Devuan, anyone?

Kev2442

Still French
Joined
Nov 4, 2014
Messages
562
Location
42 (Loire) is the answer.
As complete Linux newbie, I don't see what's so bad about systemd. If it does multiple things, but still does them well, then I don't get the problem.  ^_^

Edit : it seems that the main issues about systemd are more about server reboot and centralized security flaws. It's a mobile computer, is it really a problem ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tkm625

Still Fresh
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
7
Check this article out. Many of the points made there shut the case for me. I guess I just care too much about my own security and privacy.

DistroWatch did a poll recently on the use/avoidance of it by Linux desktop users. I think Devuan has a bright future ahead of it, including on the Dragonbox Pyra.


I think we can all agree that there's enough anti-systemd or pro-systemd arguments for people to find without having to rehash it all here though.

As complete Linux newbie, I don't see what's so bad about systemd. If it does multiple things, but still does them well, then I don't get the problem.  ^_^

Edit : it seems that the main issues about systemd are more about server reboot and centralized security flaws. It's a mobile computer, is it really a problem ?
I was planning on using this to hack stuff, so yes, it's a problem. Security is always a problem if you're using the internet for doing anything fun :D
 

WizardStan

Mega GP Mania
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
16,733
I guess I just care too much about my own security and privacy.
Red flag, morality fallacy. You make a claim to security and privacy, implying that these things make you right and systemd eschews these and is therefore wrong but the article you linked makes no mention of either. In fact, you're the first person I've ever seen to mention privacy concerns at all.Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
 

tkm625

Still Fresh
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
7
I guess I just care too much about my own security and privacy.
Red flag, morality fallacy. You make a claim to security and privacy, implying that these things make you right and systemd eschews these and is therefore wrong but the article you linked makes no mention of either. In fact, you're the first person I've ever seen to mention privacy concerns at all.
Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
My statement was based everything I know about the subject, not just what's found in that article. You could have just asked me to elaborate. There's no need to be an ass.
 

Grench

Forum Addict!
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
6,212
I guess I just care too much about my own security and privacy.
Red flag, morality fallacy. You make a claim to security and privacy, implying that these things make you right and systemd eschews these and is therefore wrong but the article you linked makes no mention of either. In fact, you're the first person I've ever seen to mention privacy concerns at all.
Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
My statement was based everything I know about the subject, not just what's found in that article. You could have just asked me to elaborate. There's no need to be an ass.
Wow - 7 total posts total in the forums in and you've already insulted everyone who disagreed with you.  You have no actual prior involvement in the project..  You clearly just came here to publicize your agenda.

May I suggest you go fight your holier than though's OS component wars elsewhere?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

comradekingu

Glowing ember
Joined
Apr 15, 2011
Messages
4,977
Website
portfolio.anotheragency.no
Considering systemds seemingly endless featurecreep and vast codebase, it could be that his personal means dont allow him to run through it all. Known Other security aspects aside, there is something to be said for keeping things simple and doing it yourself.

Be nice.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

levi

Still fresh, damnit!
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
11,381
Location
Somewhere off the coast of the EU
Known security? What is known about the security of either the systemd suite or the sysvinit suite (or other init replacments, for that matter). I've seen no reports of any remote hacks on any init system fwiw.

It's debatable whether a modern, well written but massive init system probably only fully understood by a dozen developers at most is more or less complex than a cruft of old batch files that probably at most of half a dozen currently living developers have ever fully understood (not that fully understanding sysvinit is required to build a new OS).

Likewise, I don't think anyone's ever written a modern sysvinit set by themselves - they've relied on years of existing init scripts that more or less do what they want, and added and modified those.

As a user of a systemd system for a few months, I like that booting is quicker, and I like that my log files are smaller. The only actual problem I've experienced is that it has invalidated countless stackoverflow questions and blogs, and in searching for how to do anything under systemd means you have to wade through countless articles pro and anti systemd pages first.
 

WizardStan

Mega GP Mania
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
16,733
My statement was based everything I know about the subject, not just what's found in that article. You could have just asked me to elaborate. There's no need to be an ass.
Your statement "I guess I just care too much about my own security and privacy" is worded to heavily imply that anyone who does use systemd does not care about security and privacy. Call me an ass if you want but you're the one who fired the first shot.
 

ghostpatch

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
557
Location
Germany
tkm625 misunderstood WizardStan's joke. No need to flame him! -.-

@Grench, why are you always so aggressive?

@tkm625

nice article, it pretty much summarises all the negaive points I've heard so far. Although systemed has many good points too, but I don't care so much for a few seconds faster bootup's. Don't misunderstand,I'm not against systemd. Everybody sould use what he feels comfortable with, right

Its "easy" to swap kernel's but I've done it only once to get a missing driver I needed. I'm a bit wary of nasty bugs..

I'm curious about potential security concerns? Cuz I sure am a concerned user : )

I look more and more into security these days, its crazy (and fun(in a very sad way)) xD

So Devuan + Libre kernel could really become my preferred distro for the Pyra : )
 

Grench

Forum Addict!
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
6,212
@Grench, why are you always so aggressive?
The guy clearly came here with the express purpose of promoting his personal agenda on a project that he had no previous involvement in.

