Craig's selling more Pandoras on Ebay for £135


LEGAL ACTS against him are _the_ solution, trust me. The only way to save honour of ED & Pandora both. ICP2 is collateral damage, as most of other things he touched.
As much as I also think he deserves a lesson, what would the accusation be (you or anyone else can answer...)?

There's talk here of starting a donation fund for suing someone now, but on what grounds do you sue?

Not even the people who are owed a Pandora have grounds for suing, they can request a refund or a Pandora, they can "call for bankruptcy" in extreme case... But like I've already said before: that call will just cause Craig to "buy" that pesky individual out of the case. And that individual has to accept the money and stop proceedings.

These laws and rules exist not only to protect customers, but to also protect companies from harrassment!!!

And a good thing it is that they do too, you only need to take a peek at the gorilla history of someone like Microsoft to see that small innovation companies might need more protection, not less...

I hate to say this, I really do, I am not a lawyer, but: I strongly suspect there is simply nothing you can do.

I promise this is the last time I say it in this thread :).

If all the remaining preorders were to make a really forceful claim at once that might cause his coffers to go empty and compulsory dissolution might then occur and thus someone might start investigating what happened. But even that is very unlikely. It would also mean the person who happens the be the "last straw" breaking Craigs piggybank would then be the one to continue with the proceedings. How do you know that doesn't happen to some kids parent who only wanted a neat Christmas present for his kid 5 years ago? You need quite a bit of dedication to go through that crap...

To actually really sue him you need to charge him of something like fraud and that is technically a very heavy accusation and not easily proved.

Well... if you mean "donations for hiring a lawyer to look into this" then OK... but that's not the same as suing, that's basically saying "we hire someone for a day to check there's nothing we can do".

I don't want to sound hopeless, but I do tend to be a bit of a pessimist sometimes.

Sorry about that.
 
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@MrConfusion
I am not a lawyer, but god lawyer will find out many things to sue, for sure. There is a pattern at Mr C "business" behaviour, so it could be proved that it was scam from beginning.

Actually:
as I said before, it was win-win plan for Mr C:  If Pandora suceed, he is rich and famous, new Steve Jobs. If not, well... it will be one of his "projects" in a line.

He is fair and honest, "bona fide"... just as little as he has to be.

What is warring me about is that he is clever enough to make situation that innocent people are involved, at least mostly innocent. I see that there was continuing transactions between some players here, and Mr C made Pandora & ICP2 team his hostages. At least, he owe them a lot of ...something, so some of them still believe that if he is still in business, somehow he will bring them whatever he has to - otherwise no way of it. IMHO it is so wrong, because it is Mr C sick play from the very beginning of this story - at least 5 years and is continuing.

Just look how he managed to make other company for kickstarter ICP2 project. How he managed to involve OP Team:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1703567677/icontrolpad-2-the-open-source-controller/creator_bio
 

We are Craig Rothwell, Michael Weston, Dave Cancilier, Mark Linkhorst, Jacquelyn and Debs.

We have all worked in the technology industry for over 10 years.

Many of you will have heard of projects we have been involved in such as the OpenPandora, iControlpad, GP2X &GP32.

Between us we make quite a team, we have experience...
PLANNED HOSTAGES.

For me, it is the same kind of act as a terrorism, you can't do business with people like that. Or help, feel sorry, or... anything. Jail and public embarrassment - only things he deserves.

Hundreds thousands $/€ "lost", thousands of people scammed..., same "business project" patterns for years, obvious lies in advance... and "it will be not possible to sue/arrest him"??? It is even a WRONG PREMISE, wrong way of thinking!

Personally, I do not care to loose more money, I want 1) Pandora lives 2) Preorders done 100% 3) ED &co finally get out of this situation as clean as possible 4) Pandora II 5) That Parasite PRICK get what he deserves. What ever it cost. I want him sued.

EDIT:
Just a prove about hostages:

Scott Willis on Sep 28

Additional thoughts on this ....what does Winooski, Vermont have to do with this "location" if this guy's in England? Is that to skirt the kickstarter process?

