COVID-19 / Coronavirus Pandemic

[levi]

Source: https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/332293/WHO-2019-nCov-IPC_Masks-2020.4-eng.pdf

Yes, although that is old information, and I'm suspicious about that url; it could be user supplied data designed to sow suspicion amongst its readership.

Some more reliable links for you:

Face masks

www.health.govt.nz

Masks and Respirators

Wear a mask with the best fit, protection, and comfort for you.

www.cdc.gov

https://www.unicef.org/coronavirus/covid-19-and-masks-tips-families (at time of writing, written or updated last month)

Masks - Coronavirus

The COVID-19 masking guidance for Virginia

www.vdh.virginia.gov

Archive Timeline

www.gov.scot

I still habitually put on a mask every time I leave the house, and watch what surfaces I touch, and wash my hands as soon as I get home.

 

[Bosbeetle]

Doe niet zo moeilijk, hou je gewoon bezig met je eigen zaken in de supermarkt en blijf lekker weg bij anderen als je vaccine niet goed genoeg werkt om je te beschermen.

There is nothing that I want from you or need you to do for me at all while you demand that I either lose my medical freedom (a major violation of human rights) or live as a second-rate ostracised citisen (also a major violation of human rights). Yet I am the one being difficult?

The irony is that if you got what you wanted then you would be the one to get ostracised. The majority of the Dutch people seem to be with me on this one, which means that if you got what you wished for then instead of ostracising a minority from society you would ostracise most of society from the minority that you belong to; thus in effect ostracising yourself from society. The only reason that this does not happen is because you have our government on your side and they fight against democracy, freedom, and human rights. Though really, they are also fighting to oppress you (if you are Dutch), so saying that they are on your side may be a bit of a stretch.


Other stuff. I love Pepijn van Houwelingen's debate against Fuhrer de Jonge. Pepijn was skeptical against the RiVM and thus asked for the original data. Fuhrer de Jonge responded by saying that asking for evidence or data is horrible and that we must just trust the institutions without any evidence. This conversation is actually pretty typical for the House of "Representatives". Too bad that people from hospitals have now gone on record saying that most clients in hospitals (typically 80%) are vaccinated, which is in stark contrast to what the RiVM says as the RiVM says that the vast majority is unvaccinated. Considering that this is one of their major arguments for getting vaccinated and that that argument would be turned against them if the hospitals are correct, the RiVM would certainly greatly benefit from releasing their data, if it really is as they say. Yet the refuse to release it without giving any real reason.

Yeah okay, so there are two numbers floating around one by the official government institute says 80% of covid patiënts on the IC are unvaccinated, and another that claims the oppositie, don't know where you get that one from. And you choose to beleive the one that goes with your stand on this. Very covenient.

Also you claim a majority thinks like you, however there is a quite high vaccination rate in the Netherlands of more than 70% wich makes me wonder if you are majority.

Also I think measures should end after vaccination cause there is no alternative after that, but I don't care to beleive in a big set up conspiracy I simply think governments are not capabel enough for that.

But by all means keep calling out all these amercanisms of about lacking freedom I don't think that repeating that mantra to yourself (Or us) will make you more free. Look around you, and compare dutch measures to countries around you, you live in an extremely free country.

Just to repeat you are allowed to not vaccinate, you are allowed to not wear a facemask with the exception of the trains and shops, you are allowed to go the big gatherings of people if you are unvaccinated , you only need a test that's provided to you freely. You are allowed to protest, you even are allowed to join a religion that is exempt from waring masks even when they gather in big groups. You are even given care when you do end up in a hospital due to neglegt of some precausion measures. This talk about bodily integrety does not hold since you still have all options open. The world around you changed, but you are still free to choose.


( oh and the you choose your own health by lifestyle choises is an appaling way of thinking, and completely disrespectful, I hope you never get ill but when you do you might get it, there is nobody in the world that willingly chooses to get an illness, and nobody in the world that can prevent all illness through beter living, so please stop telling/thinking that illness is a fault of the ill)

 

[Phlyra]

Also I think measures should end after vaccination cause there is no alternative after that

Precisely why measures should continue and, in fact, why we should all go for a zero Covid policy because doing otherwise, as you suggest, just ends up with a situation like England’s...

