D-pad No Good.

[StealthBagel]

When I originally asked MWeston about this, recommending a round-style Genesis/Megadrive design Dpad, he said that's similar to what they're using and the render was just old and inaccurate but even the new render seems to show a cross. A round one will have all the advantages of a cross without the rough edges to hurt your thumb, and vastly easier diagnol movement, for larger sweeping gestures which are important to a large number of games.

I don't know if this is still going to be the case.. but I hope so and I would appreciate a response from someone on the Pandora team if possible. Thanks.

 

[Kings]

Has everyone forgotten the TWO analog clicky nubs that this thing has? Just sayin'...

The videos of the analog nubs seem to make any points towards a stick pointless. If you were to change the + to anything I would expect XYBA buttons. Granted some of the reasons for a + would be just because the Pandora can emulate a bunch of systems that use one. I'll be the first to admit I'm a fanboy for the underdogs, and will defend some brands past the point of common sense. But I would think it's pretty clear that this is a community that shows it understands that the GP32, GP2X and Pandora are not flawless pieces from God. MiloDC your input is good, please ask why something is and try to value other peoples responses before throwing it back in their faces. And if you really do feel that your opinion is worth more, you can go out and build your perfect handheld with people that have an opinion of the same level.

Also no one will stop you from buying a Pandora and modding it to have a clicky stick. Document your work and post it, people will listen and respect your work.

 

[shmuck]

There's been a good deal of love for the digital stick, and they're great for games that require sweeping gestures (fighting games, etc.), but all stick controllers have this drawback in that when you need to turn around it's not simply a matter of rocking your thumb in the other direction - it requires some travel time. Ultimately, this makes stick controllers less responsive. So the stick works better in games expecting a stick and the pad works better in games expecting a pad. There are many many more of the latter.

As for the shape of the D-pad; in my experience what form the little piece of plastic takes is not a great indicator of how well the thing will register input. Nintendo's cross shaped pads have been consistently good, while the Dreamcast's cross shaped pad was squishy (though it functioned reasonably well). The 360's D-pad is one of the worst I've ever used and the reason is simply that when I press "down" it doesn't always read "down", sometimes it reads "sideways" - this is all that matters.

I don't understand the DS bashing - we could only hope for a D-pad as responsive as that.

 

[Chip]

That's it, fellas?

Just the typical fanboy, foot-planted, firm-as-stone responses of "my opinion is just as good as yours" and "so what, it's flawed but it works" and "too late, that's the final design"?

K, guess I'm done here. Enjoy!

Calm down. It's just a joystick.

Your personal opinion may be that the NGPC stick is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the overwhelming majority of people who play video games would probably disagree. I've used a NGPC, and I thought the stick was OK, but certainly not life-changing. As sticks go it was certianly better than the GP32 stick with its half-inch of deadzone. But still, if given a choice, I prefer an NES-style cross.

And yes, that is it. The design is final. Perhaps you've seen the photos of the PCB. Where exactly do you propose to stick the mechanical innards of a clicky stick? We can't just cut a hole in the board for it. The whole board would have to be redesigned. I'm sorry if you're offended because we don't want to derail a large and expensive project that has been in development for over a year just to placate one stick-obsessed NGPC fanatic who joined the forum 5 hours ago.

If you really are "done here" because we all didn't immediately agree that the NGPC clicky stick is the world's greatest achievement in human-machine interfacing, then farewell. I wish you better luck elsewhere in your thumbstick crusade.

If you want to stick around, then please try to be a bit more rational. There are a lot of different people on these forums and they don't always (if ever) agree on what the "best" of anything is. But they do at least show some common courtesy and debate rationally. Most of the time.

 

[Prophet]

I don't understand the DS bashing - we could only hope for a D-pad as responsive as that.

The original DS had an accurate dpad, although it was oddly shaped compared to most. But the DS Lite (mine and apparently others from what I've read) has some real problems with diagonals.

I hear the GBA Micro has a really excellent dpad, the best of any Nintendo handheld. I never owned one though so can't really say. But if I ever see one super cheap I might pick it up out of curiosity.

So long as we get an accurate dpad, that does all 8 directions without fuss, the Pandora will be just fine.

 

[MWeston]

When I originally asked MWeston about this, recommending a round-style Genesis/Megadrive design Dpad, he said that's similar to what they're using and the render was just old and inaccurate but even the new render seems to show a cross. A round one will have all the advantages of a cross without the rough edges to hurt your thumb, and vastly easier diagnol movement, for larger sweeping gestures which are important to a large number of games.

I don't know if this is still going to be the case.. but I hope so and I would appreciate a response from someone on the Pandora team if possible. Thanks.

The "new" renders are still the old dpad. I asked ED months ago if he would modify the dpad to be more rounded and closer to the final idea we had in mind, but I guess he never found the time to do it.

Pandora seems to be making the rounds on several websites these days and all the pictures from along the time line seem to make it on there. Some sites are even using drawings made by members of this forum.

I am choosing to just ignore all that inaccuracy and focus on getting the actual system working and designed. I think what is going to happen is what we show in plastic will acknowledge what is real and the renders are just renders. There are some changes from the pictures, but not different enough that it is a radical redesign. The focus of the final unit has been based on what is easily manufacturable and providing increased usability (ie. slightly rounded keypad buttons for better tactile feel).

I personally like the dpad in the traditional cross but there are problems with it that we are hopefully addressing to please the masses (and the Pandora team of course!). The first problem is that if it is just physically too large, then your thumb has to move around too much. I think this is the complaint of MiloDC. The other problem is that a traditional cross has those voids that can be uncomfortable after hours of play and can displace your thumb during diagonals so our solution was a more "Megadrive like" solution which builds up the base to eliminate those corner voids. Maybe that will help this feel more like the NGPC? I don't know. I have never owned one but regardless, the idea of a clicky dpad sounds wrong to me personally. I have always felt silent was more deadly.