Ryan Lucas on Sep 28

@Scott Yes, it was. Last year you couldn't run a project without being in the US, so Craig had his friend "Link" of ithic.com open the LLC in Winooski, VT. After they got the money, they sent it to Craig and shut it down. When I say sent to Craig, it may also be sitting in some of the fulfillment companies. Ithic.com is the fulfillment company for North American orders. GBAX (Craig's company) handles the rest. (...)
 
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For me it feels like the poor guy really needs some money, I'm sure he's not in the best conditions right now. I don't like his behaviour in general but maybe he has serious reaons to sell these Pandoras, hmm. 
 
For me it feels like the poor guy really needs some money, I'm sure he's not in the best conditions right now. I don't like his behaviour in general but maybe he has serious reaons to sell these Pandoras, hmm. 
"Maybe".... you do not know that and ED hinted, that it is quite unlikely, because he paid most of his debts.

He should defend himself and he did in form of many obvious lies until people were fed up with it.

Why defending someone who does neither respect nor care for other people?
 
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For me it feels like the poor guy really needs some money, I'm sure he's not in the best conditions right now. I don't like his behaviour in general but maybe he has serious reaons to sell these Pandoras, hmm. 
"Poor guy" scr*wed thousands of people and spent hundreds of thousands $$$. No, we are poor, he's a parasite.

Next post of him will be: "I have a cancer / AIDS, I know you think that I was planning that but ..." He is a LIAR, and ENJOYS to scr*w people. It is his "business model". You are also liar, stupid or his helper. Embarrassing. I am not surprised anymore with his behavior anymore, won't be as long I see those stupid comments.

HOW MANY MONEY/YEARS/*** YOU NEED TO GET IT? IS IT INTERNATIONAL MASOCHISM SOCIETY I AM INVOLVED IN?

HE managed to scr*w thousands, but he can't send proper list of preorders to ED? Where is it, ED? I know you are bussy too - but please stop that BS with private mails, It  is Craig's game. Why are you guys covering him anymore????? For what good is it? Pandora's? NO WAY.
 
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1703567677/icontrolpad-2-the-open-source-controller/creator_bio

We are Craig Rothwell, Michael Weston, Dave Cancilier, Mark Linkhorst, Jacquelyn and Debs.

We have all worked in the technology industry for over 10 years.

Many of you will have heard of projects we have been involved in such as the OpenPandora, iControlpad, GP2X &GP32.

Between us we make quite a team, we have experience...
Just a prove about hostages:

Scott Willis on Sep 28
Additional thoughts on this ....what does Winooski, Vermont have to do with this "location" if this guy's in England? Is that to skirt the kickstarter process?

Ryan Lucas on Sep 28
@Scott Yes, it was. Last year you couldn't run a project without being in the US, so Craig had his friend "Link" of ithic.com open the LLC in Winooski, VT. After they got the money, they sent it to Craig and shut it down. When I say sent to Craig, it may also be sitting in some of the fulfillment companies. Ithic.com is the fulfillment company for North American orders. GBAX (Craig's company) handles the rest. (...)
How exactly were they "involved" in GP2X and GP32?
 
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HE managed to scr*w thousands, but he can't send proper list of preorders to ED? Where is it, ED? I know you are bussy too - but please stop that BS with private mails, It  is Craig's game. Why are you guys covering him anymore????? For what good is it? Pandora's? NO WAY.
Eh? I got the list of all people who filled out the survey, how do you think I do contact the people who upgrade...?
 
HE managed to scr*w thousands, but he can't send proper list of preorders to ED? Where is it, ED? I know you are bussy too - but please stop that BS with private mails, It  is Craig's game. Why are you guys covering him anymore????? For what good is it? Pandora's? NO WAY.
Eh? I got the list of all people who filled out the survey, how do you think I do contact the people who upgrade...?
Yes, but we are listening that for MONTHS. And nobody  - YOU FIRST - do not know is it complete or hundreds more are absent... Why do not make it public???

