Craig's selling more Pandoras on Ebay for £135

[FaeMinx]

My greetings also.

... and don't mind my avatar. I'm generally quite friendly... I'll be shape-shifting back into my light self after Halloween.  :wacko:   

 

[sswam]

Holy crap! I was just going to open a thread as a proud new Pandora owner...

Don't worry; and please go ahead and open that thread!

I feel like my pandora is tainted and should have gone to someone else first.

I think it should have gone to you. Be happy that you finally got your Pandora.

I remember getting such an email too. I suppose Craig did offer these repaired Pandoras to everyone on his lists, including people with outstanding pre-orders. I guess he's sold some of them direct to pre-orderers who responded to the email; some on gbax.com, and some on e-bay. Seems reasonable to me. From reading this thread it seems Craig owes ED some money or payment, and I hope he will eventually be able to pay that.

I don't agree that Craig should send Pandoras to original pre-orderers without additional payment at this stage. It would be nice if Open Pandora Ltd. or Craig had enough money to do that for everyone, but they don't.

 

[___]

    Welcome xnopasaranx

Good to see the old timers have not perished to CRT radiation.

Hehe lol. Yeah regarding CRTs: I aquired an actual Naomi Universal Cab... done a complete overhaul on it and have been playing real f***ing neo-geo for quite a while now. (no real naomi games though, they look horrible on my 15khz screen right now) I Recently dug out my gp2x and thought: I wish I had a pandora... well now I do.

Well if you think the Pandora was to cheap, you can donate to the donation pot. 120 Pounds are 140€. So the difference to a CC Pandora is 60€. Maybe you want to donate but anyway, welcome  .

 I will definately donate but I am not going to be able to afford that much right now, was thinking something like 50€. I will contribute with other donations for scene coders and will hopefully be able to contribute to the forums. Lots of good software that deserves to be bought/supported. Others can vouch for me that I have done that to a greater extent on gp32x.de... Dosbox EX is an excellent port! 

EDIT: So many edits... yeah thanks for all the warm welcomes btw!

If anyone would like to give me a scene update via pm I would be very thankful. This shit is confusing with all the craig is a backstabber and he poisoned the well attitude. I might have missed a couple of developments... 

 

[Exophase]

I don't agree that Craig should send Pandoras to original pre-orderers without additional payment at this stage. It would be nice if Open Pandora Ltd. or Craig had enough money to do that for everyone, but they don't.

You don't know a single thing about his financial situation, you just want to give him the benefit of the doubt at every turn. OpenPandora doesn't need any money to send these Pandoras to rightful recipients, except maybe S&H. Next thing you know he'll be selling pre-ordered iCP2s to new customers at bargain prices and you'll be backing him. Unless there's some kind of extremely dire life or death situation I can't possibly find this justifiable.

Watch him declare bankruptcy for OpenPandora Ltd only after he's sold every last asset and used it to pay for his own personal expenses.

 

[DisgruntleElf]

Watch him declare bankruptcy for OpenPandora Ltd only after he's sold every last asset and used it to pay for his own personal expenses.

I'm not sure that would be a wise move for him. If he declares bankruptcy doesn't he have to open his books to all his creditors? He would have to be accountable for all his transactions and if there are any possible discrepancies as the community suspect that could lead to charges. The best thing for Craig to do is what he is doing now, nothing.

 

[levi]

For a company I believe he would declare insolvency, rather than bankrupcy (which is a personal thing in the UK).  The above may still apply - no idea really, but it's worth using the right terms if you're googling for info.

 

[Y-trewq]

"I don't agree that Craig should send Pandoras to original pre-orderers without additional payment at this stage. It would be nice if Open Pandora Ltd. or Craig had enough money to do that for everyone, but they don't."

WHY he should not send them to original pre-orderers?! They already paid for them! Total, utter, complete, asshattery. Does craig pay you to defend him? I cant see any other logical reason for your behavior.

 

[EssoAir]

"I don't agree that Craig should send Pandoras to original pre-orderers without additional payment at this stage. It would be nice if Open Pandora Ltd. or Craig had enough money to do that for everyone, but they don't."


WHY he should not send them to original pre-orderers?! They already paid for them! Total, utter, complete, asshattery. Does craig pay you to defend him? I cant see any other logical reason for your behavior.

CraigX is now shilling instead of just using that money to send devoces to preorders? Im shocked !

