Devuan, anyone?

Discussion in 'Pyra OS (Debian GNU/Linux)' started by tkm625, Aug 9, 2015.

  1. Linux-SWAT

    Linux-SWAT Hardcore Member

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    Or simply pull the plug.
    But on a system that you have hardened, this kind of bug is still more than a "simple annoyance".
     
  2. tigerroast

    tigerroast YOUNG VORHEES

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    It's like the gov't keylogger just flumped itself and threw up all over the computer. Maybe that's why Linux users are on the US terror watchlist lol

    But yeah, that's freaky as hell. I couldn't even begin thinking of ways to reproduce that.
     
  3. Letalis Sonus

    Letalis Sonus Advanced Member

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    Confirmed: systemd ships NSA keylogger

    Jokes aside: Has there ever been a proper code review of systemd? Being PID 1 is serious shit after all.
     
  4. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    As complexity increases, the chance of error goes up or down?


    You are adding unfortunate levels of pointing out what you mean, specifically.

    No, I'm sure they don't care about uptime or reputation at all. Its not like that is what they actually respectively base their businesses on.

    So pure luck and how a bug is handled is now what a bug is. I and everyone else will be asking for your reactive powers once we see it turning out otherwise.

    It is not modular in the traditional unix sense, which has been a concept there for nearly 50 years. How many people thought it was a bad idea in 50 years? How many of them/how much of it left?
    Try replacing your init system with anything else on a systemd-box running any regular desktop. Problem?

    A forced migration over to something that leaves no tangible recourse, while promising to do so, expanding indefinitely, and sucking. So the polar opposite of Linux, for Linux-people. I don't get it either. It's like people are upset or something.
     
  5. kaprikawn

    kaprikawn Very Active Member

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    Some more interesting information here
     
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  6. tigerroast

    tigerroast YOUNG VORHEES

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    Excellent job jumping the gun, bro; we have no idea if that's a systemd bug that'll keep rearing its head or just freak coincidence. Even if it's the former, then it's not a big deal. If it's repeatable, then it's defeatable.

    If the meaning of the 2nd sentence I responded to didn't change from the 1st, then repeating myself didn't change anything either.

    Besides, we both agreed some valid criticisms of systemd were made. SOME valid criticisms.

    Of course they care, which is the reason they use systemd in plenty of their fleet lol

    Not what I meant and you know it. What I'm saying is, if this bug is apparently so severe and widespread, then why isn't it being represented on Github or freedesktop.org as such? Where's the stream of reports citing many users having their computers crash because of this bit of code? Why haven't the anti-systemd iconoclasts been able to fell our lord and savior, Harry Poettering, and cause the systemd sky to fall in the wake of this horrifying bug?

    Because this bug is local-only, so if someone else has local access to your computer without your permission, then that should be an even bigger security concern than the utilization of this bug to crash the system. Not like you can "accidentally" type this code anyway. Still, it'll likely be removed from the next stable systemd release, so no harm, no foul.

    Set the timer. Can't wait to see that pie on your face.

    So you concede that systemd is modular, which is true, but you still found a way to make it a problem in your mind. I'm not gonna lie; that's pretty impressive. That's Clinton levels of mental gymnastics.

    Seriously, through all the rhetoric, you're the only one I found that said systemd is neither modular or monolithic, and the way you came to such a conclusion was making your own definition based on the UNIX philosophy, which, again, doesn't change systemd's modular nature.

    Not everything's gonna be compatible with everything else, but you think that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, systemd-nspawn needs to work on launchd and Upstart in order to be truly modular.

    Linux has always been about branching out and exploring the possibilities, passing up possible solutions for the chance at finding better ones. Linux has become entrenched in a good-yet-polarizing solution, which is going to make people upset. If systemd does turn into X.org (betting my money it won't), then the Linux community at large will find/invent a better solution. Hasn't happened yet though. SysV's a corner case solution now. ConsoleKit's dead. uselessd inevitably followed the path it was taking into its own grave. OpenRC isn't being run outside of a Gentoo/Slackware/PCLOS/Puppy/some Manjaro builds and embedded distros (there's more, but they're insignificant).
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 6, 2016 ---
    Linus doesn't have any major issues with systemd, and some Linux devs, while wary of systemd, concede that nightmare scenarios with systemd haven't happened.

    But yeah, I agree. A code review of systemd and its parts is important. A quick Google search didn't turn up much, but you'd think they already went through that process before distros everywhere began adopting it. Idk
     
  7. Linux-SWAT

    Linux-SWAT Hardcore Member

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    You still don't understand what a local user is about, and why this bug is critical.
    Slackware doesn't run OpenRC.
    There's plenty of critical Linux system that don't and will never use systemd. As a real world example, in my last job, the OS in charge of the cloud and bare metal infrastructure deployment.
     