Who could be hurt, and how much more could be hurt?

Your sick games "he is naughty/ I am good" is ruining you more than you think. You are his hostage, and it is like cancer - you can't get aspirin, or cut out just a tiny part and hope you'll be ok now. It has to be disinfected, and damage will last for years. e.g. people are talking around about OpenPandora, OpenMoko... as a prove that open source / community projects could not work as a business model in praxis. And you can't get out of this story as a saint - outside of this community.


All things should be public, f*k your little "business secrets" etc. Everybody involved here (and we are all in it at some way) = HOSTAGES.
 
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How exactly were they "involved" in GP2X and GP32?
Exactly, my point too. Of course that has nothing relevant with true. Of course that Link just tried to "do the right thing", We do not have to mention ED... But guy who made this writings and whole Product3 LLC construct (and I'm 120% sure it is Mr C) did it with intention to sc*w people. So, time-pattern is full of lies, and it could be proven that those are not random lies, but intentions to sc*w people.


I really don't care is he doing for his very sick mother/sister, hungry people of Ethiopia or else. He did it in purpose, and people around involved are witnesses of his dirtiness...

Hostages are covering him. It is becoming to look like Stockholm syndrome
 
Your sick games "he is naughty/ I am good" is ruining you more than you think.
Hey no Word against ED,he is a good,brave,truly and friendly Person.


Without him is the Entire Project Death.Did you know how often Rescued ED and the Community the Project?


Such Words make me Angry because i met ED in real and he is very friendly and say ever the Truth and he stand ever to his Words.


When you say Things against ED,then say you Things against the Community,because we know it better who is him.


@ED big Thx to you again for all what you for us do ;)
 
ED has to be a guy with lots of positive energy and a stable mood to bear all the bad vibrations in this community caused by incompetent and dubious companies and business partners.
 
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@ingoreis

ED is probably the biggest victim of Mr C, but he is still responsible for cover him up. I really wants that he get out of this as a winner, but... whole crew made stupid moves, and Mr C is always 2 steps before them. He is making moves, other follows. Which is pity.

@Klumpen

Yeah, ED is great but his kindness is Achilles heel against Mr C... like Yin & Yang. My point is that parasite can't exist without a host, so hosts should be more responsible :-(

I'm sorry folks I'm rude, I am screaming inside because of whole situation... it is so unfair. I knew it, but I could not help it... and it is still not over.

Craig behaves "smart" like US economy:
when somebody owes you a reasonable amount, he has a problem. When somebody owes you BIG amount, YOU have a problem.
YOU have to handle it, because now YOU're in trouble. Scr*w you... No passaran!
 
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I would like to advice everybody involved to put their head in a bucket of cold water, take a deep breath or three (after having taken the head out of the bucket, of course), count to ten, and then mind your manners and language before posting. Thank you.
 
I would like to advice everybody involved to put their head in a bucket of cold water, take a deep breath or three (after having taken the head out of the bucket, of course), count to ten, and then mind your manners and language before posting. Thank you.
Alternatively we can let this be a shit show and then delete the thread late so no kne that wasnt here can read it
 
HE managed to scr*w thousands, but he can't send proper list of preorders to ED? Where is it, ED? I know you are bussy too - but please stop that BS with private mails, It  is Craig's game. Why are you guys covering him anymore????? For what good is it? Pandora's? NO WAY.
Eh? I got the list of all people who filled out the survey, how do you think I do contact the people who upgrade...?
Yes, but we are listening that for MONTHS. And nobody  - YOU FIRST - do not know is it complete or hundreds more are absent... Why do not make it public???
eMails and customer data cannot be made public for legal reasons.

And a public list with artifical numbers doesn't really make sense, does it?

And sending the numbers to the customers doesn't make sense either. The problem seems to be that not all of them get the eMail, so they wouldn't also get the number.

I can tell you that about 440 are still left in the survey, about 60 have been shipped to preorder customers since I received the survey.

