Craig's selling more Pandoras on Ebay for £135

[Gruntfuggly]

It was crystal clear from day one that backing the open pandora was a risky business, it's not like supermarket shopping.

 

Rubbish - when I ordered mine, the email said it was shipping within 6 weeks (start of 2010) - there was zero risk implied, apart from the obvious fact that I didn't actually have it in my hands. With hindsight the risk was there - nobody actually had one either, but that was not mentioned.

 

[rohezal]

@sswam: And what about those that have now lost their money and can't afford to spend more on buying another one? What happens to those people? Or are they not as important as ED and Craig's business losses (no offence to you, ED)?

If you would believe Craig, he had put a mortage on his house. So he could lose his home (same for ED and his investors, not the house but the money). The others could not get a toy for 300$, which means they have to wait until next christmas. Seeing the relations here?

It is like you have lost your nice mc donalds menu for 10$ when someone else lost his car for 10,000$. The first one is  a reason to be angry. The second is a big problem.

 

[comradekingu]

Answer to both of your questions, craigs fault. Needless to say the customer shouldnt suffer.

 

[Løra (Lolla)]

@sswam: I wonder if you would be so blasé if you were in their situation atm.


@rohezal: Ok, but what does Craig's mortgage have to do with screwing people over? And no, I wouldn't believe anything Craig says. You keep backing him up, but shouldn't he be defending himself instead of hiding like a coward?

 

[Exophase]

Indeed, their losses are not so important to me, being magnitudes smaller.

It was crystal clear from day one that backing the open pandora was a risky business, it's not like supermarket shopping.

Some people got unlucky with it, I'm sorry for that.  Bad luck.  We didn't and can't donate enough to help them get their product.  The end.

So would you condone Craig stealing hundreds of dollars from out of your pocket? What if it were because he accrued an immense debt gambling? I don't really see the difference here. He has a big debt (maybe) over risky business decisions he made that he was hoping to make a big profit off of. He chooses to sell Pandoras to new people so he can get some extra money instead of giving it to the people who funded those units, leaving it to ED and donators to spend a lot more to get new Pandoras made for them. No matter how bad his financial situation is I doubt the sales from those Pandoras on eBay is a life or death situation. Those Pandoras that he wouldn't even have if ED didn't refurbish them (but now he says that they're all bad, so I don't know what these eBay ones are supposed to be??)

 

[EssoAir]

Well.at least he has a Nissan Leaf so he doesnt need to pay for gas

 

[mcobit]

He might spend everything to buy filament for his 3D printer...

 

[rohezal]

@rohezal: Ok, but what does Craig's mortgage have to do with screwing people over?

Nope but it is a big problem. Losing my house would make me worry more then losing my preordered Pandora (which is bad enough I love this thing).

And no, I wouldn't believe anything Craig says.

I will say it a bit nicer. I am very careful when Craig says anything. I won't believe Craig until he has a good fact (like the money for ICP2  population is allready on EDs account, which is confirmed by ED. So it is not lost.).

You keep backing him up,

Nope just trying to get facts and relations right. And I fail probably quite often doing it, but hey I try^^.

but shouldn't he be defending himself instead of hiding like a coward?

Yes, but if he doesn't ... well not sure.

I don't have ordered from Craig, so I am not one of his victims (we are still talking about 300$, not 3,000$ or 30,000$). Maybe this is the reason I am not very hard with him. But from an "I can pay 100$ for a toy or I have bigger problems then not to own it" perspective, most people who have ordered could buy a voucher pandora (starting with 100€) from ED and the whole thing would end. With the donations it won't be even this high.

 

[Grench]

I had been willing to give Craig a lot of slack.  I was fine with the production delays, paying via money order - twice, and getting my Day 1 pre-order 2.5 years later.  I donated to the developer fund.  I bought the keychain.  I bought the supporter emblem.  I paid Craig $700 for a 1Ghz Pandora, and got it in that first shipment.  That $700 price was supposed to fund an additional Pandora getting shipped from the pre-order queue too.

Then I found out that Craig took my $700, got a 1Ghz Pandora from ED, shipped it to me - and didn't pay ED the ~$350 wholesale costs out of the $700+ cash I paid.  Obviously nobody got their pre-order fulfilled with a Pandora from that either.

I gave that all time to work itself out - it didn't.  Any way I could mentally account for the purchase, I could not deny the fact that I had paid Craig for property he had stolen from ED.  So, to help the cause and assuage my guilt, I donated the wholesale costs as I understood them to ED for the queue fulfillment - and then some.

I encourage everyone who ordered and received a 1Ghz Pandora from Craig to do so as well.  Craig got our $700 for doing nearly nothing.  We got our 1Ghz Pandoras from ED for free as paid for by profits out of his queue and donations.  The $700 plus ED's production costs of ~$350 vanished to Craig for EACH 1Ghz Pandora purchased through his queue.  He didn't just get your $700.  He also incurred a ~$350 debt to ED that wasn't paid.

Pay it forward folks.  Send ED's pre-order fulfillment fund the equivalent of what you would have had to pay to cross-upgrade.  Get someone else cleared from the queue.  Feel happy that your Pandora is truly 'paid for'.

 

[darkborn]

 

Thank you Grench a lot.