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  8. Penguin-Guru

    Penguin-Guru Still Fresh

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    Seems like this thread has fallen back into the SysD debates. Please consider moving to another thread called "SystemD Debates", which I have just created (Link-1 below), so that Devuan users can sort through the information relevant to their configuration more easily.

    That said, I think it's safe to say none of us are going to change our opinions regardless of what evidence is brought to bear. There is plenty of information out there for those interested, trying to change the opinions of those uninterested is simply a waste of time. Devuan exists to offer an alternative so I hope that people will come to accept differences of opinion. I'll hang a lantern in advance for what is probably a scientifically controversial statement but I believe that people become emotional on this topic because we are afraid that the alternative technology will usurp our preference, thereby endangering our personal comfort. Personally, I find SysD disgusting primarily on principle, but I will not try to convince people to move away from it; a moral decision based on the same principle-- freedom of choice. In fact, I might even recommend it for some use-cases based on organisational circumstances. It is a matter of personal and professional opinion, but the beauty of free software is that we never run the risk of precluding preferences. Where something is not satisfactory, we may change it to suit our ideals. Naturally, less popular software will suffer from less development effort, but the choice is always our to make. In the case of SysD, there are already satisfactory alternatives and a passionate community to support them long-term. Despite the mass-adoption of SysD, Devuan shines pure as an example of our culture's resilience in solidarity. Although I'm not actually affiliated with them in any way, this is why I wanted to make sure it would be available to Pyra users, and this is why I would like to keep the SysD debates and Devuan support threads separate. Devuan is not about hating SystemD.

    Link-1: https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/systemd-debates.78306/
     
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  9. bzar

    bzar A Commando

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    @Penguin-Guru: Well said.

    For my part I only posted here again because of blatant name calling like "shitstemd", an attempt to hijack the term "linux" to only refer to distributions or setups that have or don't have some components in addition to the kernel, and some factual inaccuracies. To each their own, do what you will and let others do the same. It's not nice to hear something you like being slung mud at just because the mudslinger likes something else. If there's new issues with something, informing others about them in a civilized manner should be enough. Calling people or projects names is... neither persuasive nor called for.

    There have been some good arguments made on both sides, and we can each choose to come to our own conclusions about them. I think it's only fair to let others live with their decisions as they let you. I have no problem whatsoever there being other init systems and other people using them.

    It might be more constructive for those wanting to argue the superiority of their choice to maybe resort to listing the upsides of their preferred choice instead of trying to come up with downsides in others? It is of course important to look at the downsides as well, but dwelling on only those just makes everything look bad. As an exercise, those wanting to argue superiority, come up with sentences describing upsides that neither mention any alternative implementation nor have a negated word, like "unlike" or "no" or "not". No need to post the results here unless you really want to, but just doing this by yourself can make it easier to see the "other side" as people who just like different things than you, not your enemies or lesser people.
     
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  10. ible

    ible professional vim user

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    i think these were the original lyrics:

    imagine there's no apple
    it's easy if you try
    no microsoft below us
    using software to spy
    imagine all the people
    living free today

    imagine there's no people
    saying their init system is best
    nothing to kill or die for
    and no android to oppress
    imagine all the people
    living open source

    You may say i'm a Pyrate
    but i'm not the only one
    i hope someday you'll join us
    and the world will create as one.

    imagine there's a keyboard
    i wonder if you can
    whose layout has been forged
    by a brotherhood of man
    imagine all the Pyras
    sharing all the world...

    You may say i'm a Pyrate
    but i'm not the only one
    i hope someday you'll join us
    and the world will create as one.

    old stuff:
    imagine no groups of people...
    saying their init system is best...

    Imagine there's no keyboard
    whose layout hasn't been fixed...
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
  11. Linux-SWAT

    Linux-SWAT Hardcore Member

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  12. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    Nor did I say it was, however if it was simple, that would be easier to troubleshoot. You err on the side of err. Coincidence sounds a lot like entropy doesn't it.


    You seem to take security lightly, or you don't understand what a local user is. It doesn't reflect well on your claim that people wanting security use SystemD to that end.

    Local user access is not on the same level as what you can escalate to. Sure problems in release isn't a problem for you, because future. However many people operate in the present.

    Even in the past, and invariably relating to complexity in the future, you will find yourself not gloating quite as much.

    You don't understand UNIX philosophy, nor did you answer my question.

    I don't care about your insular argument, because it doesn't reflect my point about UNIX philosophy, which I did not invent.
    Contest that if you want.

    It would make it modular on a system-wide scale. However you cherry picked two dead projects to make yourself feel good.

    If you mean best of breed, I don't see how it passes up much of anything useful.

    So you don't care about legacy. Nor do you care about modularity.

    Which would be what? Short of the things that have happened, I wonder…

    You don't know the history, nor do you care about content.

    Edit: You can use what you are served all you want, marginalizing other options, and the reasons for them, is a bad look.
     

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