 

[shmuck]

The original DS had an accurate dpad, although it was oddly shaped compared to most. But the DS Lite (mine and apparently others from what I've read) has some real problems with diagonals.

Ah, I see. When I read that I pulled out my DS and... well that was really baffling - it's great. But I don't have a DS Lite, and I've been a little jealous of people that do, so score for me.

 

[Spectralist]

The Nintendo cross pad is a demonstrably inferior design.

No, it isn't. They both have their benefits. The dpad is much better at doing left-to-right/top-to-bottom manoeuvres. It is also better at doing... well anything that requires you are absolutely sure you are pushing, say, left and only left. Not left and just enough down/up to have it register as a diagonal. Or from going from left to down without hitting the diagonal between them. Though that doesn't happen too often.

I'd probably prefer the clicky stick if i were playing games that often require smooth transitions from one angle to an adjacent one, but those are mostly fighting games, and i don't much care for fighting games.

For the games i do play. I would much rather have a dpad. Criminy i can't even imagine trying to do one of those old school up-down-up-down-left-right-left-right-up-down-left-right cheat codes with a clicky stick.

 

[gaterooze]

so our solution was a more "Megadrive like" solution which builds up the base to eliminate those corner voids.

Well, personally I don't like the Megadrive pad much, but as long as it works I'm sure I'll deal with it

 

[Game_over]

Ok...how about more "Sega Saturn" like then?

 

[C B Felterbush]

He just wanted to let loose his pomposity, "30 years gaming experience." In my humble opinion what ever works the best for the Pandora will suit me just fine. I have owned more than 40 gaming consoles and half that many handhelds, in those I experienced few great directional input devices.
I am sure which ever way MWeston decides to go will work out fine.

If not I'll just look for the DaveC redesign.

 

[Duddyroar]

I could understand him having personal issues with the d-pad design, but what really puzzled me is that he seemed to think that the NGPC stick was the ultimate solution.

Having owned a NGP, NGPC, GP32 and a NeoGeo CD (which uses the same stick as the NGP) I can state quite strongly that the Saturn d-pad is much, much better. The 'clicky stick' design always felt a bit too delicate to me, and often pulling off smooth motions is actually harder than on a traditional d-pad.

 

[x68000]

Ok...how about more "Sega Saturn" like then?

MWeston said it would sit slightly risen, so that would suggest that it's placement has more in common with the Saturn than the MD, since the Saturn pad always sat out more prominently.

 

[Duddyroar]

Both the Saturn and MD pads use the same design, it's like a mushroom shape, which pivots.

The traditional NES design is one flat piece of plastic. The reason no one else does d-pads like Nintendo is because the company held a patent on the design until a few years back. Trufax!

 

[scarath]

Fixed

 

[gruso]

Smooth shop work, I can hardly tell where one ends and the other begins.

 

[sabrecheeky]

I think I must be mental...

Does anyone else think that the GBA SP d-pad was fantastic? Very little movement in it, yet so utterly responsive and accurate, you could hear and feel the 'click', so much feedback for such a small pad.

My ultimate tests are the original Tetris on a GB emulator (Starting on level 19, of course!) - the SP pad was even better than my Competition Pro Amiga Joystick, and thats saying something. And Knight Lore on a ZXSpectrum emulator, I prefer playing it the rotate and walk forward style, which is far better suited to a keyboard, but on the SP... diagonals are easy and fast. On the GP2X and PSP, it is unplayable in this way, and I've modded my PSP pad.

Just my two cents...

*hides*

 

[Firefox]

I prefer the d-pad on my GBA Micro to the one on my SP (not that the SP's is in any way bad).

The Micro's is taller than the SP's and doesn't have the circular dimple in the middle. Instead each bar of the cross slopes inwards and they meet in an "X" shape in the middle. The switch action is less crunchy than the SP's, though still positive.

The differences are quite subtle really, they're both good d-pads.

 

[sabrecheeky]

I prefer the d-pad on my GBA Micro to the one on my SP (not that the SP's is in any way bad).

The Micro's is taller than the SP's and doesn't have the circular dimple in the middle. Instead each bar of the cross slopes inwards and they meet in an "X" shape in the middle. The switch action is less crunchy than the SP's, though still positive.

The differences are quite subtle really, they're both good d-pads.

The micro dpad was nice, but whole thing was just too small for me! I ended up selling mine... :-(

 

[fusion_power]

Try doing a 360 motion with a cross pad. You literally have to slide your thumb all over the pad to make sure that you hit all the corners (or, at best, employ exaggerated rotation of your thumb joints in lieu of the sliding motion). With the NGPC's clicky pad, minimal rotation of the thumb joints is required; 360s come out like butter. Same goes for any other maneuver.

This is one reason why I don't like the "pure" cross-shape form. The Diagonals are only "imaginary" and you have to slide over the complete Pad. For many Arcade Games this is not the best Solution. Because the Pandora will also be a emulator-Machine, we could need a Pad with Material between the X-Shape. The old Megadrive Pad was such a case, Cross-shaped but with a complete round Form under the Cross so you can hit Diagonals directly.

I hope, the Final D-Pad of the Pandora will be a good one.

Ahem... please explain just how a stick would work in a clamshell design?

No problem:

The best thing would be, if MWeston designs the D-Pad and the Pandora for easy replacement of the complete Pad. So everyone can use his fav. Design (If the Devs release some alternative spare D-Pads )