you referring to a MHL port?


Personally I'd rather have an extra micro-USB port to save space for other things.  So one MHL port, one micro-USB 2 (charger?) and one USB 3.

At least on OMAP3 there is no arbitrary choice of interfaces. USB3 can only be combined as an add-on with an USB2-OTG (Host/Charger) and therefore must be a micro-USB-AB (because there is no client mode/OTG on USB3-standard and no extension on Mini-USB). So we can at max. provide 2 USB-standard (or micro) hosts and one optionally combined with eSATA (if we sacrifice e.g. the HDMI out for space reasons - the USB+eSATA combo needs 5mm more space - and we don't know a really good connector).
If we have one micro-USB-Host - it is unuseable w/o external components in most situations. You can't plug in a keyboard, mouse, memory key w/o needing an adapter. But most people have plethora of USB A to Mini-USB and USB A to Micro-USB cables to connect any peripheral with mini/micro-USB.


So the natural choice is to have two Standard USB-A ports (in addition to a Micro-USB3-OTG-AB).


Now if anyone finds a USB-eSATA combo socket with SMD mounting capability (no THT pins!) that is 15mm wide (and not 20mm) we can simply replace one of the USB-Host sockets and add the wiring for eSATA.

Is THT really that big of a problem? It's hard to believe that sockets are being sold that are impossible to use at all. Maybe THT is more expensive than SMT, but that's a different problem. Could it be that they use THT because it gives better mechanical strength? In that case I would be inclined to use THT. Durability is an important consideration.

Not being able to power 12V devices is not a big issue, that's the same on laptops. I don't think people with 12V drives expect them to work without external power on a handheld if that doesn't work on a laptop either.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Why TWO big usb ports ? To suck the battery in a pinch when connecting two devices ?

 

[WizardStan]

the USB+eSATA combo needs 5mm more space

I'd just like to say that if the back is so tight that an extra 5mm would require losing something else then it seems to me that there is just too much stuff on the back, but that's just me. Do we really need two full sized USB ports? Small usb hubs are really easy to come by these days.

 

[_wb_]

Why TWO big usb ports ? To suck the battery in a pinch when connecting two devices ?

There are plenty of USB devices that don't suck power like crazy. E.g. a keyboard, mouse, or memory stick. Of course if you're going to connect 3 HDDs at the same time (one of them on the µUSB port) your battery will be dead quickly.

It is not crucial, but it would be practical to be able to connect two USB devices without needing a hub. Not something to drop other features for, but still nice.

 

[WizardStan]

I wonder if there's a stacked (esatap+USB)+USB port.

 

[hns]

the USB+eSATA combo needs 5mm more space

I'd just like to say that if the back is so tight that an extra 5mm would require losing something else then it seems to me that there is just too much stuff on the back, but that's just me. Do we really need two full sized USB ports? Small usb hubs are really easy to come by these days.

To give you some background on the questions we discussed:* how do you power the hub?

* why do we need an external hub just to connect 2 devices?

e.g. your camera + USB memory key

your phone + RFID reader

a mouse and a memory key

an external hard disk that requires an Y cable and two USB host ports to power on (usually they run well from 500mA but don't start)

if you have the Pyra w/o UMTS one slot will be reserved for an UMTS key)

For a desktop system it is no problem to have a 7 port hub with external power supply. But not for a portable device.

And many USB devices draw <100mA. So having two ports does not necessarily mean draining the battery very fast.

Therefore we think that 2 full sized USB host ports are a good solution (3 would even be better).

I wonder if there's a stacked (esatap+USB)+USB port.

Have not seen one in production and stacked USB ports are much too high. They would collide with the hinge mechanism.

 

[WizardStan]

why do we need an external hub just to connect 2 devices?

Why do we need an external hub just to connect 3 devices? 4 devices? 8 devices? Just ring the entire thing in USB ports Hyperbole aside, I know what you're saying but you've said yourself that that second port is taking up a lot of space: you don't have 5mm to spare anywhere. Is the back just going to be a mass of open ports?

At least the Full/low speed problem was solved in the OMAP5, so that is one less reason to need a hub.

how do you power the hub?

Why does it need to be powered? I've got a squid and have happily plugged mouse, keyboard, and thumb drive into it for use on my Pandora, they don't complain of power.

And many USB devices draw <100mA. So having two ports does not necessarily mean draining the battery very fast.

And there you go, most devices you'd want to use require less than 100ma, using an unpowered hub is not a problem. Is the high power requirements for portable hard drives really so much of a consideration that you'd cram a second... wait. External hard drive powered by two USB ports is a consideration for which you would sacrifice a powered esata port? That's not right. If external hard drives are a seriously considered use case then esatap+USB should come before two USB ports for that.

 

[Binky]

an external hard disk that requires an Y cable and two USB host ports to power on (usually they run well from 500mA but don't start)

Could an external HDD be run off a single eSATAp port?

If so, why would it be preferable to run an external HDD from twin USB ports?

--

I'd love to see a list of possible connectors (even those you don't currently plan to use) and their dimensions.

 

[Galaxis]

Don't really get what an eSATA port should be good for on a device like the Pyra. An USB3 port ist going to be much more versatile. And two USB ports are useful too (at least if at least one of them also supports standard USB, like the OTG port on the Pandora): Most of the time that would mean I wouldn't have to lug around an additional USB hub.

 

[levi]

Is THT really that big of a problem? It's hard to believe that sockets are being sold that are impossible to use at all. Maybe THT is more expensive than SMT, but that's a different problem. Could it be that they use THT because it gives better mechanical strength? In that case I would be inclined to use THT. Durability is an important consideration.

Of course you can use through-hole sockets, as long as you're not reflow soldering your board. It's even preferable if you're hand soldering for most people.

The problem in the Pyra is that there's other stuff underneath the socket, most obviously the new hardware control/custom buttons or traces wiring them up, but also on a multilayer board there can be all sorts of other hidden traces routing stuff across the board that you'll inconvenience.


I suspect you're right about the mechanical advantage of through hole soldered sockets, but I've never had a suitably reinforced surface mount socket come free under normal use so I guess that's a non-issue. Either way movement of the socket will fatigue the solder joints, so it may be that THT has no advantage over SMT if the socket is loose and no practical difference if it's properly secured.

 

[WizardStan]

Don't really get what an eSATA port should be good for on a device like the Pyra.

Plugging in an external hard drive, which is one of the use cases given for having two USB ports, or making sure we have a USB3 port.It's not like it would just be a dedicated port that hardly anyone would use, what's been proposed is a eSATAp+USB port which contains both eSATAp and USB plugs in one. The only drawback is that it is 4-5mm wider than a standard USB-A port.

We're not even sacrificing any pins, the SATA lines on the OMAP5 are dedicated, either we use them or we don't. And not using them is fair, gta04 would need to run the lines from the SoC to the port and there's only a finite number of ways to do it, so it may not even be possible.