This is very similar to the people who show up from nowhere to promote the FSF agenda.

Changing the product to fit political agendas is a generally BAD idea.

These crusaders should be shown the door.  Roughly if necessary.
 

moxie

The voice of reason, sense and exasperation
Staff member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
2,707
Age
47
Location
South of Sweden
As complete Linux newbie, I don't see what's so bad about systemd. If it does multiple things, but still does them well, then I don't get the problem.  ^_^

Edit : it seems that the main issues about systemd are more about server reboot and centralized security flaws. It's a mobile computer, is it really a problem ?
It is a religious thing. When society gets more and more secularized, people with a strong religious instinct needs something new to focus that instinct on. For some, that is a football team. For others,  a political idea, Apple hardware, The Free software Foundation or the relative merits of your own nationality. And, for some, it is the init process of their operating system.


For those of us who lack that deep need for religion, the best course of action is to smile and nod politely, as long as it is possible to actually continue working in a rational and logical way. If the ability to do that is jeopardized, it might be for the best to put the foot down and point out that this is a non-religious project and that we don't want it usurped by one side or the other.
 

LEOXD

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
121
Age
22
Location
Denmark
(bold greenwriters, can we have get a systemd discuss thread? I think that could be useful)
 

I'm curious about potential security concerns? Cuz I sure am a concerned user : )
Security concerns are always there. New code may add new security holes, yes. More code may have more security holes, yes. But old code may have undetected security holes as well; the shellshock bug for example was introduced in bash 1.03, August 1989, and is just a couple of lines that replace = with spaces. 


You just can't proof that anything is perfectly safe.
 

moxie

The voice of reason, sense and exasperation
Staff member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
2,707
Age
47
Location
South of Sweden
I am quite sure that you can start a systemd discussion thread in a relevant forum. Say, in "Offtopic general talk", which to me sounds like the proper place to discuss the general pros and cons of OS init systems. It possibly even could be here in OS development, given a proper connection to the project. However, running in with the implications that those that don't agree with your standpoint are somehow stupid, uninformed, or don't care about this or that, will get a slap on the fingers. At least if here - This is supposed to be a constructive and helpful subforum. Offtopic is a bit more relaxed.

EDIT: And a slap on the fingers need not need be a visit by the Official Green Writers. It might also mean that you get violently ridiculed by the older board denizens.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

moxie

The voice of reason, sense and exasperation
Staff member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
2,707
Age
47
Location
South of Sweden
And, of course: As long as Devuan survives past the forkers general anger and stabilizes into a viable alternative, it will of course be extremely easy to just swap out the relevant parts of standard Debian for the respective Devuan packages, or make a Devuan install with the added special Pyra thingies. It would surprise me very much if it took more than a few months from Pyra launch until someone publishes the necessary apt-script changes to do this (given that Devuan actually becomes a thing that works). Anyone who has deep feelings regarding their init system will be able to change it. 

So, in reality, it is no problem. If you want to have Devuan on you Pyra, you can put it there. This thread start  doesn't in any way acknowledge that (even though that anyone who actually understands the differences between systemd and sysVinit will realize this). Instead, it calls for a complete change of the installed OS on all Pyras, not bothering about all the discussion upon which the decision to run on an as vanilla as possible Debian distro is made, and starts insulting people who does not agree. That is not a constructive approach. 

I'm quite certain that if tkm625 actually wants to be helpful, instead of instigating flames, s/he is fully capable of actually collecting the necessary script changes from Debian to Devuan and publish them here in time for the actual Pyra launch. That is the course I'd recommend, being one of those bold green writers.
 

ghostpatch

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
557
Location
Germany
Changing the product to fit political agendas is a generally BAD idea.
Linux is all about changing the product. I like threads like this, It's more my thing then talking about retro gaming

The guy clearly came here with the express purpose of promoting his personal agenda on a project that he had no previous involvement in. This is very similar to the people who show up from nowhere to promote the FSF agenda.
I think that guy came here to talk about the idea of porting Devuan to the Pyra. He's expressing his ideas which is totally fine. He listens to reason. He argues. I'd call that a conversation, not propaganda.

This thread start doesn't in any way acknowledge that (even though that anyone who actually understands the differences between systemd and sysVinit will realize this). Instead, it calls for a complete change of the installed OS on all Pyras, not bothering about all the discussion upon which the decision to run on an as vanilla as possible Debian distro is made, and starts insulting people who does not agree. That is not a constructive approach.
you misread, right? He never "called" for replacing the OS on all Pyras. He's expressing interest in installing Devuan on his Pyra and ask's if someone else is interested too. We also have more OS'ses for the Pandora.

Its so weird that people who don't like to contibute to a certain thread start ranting how they don't like the thread and keep on arguing about useless stuff and everything starts going in circles until everybody is just pissed off. Can't you just stick to the topics you like?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

moxie

The voice of reason, sense and exasperation
Staff member
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
2,707
Age
47
Location
South of Sweden
True. The original post was better worded - I forgot that. It did deteroriate fairly quickly, though.
 

ghostpatch

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
557
Location
Germany
no problem, but I really don't like it when people are ganging up on someone. WizardStan does not need to be defended. And to make a point I can imagine tkm625's mood wasn't the best after some spam including Grench's blow.
 
Top