 

[Bosbeetle]

Precisely why measures should continue and, in fact, why we should all go for a zero Covid policy because doing otherwise, as you suggest, just ends up with a situation like England’s...

I don't beleive a zero covid is possible, I think that's a level of control we cannot achieve, it might be okay to aim for it but setting the goal to high is also discouraging the cause. I think we have to accept we are in a red queen race with virusses and we can only keep up. (the red queen theory states that like in the red queen story of alice in wonderland we have to run to stay in the same place, meaning to stay ahead or (at the same place) with virusses we have to evolve, we evolve slower but with bigger leaps than virusses so we have to run just as fast but differently). It is an illusion to fully temper a virus that already has such a big load around the world, we have to stay realistic and our best guess is our own immune system we might enhance our immune system a bit with masks since our major immune system component still is our skin and mucous layers and physical defences. And we might aid our immune system by vaccinating. I think we're catching up to where we are a bit ahead or running at the same level again. I would say low covid is the best achievable.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

Yeah okay, so there are two numbers floating around one by the official government institute says 80% of covid patiënts on the IC are unvaccinated, and another that claims the oppositie, don't know where you get that one from. And you choose to beleive the one that goes with your stand on this. Very covenient.

You oversimplified, skipping over essential details. The point is that the our Fuhrers refuse to give us insight into their numbers. There is no reason why they would refuse to show the data or give details if they had it. They are allowed to share this kind of information and doing so would greatly strengthen their case. Because of that, them refusing hurts their credibility.

Also you claim a majority thinks like you, however there is a quite high vaccination rate in the Netherlands of more than 70% wich makes me wonder if you are majority.

People are being pressured to take the "vaccine". This means that likely not everyone who got the "vaccine" wanted the "vaccine". Some people did not want it but took it anyway hoping that it would make the government back off.

But the last few weeks there was no pressure for masks either way yet the vast majority choose to be maskless. So in that regard I am in the vast majority. That is what I claimed.

But by all means keep calling out all these amercanisms of about lacking freedom I don't think that repeating that mantra to yourself (Or us) will make you more free.

Medical freedom and having control over your own body is not an Americanism, it is a basic human right. The government using it's power to coerce people into a medical treatment which those people themselves do not want is criminal.

Look around you, and compare dutch measures to countries around you, you live in an extremely free country.

The regime is worldwide, I know, I saw this regime coming years in advance. But how does the regime being worldwide help any of us? Our basic human rights are still being violated. It being worldwide just means that we have nowhere to run.

Just to repeat you are allowed to not vaccinate,

Depends on your definition of "allowed". We certainly get punished for not taking the "vaccine", so in that sense we are not allowed to refuse it.

you are allowed to not wear a facemask with the exception of the trains and shops

Wrong. You must wear a mask in all enclosed public spaces, except those where you practice fornication.

you are allowed to go the big gatherings of people if you are unvaccinated , you only need a test that's provided to you freely

So to live a "normal life" I need to frequently visit a test-center to have a stick pushed against my brain through my nose unless I get the medical procedure which I am totally not coerced into taking. At this point the penalty for refusing the "vaccine" is worse than the penalty for many felonies are.

You are even given care when you do end up in a hospital due to neglegt of some precausion measures.

That is one of our basic human rights also. We give smokers care for lung cancer, obese people care for every diseases that their junkfood diet caused, alcoholics care for liver issues, etc. Nothing special about that, just one of our basic human rights. Ironically though, this is one of the basic human rights that I do not need, as all the medical care that I need is to be left alone by the medical industry.

This talk about bodily integrety does not hold since you still have all options open.

Sure, we can refuse the "vaccine", it just means that we need to take frequent tests. we can refuse frequent tests, that just means that we must take the "vaccine"; or we can take neither and live a secluded life in poverty as an ostracised citisen. we are not being coerced to do anything, they will just ruin our lives if we do not take some of their medical procedures.