Unfortunately, you have people like (below) who will say

I don't have ordered from Craig, so I am not one of his victims (we are still talking about 300$, not 3,000$ or 30,000$).

Look here, ICP2 numbers:

2,168 Backers

$209,100 pledged

What does that mean to him? Obviously nothing, because ... he doesn't "have ordered from Craig" and ""we are still talking about 300$, not 3,000$ or 30,000$).

There are still 400 (?) that gave him 300-600$  (I paid $530 at March, 2009) and got nothing = 150000$; he took from ED at least 10000$, and there are dozens of people that upgraded like you, and got  - nothing.

209100, +150000, +10000, +???... I put this numbers extremely approximative,  but as you see, he is spinning around half a million dollars and thousands of victims.

But it is "just 300$" for some people, so nobody's fault.

Losing my house would make me worry

Are you suggesting that Craig got mortgage at house, aren't you? I don't believe him a word! Somebody (ED?) wrote said about OpenPandora LTD is paying taxes etc in time, so it seems like Craig paid at time what he has to (but nothing more)! He is very careful with things like this! Pro.

 

[rohezal]

Are you suggesting that Craig got mortgage at house, aren't you? I don't believe him a word!

I don't know if it is true.

he is spinning around half a million dollars

The preorder was used for the parts I hope (at least in large).

The 80K used by was used for ???

The 75K Ghz was used for ???

(The ghz money war around 50% full update for 700% and other normal upgrades. It was around 70K-80K dollars I think. This money is realy lost.).

The money for the icp2 is used for parts, engineering, LEDs, population and stuff. And some is probably missing which Craig considered as "profit", and now it is missing for keymats.

I am not sure if he actually steals money but he is pretty bad in management. The latest Pandoras ob Ebay looks like: "I need money". Maybe for the (small) ICP2 parts missing like the keymat and the mats (a few thousand dollars each). Maybe I am just wrong. I don't know it.

 

[Klumpen]

he is pretty bad in management

I'd say: He is pretty good in money management,

you just see the whole thing from the wrong perspective.

All the magically disappearing money over the time....do you think he burnt it?

 

[rohezal]

All the magically disappearing money over the time....do you think he burnt it? 

It is pretty cold in new castle .

But seriusly i noticed that i started make bad claims too (the claim he tooked ic2 money which he cnsidered as profit). this is not ok without evidence. the more i read and think, the way he manages his customers, his pandora parts and his company books, the more i think he is realy just chaotic and has lost any overview about the stuff he started and "manages".

 

[angus454]

Craig... for me this guy isn't worth the time I spent reading this thread. I'm one of the unfortunate preorders that is still waiting. this eBay fiasco pretty much confirms what I figured this guy was all about. You know what though? It doesn't matter to me. I refuse to let Craig win by allowing his actions to take away anything from me. ED is one in a million and this community is like no other.Someday I'll have my Pandora experience regardless of Craig and what he decides to do or not do. He's not part of us anymore, so I'm moving forward.

 

[Klumpen]

the more i read and think, the way he manages his customers, his pandora parts and his company books, the more i think he is realy just chaotic and has lost any overview about the stuff he started and "manages".

How do you manage to not notice floating amounts of 80k here and 40k there that have not been used yet?

I do not buy that and you shouldn't. Even ED noticed by now, that there is a bloody lot of money missing and ED even paid most of Craigs debts.

Do you think, that ED is the lying one?

 

[EvilDragon]

I wouldn't say I paid Craigs debts - I paid the outstanding payments of OpenPandora Ltd. for parts, license (for the case), etc.

It still doesn't explain where all that money went, but I certainly didn't pay any private debts he has

 

[EssoAir]

I wouldn't say I paid Craigs debts - I paid the outstanding payments of OpenPandora Ltd. for parts, license (for the case), etc.


It still doesn't explain where all that money went, but I certainly didn't pay any private debts he has

When exaxtly did you loose faith in Craig?

 

[Klumpen]

I wouldn't say I paid Craigs debts - I paid the outstanding payments of OpenPandora Ltd. for parts, license (for the case), etc.


It still doesn't explain where all that money went, but I certainly didn't pay any private debts he has

When exaxtly did you loose faith in Craig?

...and when did you lose Fatih?

 

[EvilDragon]

I wouldn't say I paid Craigs debts - I paid the outstanding payments of OpenPandora Ltd. for parts, license (for the case), etc.

It still doesn't explain where all that money went, but I certainly didn't pay any private debts he has

When exaxtly did you loose faith in Craig?

Half a year before I got the confirmation to gather investors.

I wouldn't say I paid Craigs debts - I paid the outstanding payments of OpenPandora Ltd. for parts, license (for the case), etc.

It still doesn't explain where all that money went, but I certainly didn't pay any private debts he has

When exaxtly did you loose faith in Craig?

...and when did you lose Fatih?

I didn't, he's still helping me, we're working together

He just stopped working with Craig a year before me

 

[EssoAir]

...and when did you lose Fatih?

Well Faith and I were walking in the park when all the sudden she got kidnapped. I was so scared that I ran home to get on the Open Pandora forums. Then I forgot about her. That was a few months ago. Thanks for the reminder, guy