 

[mcobit]

Yeah, don't see why he isn't giving the money he gets from those sales to ED.


He seems to need it for personal stuff, but technically those units were paid for with the money of the preorderers he ignores right now.

 

[Exophase]

Yeah, don't see why he isn't giving the money he gets from those sales to ED.

He seems to need it for personal stuff, but technically those units were paid for with the money of the preorderers he ignores right now.

If he cared about using these units to go towards the queue it'd be a lot more efficient to get preorder holders to accept them to fulfill their preorder than to sell them at these prices and give the money to ED's fund. There's no question that Craig is using the money for something else. Saying that he can't send them to preorderers or assuming that they wouldn't want them without asking are just excuses.

Does craig pay you to defend him? I cant see any other logical reason for your behavior.

Even Craig isn't that bad at managing his money

 

[hedwards]

I don't agree that Craig should send Pandoras to original pre-orderers without additional payment at this stage. It would be nice if Open Pandora Ltd. or Craig had enough money to do that for everyone, but they don't.

You don't know a single thing about his financial situation, you just want to give him the benefit of the doubt at every turn. OpenPandora doesn't need any money to send these Pandoras to rightful recipients, except maybe S&H. Next thing you know he'll be selling pre-ordered iCP2s to new customers at bargain prices and you'll be backing him. Unless there's some kind of extremely dire life or death situation I can't possibly find this justifiable.

Watch him declare bankruptcy for OpenPandora Ltd only after he's sold every last asset and used it to pay for his own personal expenses.

That's unlikely. As far as we know he hasn't done anything illegal. Incompetent and poorly considered, certainly, but we don't at present have any evidence that he's broken any laws.
Were he to sell off all the assets ahead of a bankruptcy, and used that to pay his personal, non-business, expenses, that would certainly be illegal.

That's not to say that Craig hasn't broken any laws, but from what we can see from our vantage point, it's unlikely that he's done anything that would be criminal. There's likely civil violations there, but nothing that would result in prison time as some people keep suggesting.

"I don't agree that Craig should send Pandoras to original pre-orderers without additional payment at this stage. It would be nice if Open Pandora Ltd. or Craig had enough money to do that for everyone, but they don't."

WHY he should not send them to original pre-orderers?! They already paid for them! Total, utter, complete, asshattery. Does craig pay you to defend him? I cant see any other logical reason for your behavior.

Because the reason that his queue is down to where it is, is largely because people like me opted to ugprade our units, taking us off his queue. Then there are the units that were removed because of donations and the ones that were because ED helped him out.

The situation sucks all around, but it was abundantly clear at the time I sent in my preorder request on the fifth day of preorders that we were taking a risk that could result in us getting nothing at all or something that wasn't functioning properly.

As far as defending Craig, nobody is defending him. We know that the way he's conducted his business is incompetent and poorly thought out, we just don't have any evidence of criminal wrong doing or deliberate fraud.

 

[Exophase]

That's unlikely. As far as we know he hasn't done anything illegal. Incompetent and poorly considered, certainly, but we don't at present have any evidence that he's broken any laws.

Were he to sell off all the assets ahead of a bankruptcy, and used that to pay his personal, non-business, expenses, that would certainly be illegal.

That's not to say that Craig hasn't broken any laws, but from what we can see from our vantage point, it's unlikely that he's done anything that would be criminal. There's likely civil violations there, but nothing that would result in prison time as some people keep suggesting.

We more or less know that he's been using the money from selling Pandoras on things that have nothing to do with OpenPandora Ltd's expenses. He hasn't been using it to fund the preorder queue. He doesn't have corporate debt outside of his preorder obligations. He has no recurring business costs tied to OpenPandora Ltd, and on several occasions he's admitted that he turned over all Pandora operations to ED and that everything is out of his hands now (which in his mind probably means he considers ED accountable for his preorders). If he mortgaged his house to help pay for initial expenses that's a personal expense. The assets aren't even being sold by OpenPandora Ltd directly, which is suspicious (although the seller may at least have a stake in the company).

I don't know if this only becomes illegal once he does opt for corporate bankruptcy/insolvency but if someone really does try to take him to court over this then he won't have a choice in the matter. Just look at what happened here: http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/when-kickstarter-investors-want-their-money-back.html

Because the reason that his queue is down to where it is, is largely because people like me opted to ugprade our units, taking us off his queue. Then there are the units that were removed because of donations and the ones that were because ED helped him out.