Who could be hurt, and how much more could be hurt?
The customer. I wouldn't want to have my eMail public.

Your sick games "he is naughty/ I am good" is ruining you more than you think.
Great. What is your suggestion?

Should I stop deliver units to Craigs preorder customers and don't care about them anymore?

Craig won't do ANYTHING anymore, he doesn't listen to anyone.

So if you're trying to achieve anything here, you're talking to the wrong person.

You can give suggestions to me, and I'm happy to get good suggestions.

But I guess I can either support Craigs remaining customers or let it be.

Not much more I can do here.

You are his hostage, and it is like cancer
Where exactly am I his hostage?

I started to cut wires to him years ago and moved everything (parts, production, etc.) to my company.

Whether he files for bankruptcy or not doesn't affect me in the slightest.

More than once did I make clear that these are two different companies, it's pretty much public knowledge.

It's my own decision to help out Craigs remaining preorders.

I can do that when he files for bankruptcy or I can let it be.

He doesn't have any control over that anymore.

All things should be public, f*k your little "business secrets" etc. Everybody involved here (and we are all in it at some way) = HOSTAGES.
And what business secret do I have...?

@ingoreis

ED is probably the biggest victim of Mr C, but he is still responsible for cover him up. I really wants that he get out of this as a winner, but... whole crew made stupid moves, and Mr C is always 2 steps before them. He is making moves, other follows. Which is pity.
Nope, I am not responsible.

I am doing this of my own free will.

I could stop helping out Craigs remaining preorders and no one could do anything against that.
 
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I am very happy that ED is such a nice guy and helps craigs old preorder customer :) . Please continue your great and kind work.

About craig:

He killed nobody, he maybe has embezzled Pandora parts, and mostly he just is a bad manager. Now it looks like he is selling units, builded out of refurbished parts ,which could be sended to his customers (if they would accept them). The selling would be legal if he would use the money to pay refunds or build new Pandoras for his customers. I think he won't do it. A legal thing (I believe) he could also do, would be to give the selling money as credit to project3 (ICP2), use it for building the product, and take the money + interestes from project3 when it is done. But I am not sure he would do it. Probably he won't.

So yes, based on Craigs actions and posts, he seems to be a fishy busissness man. He tried to build the Pandora, which worked a bit. But he could only deliver a few units and now he is selling units made from refurbished parts and don't tell where the money goes. This all could maybe be embezzlement, bad luck and lack of management skills. But he is still not "cancer" or a "very bad person". He is maybe a "bad person", which is lying to his busissness partner.
 
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He is maybe a "bad person", which is lying to his busissness partner.
Really? How much money then you took from naive people if he is just a maybe bad person? More then him, millions? Great for you then.

When you're covering LIAR as he is, why should anybody trust a word from you?

It last from years, and you know it, so please: become a donator, indemnify few hundreds people here and few thousands waiting for ICP2 - or shut up.

Alternatively we can let this be a shit show and then delete the thread late so no kne that wasnt here can read it
Please, cover it, hide it... so that this tragic game last for a few years more, and so that Mr C can parasite few thousands people more.

@EvilDragon

I don't want to argue too much but please, read it slowly. I am not accusing you for doing bad things directly. Just be patient.

You are trivializing whole problem to "I am just helping this out" (and I don't have to). So this is it, if we are adoring you, then ok, but we have to be quiet, or... you'll leave us? Or is there other reasons to repeat FOUR times:

  1. Should I stop deliver units to Craigs preorder customers and don't care about them anymore?
  2. But I guess I can either support Craigs remaining customers or let it be.
  3. It's my own decision to help out Craigs remaining preorders.
  4. I could stop helping out Craigs remaining preorders and no one could do anything against that.
I do not want to be part of this "chain of guilt", it is sick. Thanks for helping it, but you DID some things that we did not know about it at time, and... I feel that many of you know much more of Mr C "operations". More about it later.

eMails and customer data cannot be made public for legal reasons.


