Devuan, anyone?

tkm625

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I don't know about you guys, but I'm super excited about Devuan and won't be using plain Debian anymore since they abandoned the Unix philosophy. I'm going get it running on a Pyra once I finally get one in hand. Has anyone else been keeping track of Devuan, or have their two cents to contribute?

They just recently released images for a bunch of ARM-based hobby boards, which aren't very different from the Pyra, so I'm confident I can make it work when the time comes.
 

bzar

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I see it supports init systems other than systemd. Is it still a supported possibility to run it with systemd?
 

tkm625

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Not really, no. If you wanted to run Devuan with systemd, you're pretty much running Debian ;) . It's not possible because systemd is too friggin big and bloated that it refuses to just act as an init program. Making an init-independant distribution like Devuan means systemd can't be on the init list because of it's behavior. That's what Debian does now.
 

Grench

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That looks very much like someone's own solution wasn't chosen for the main Debian release so they continued the pissing match right through creating their own clumsy fork execution in protest.

Thanks, but no.  I'll stick with the main Debian release.  You guys are all welcome to install whatever you want, but the main release shipped on the Pyra should be as close to and compatible with Debian Jessie as it can be.
 

bzar

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Not really, no. If you wanted to run Devuan with systemd, you're pretty much running Debian ;) . It's not possible because systemd is too friggin big and bloated that it refuses to just act as an init program. Making an init-independant distribution like Devuan means systemd can't be on the init list because of it's behavior. That's what Debian does now.
That must be what the "init freedom" they talk about means. Choose any init system as long as it's one of these :p

Okay, I've had my fun. Sorry and carry on. I actually like systemd compared to the alternatives, so I'll stick with distros that support it. :)
 
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TrashyMG

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People are free to install what they want, however PyraOS is running Debian Jessie... So it will have the best init system ever made. Hail systemd.
 

tkm625

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Yet another systemd bashing thread? Not again, please!
I wholeheartedly agree. That was not the point of this topic.

Yes, devuan on pyra, yes. Yes and more yes.
That was precisely the point of this topic :D

That must be what the "init freedom" they talk about means. Choose any init system as long as it's one of these :p
It's basically "choose any init program other than systemd, and if you want systemd, go back to the source from whence we forked". Makes perfect sense to me.

That looks very much like someone's own solution wasn't chosen for the main Debian release so they continued the pissing match right through creating their own clumsy fork execution in protest.
I really don't think that kind of response will help the conversation.
 
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lukey

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I will install Slackware anyway, because its fimilar to devuan, but even more UNIX like.
 

_jr_

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Not really, no. If you wanted to run Devuan with systemd, you're pretty much running Debian ;) . It's not possible because systemd is too friggin big and bloated that it refuses to just act as an init program. Making an init-independant distribution like Devuan means systemd can't be on the init list because of it's behavior. That's what Debian does now.
That must be what the "init freedom" they talk about means. Choose any init system as long as it's one of these :p

Okay, I've had my fun. Sorry and carry on. I actually like systemd compared to the alternatives, so I'll stick with distros that support it. :)
Just read e.g. the vdev readme. It is intended to be able to coexist with systemd. Whether devuan will carry systemd/udev packages I cannot say, but that probably depends on finding a maintainer. And having your fun was a waste of my time, we all know exactly who is trying to push their stuff down other people's throats.


edit: added quoting
 
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ghostpatch

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I understand its a lot of work keeping everything together to make the sytem boot, when more and more progammes are expecting systemd, but they should go for more characteristic seting them apart like using a blob free kernel for example.

To me it seems there are a lot of awesome distribution worth of using. But hey, I'd like to give it a try on the Pyra. Won't it be a lot of work merging Pyra specific patches with Devuan? It's no fun with missing drivers...

Yet another systemd bashing thread? Not again, please!
why couldn't you just ignore the thread? you don't have anything to contibute? then don't
 

tkm625

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Devuan like Debian is already compatable with the Linux-Libre kernel if you, like myself, prefer that. I don't believe merging the Pyra-specific patches will be a big issue. As far as I can tell it's essentially the same process no matter what spin or derivative of Debian you would be using.
 

Kev2442

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I don't know that much about Linux yet. Could you guys present in a few words what's systemd and its pros and cons along with the alternatives ?

As I'm planning on learning with the Pyra, please understand that this discussion is pretty opaque for my kind.
 

WizardStan

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Could you guys present in a few words what's systemd and its pros and cons along with the alternatives ?
systemd is an init system: the very first program the kernel starts and is responsible for making sure everything else runs properly. It is intended to replace the current init system.It solves a number of problems the current system has, things like truly ordered startup, better pre-allocation of resources, and parallel loading for faster start times.

One actual drawback to using it is that it changes some assumptions about sockets and file handles and some programs will need to be changed to do it "the systemd way".

Two manufactured drawbacks (in that they do not cause problems for the user directly but are considered flaws and could lead to problems further down the road) are that it is a Linux only system and cannot simply be recompiled for other Unixes; and because of its modular nature it tries to be many things which is counter to the unix philosophy of "doing only one thing and doing it well". It's that last one I see the most controversy around.
 

bzar

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because of its modular nature it tries to be many things which is counter to the unix philosophy of "doing only one thing and doing it well". It's that last one I see the most controversy around.
Though as far as I understand it, systemd itself does not do too many things, but mainly provides service management and (for now, until kdbus) process communication services as a platform. There are many systemd daemons that somehow get counted as complexity for systemd itself although they're separate processes that merely use the services systemd provides. So as far as I'm aware systemd itself is doing one thing and trying to do it well, which is service management.

Yes, it is more complex than sysvinit. No it does not contain every *d named thing in PID1. Yes, it does more than sysvinit, but it's in my view just a broader view of the same thing. Not many separate things. Kinda like a early "ls" command would only list files one way and leave all formatting and filtering for other programs, but a modern version still does file listing but with a bit richer feature set.
 

WizardStan

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So as far as I'm aware systemd itself is doing one thing and trying to do it well, which is service management
I agree, as far as I can tell the claims of complexity are basically trumped up, but I don't actually know enough to make any solid counter claims, I just answered the question: here's what it is, here's what it does, here's why some think it's good, here's why some think it's bad.That "ls" example is pretty good though. I may have to steal it if I ever find myself in need. ;)
 
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