The situation sucks all around, but it was abundantly clear at the time I sent in my preorder request on the fifth day of preorders that we were taking a risk that could result in us getting nothing at all or something that wasn't functioning properly.

As far as defending Craig, nobody is defending him. We know that the way he's conducted his business is incompetent and poorly thought out, we just don't have any evidence of criminal wrong doing or deliberate fraud.

sswam has absolutely been defending Craig, although I'm not aware of anyone else at this point. Whether or not the risks of preordering were implied at the time (something many people will disagree with) doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not Craig is justified in selling Pandoras that he could be offering for free to people in the preorder queue. And I think this matter goes beyond questioning his competence and goes more towards questioning his intentions.

 

[hedwards]

That's unlikely. As far as we know he hasn't done anything illegal. Incompetent and poorly considered, certainly, but we don't at present have any evidence that he's broken any laws.

Were he to sell off all the assets ahead of a bankruptcy, and used that to pay his personal, non-business, expenses, that would certainly be illegal.

That's not to say that Craig hasn't broken any laws, but from what we can see from our vantage point, it's unlikely that he's done anything that would be criminal. There's likely civil violations there, but nothing that would result in prison time as some people keep suggesting.

We more or less know that he's been using the money from selling Pandoras on things that have nothing to do with OpenPandora Ltd's expenses. He hasn't been using it to fund the preorder queue. He doesn't have corporate debt outside of his preorder obligations. He has no recurring business costs tied to OpenPandora Ltd, and on several occasions he's admitted that he turned over all Pandora operations to ED and that everything is out of his hands now (which in his mind probably means he considers ED accountable for his preorders). If he mortgaged his house to help pay for initial expenses that's a personal expense. The assets aren't even being sold by OpenPandora Ltd directly, which is suspicious (although the seller may at least have a stake in the company).

I don't know if this only becomes illegal once he does opt for corporate bankruptcy/insolvency but if someone really does try to take him to court over this then he won't have a choice in the matter. Just look at what happened here: http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/when-kickstarter-investors-want-their-money-back.html

Likely the only good thing to come out of a lawsuit here is that we might finally know some of the details. As much as I trust ED, without the information that Craig has, it's really hard to make sense of any of this. IIRC, Craig did mortgage his house at one point to pay expenses related to the production, so if he's siphoning money off to pay that, it would explain the discrepancies and probably wouldn't be illegal either. Although, it's questionable if that expense should be paid before other outstanding balances. Technically Craig is separate from his business, but in either case it would look bad in any lawsuit that gets filed.

Obviously, that's highly speculative and without a court order to review Craig's books, we won't know for sure. And I have a suspicion that his books aren't going to be particularly informative either as they're likely not in good condition.

Because the reason that his queue is down to where it is, is largely because people like me opted to ugprade our units, taking us off his queue. Then there are the units that were removed because of donations and the ones that were because ED helped him out.

The situation sucks all around, but it was abundantly clear at the time I sent in my preorder request on the fifth day of preorders that we were taking a risk that could result in us getting nothing at all or something that wasn't functioning properly.

As far as defending Craig, nobody is defending him. We know that the way he's conducted his business is incompetent and poorly thought out, we just don't have any evidence of criminal wrong doing or deliberate fraud.

sswam has absolutely been defending Craig, although I'm not aware of anyone else at this point. Whether or not the risks of preordering were implied at the time (something many people will disagree with) doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not Craig is justified in selling Pandoras that he could be offering for free to people in the preorder queue. And I think this matter goes beyond questioning his competence and goes more towards questioning his intentions.

I might have missed that. Still, considering the number of people posting in this thread, it might have sufficed for the comment to be person defending him.

 

[rohezal]

He has no recurring business costs tied to OpenPandora Ltd,

Sure about this? Even he if pays Jaquiline or Deb some money for email "support" it would be completly legal busissness cost for open pandora ltd

 

[Exophase]

Sure about this? Even he if pays Jaquiline or Deb some money for email "support" it would be completly legal busissness cost for open pandora ltd

Support for what? When was the last time someone got support for something Pandora related?

He said everything was completely in ED's hands now. He can't have it both ways.

 

[EssoAir]

Well based on the ways things are, I think he CAN have it both ways

.


He's like a Bisexual Burger King

 

[mcobit]

Doesn't he run his gbax shop behind Openpandora ltd?