And a public list with artifical numbers doesn't really make sense, does it?
I believe you will not make artifical numbers, I trust you, and most people here do.

And, let us decide does it have sense, please???

Beside, eMails could be hidden enough and you do know that well.

And last, but not the least:

You won't let "customer data" out because of legal reasons, even if that could help to stop Mr C make bad things to people?

People that send money and get nothing in return, have right to give you legal permission to make part of their order data public.

You have just to ask them, or find somebody that you trust, to do that for you.

You are our last hope, ED-Wan Kenobi.

You know, transparency, no hush-hush anymore.

Public list, please: thousands got Pandora, few hundreds did not. People will donate money / upgrade if they see it at one place.

Because, _that_ kind of kickstarter (based on that kind of transparent data) will give us solution for preorders mess. And the best possible way out.

> And what business secret do I have...?
As a first, I am not accusing you, just I am appealing to be much responsible to "that" kind of people:

You did continuing sell parts to Mr C, fixed him broken nubs free of charge. Indirectly sponsoring him.

It seems like it was your "act of kindness", but as we see - it was just giving that person power to continue to do what he does.

After he *** his customers, and after he *** them again with Rebirth/upgrade story, you gave him a chance to do it again (by selling it @ebay).

If you asked people here, by "private mail" (or whatever): "Should I give him another chance?", there is a big probability that most people will say:

"Look ED, you're a nice guy, but this is like a give a drug to drug-addict". Unfortunately, that was not public but your private decision.

You (he, everybody...) can't be half a decent man, and half a dirty player, agree? So, you can't do business again and again with somebody of that kind, and trivializing it with: "I'm just helping here, I did not know what is he doing until now, and what he _could_ do if I help him again."

And thing about ICP2 will explode for sure, and many of you have your part in it. We know that Mr. C has a master degree in accusing everybody then himself for faults, so be warned: you'll be guilty, he will find a way to do it.

It is just example, do not trade with this guy anymore, send PUBLIC warning to your common (ex) business partners... this thing is more big then you imagine. He will find a way to <ehm> you again.

Last thing you need is connection ED = scam, and this prick is very dangerous. You stole him his preciousss. So this is answer to

Where exactly am I his hostage?
We are all, but: as there is only one remaining unsatisfied preorder, or investor, you are in situation to get accused / get dirt on your name because of that situation. As Mr C said: "I do not have anything with that anymore, everything is in ED's hands". Do not forget that he publicly said that you broke the arrangement between you both (omg how is this sick to write about). So it is just a question of time he will try again to make things like this construct.

You are smart, decent and logical - and you do know what FUD is. This is where he holds you.

And this guy acts like he has nothing to loose. Dangerous.

Pandora project should be cut out of Craig, not just because he is doing much more damage then whatever he contributed to project, but also because he is hurting people beyond Pandora project. There is no excuse for that behaviour, whatever you do can not fix damage he did/is doing/is planning to do.

Pandora was a jumping board for ICP2, ("we have been involved in such as the OpenPandora, iControlpad, GP2X &GP32"), and he will hurt more people just if he could, using you and Pandora.
 
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Not even the people who are owed a Pandora have grounds for suing, they can request a refund or a Pandora, they can "call for bankruptcy" in extreme case... But like I've already said before: that call will just cause Craig to "buy" that pesky individual out of the case. And that individual has to accept the money and stop proceedings.
So what you're saying is that if people threatened legal action it wouldn't work because Craig would just give them their Pandoras? Sounds like a good plan to me...

Has anyone thought about contacting Jacquelyn about these units? Since she's the one actually selling them on eBay. Would be most effective if it was someone who was willing to accept the unit to fulfill an outstanding preorder. Maybe could get some information as to why she's the one selling them, since it's pretty fishy. Maybe Craig "gave" them to her company.
 
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I still guess that Jacquelyn selling them on ebay is a way for him to not need to pay tax for them and that he can do what he wants with the money afterwards.


That's just a guess though, as it would be quite illegal.
 
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