( oh and the you choose your own health by lifestyle choises is an appaling way of thinking, and completely disrespectful, I hope you never get ill but when you do you might get it, there is nobody in the world that willingly chooses to get an illness, and nobody in the world that can prevent all illness through beter living, so please stop telling/thinking that illness is a fault of the ill)

You are even given care when you do end up in a hospital due to neglegt of some precausion measures.

Quote 1 calls me disrespectful for saying that some people caused their own disease. Quote 2, from the same post as quote 1, implies that some people suffering in the hospital got there because they caused their own disease.

 

[Bosbeetle]

Quote 1 calls me disrespectful for saying that some people caused their own disease. Quote 2, from the same post as quote 1, implies that some people suffering in the hospital got there because they caused their own disease.

Nope I said you get care even if you don't take precausions, which I agree is a basic human right, and that right is not taken away from you. But we agree on that.

Anyway using Fuhrers and putting vaccine in quotation marks does not help, and for me disqualifies you from a reasonable disiscussion. Similar tactics as the person in your fvd video uses (or should I say your fuhrer uses in his propaganda ). Lets just say we live in different realities I'll never visit yours. And I'll leave it at that.

 

[TeDaDeS]

Yes, although that is old information, and I'm suspicious about that url; it could be user supplied data designed to sow suspicion amongst its readership.

Some more reliable links for you:

Face masks

www.health.govt.nz

Masks and Respirators

Wear a mask with the best fit, protection, and comfort for you.

www.cdc.gov

https://www.unicef.org/coronavirus/covid-19-and-masks-tips-families (at time of writing, written or updated last month)

Masks - Coronavirus

The COVID-19 masking guidance for Virginia

www.vdh.virginia.gov

Archive Timeline

www.gov.scot

I still habitually put on a mask every time I leave the house, and watch what surfaces I touch, and wash my hands as soon as I get home.

Note that the WHO does advice to wear a face mask, just like the links you provided.
But the WHO also notes there is inconsistent scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of masking the public.

It was the latest advice I could find by the WHO, the link is on this page. I did notice there are newer documents but the WHO IRIS site has a stupid search function which doesn't sort on latest available documents:

Advice on the use of masks in the context of COVID-19: interim guidance, 5 June 2020

apps.who.int

Latest document I've seen was May 2021, but it points to the document from Dec 2020: https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/341570 / https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...CoV-IPC-Masks-Comm-health-care-2021.1-eng.pdf

You can also see that there are difference between countries and the WHO advice.
Your CDC source: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/about-face-coverings.html
"Everyone 2 years of age or older who is not fully vaccinated should wear a mask in indoor public places."
WHO recommendation (page 2): https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/337199 / https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/337199/WHO-2019-nCov-IPC_Masks-2020.5-eng.pdf
"Children aged up to five years should not wear masks for source control"

Same document (1 Dec 2020):
"At present there is only limited and inconsistent scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of masking of healthy people in the community to prevent infection with respiratory viruses, including SARS-CoV-2 (75). A large randomized community-based trial in which 4862 healthy participants were divided into a group wearing medical/surgical masks and a control group found no difference in infection with SARS-CoV-2 (76). A recent systematic review found nine trials (of which eight were cluster-randomized controlled trials in which clusters of people, versus individuals, were randomized) comparing medical/surgical masks versus no masks to prevent the spread of viral respiratory illness. Two trials were with healthcare workers and seven in the community. The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the prevention of influenza-like illness (ILI) (RR 0.99, 95%CI 0.82 to 1.18) or laboratory confirmed illness (LCI) (RR 0.91, 95%CI 0.66-1.26) (44); the certainty of the evidence was low for ILI, moderate for LCI."

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

Nope I said you get care even if you don't take precausions, which I agree is a basic human right, and that right is not taken away from you. But we agree on that.

You said more than just that:

You are even given care when you do end up in a hospital due to neglegt of some precausion measures.

emphasis mine. You blamed people ending up in the hospital on neglect of the measures.

Here is a good question: Are there people in the hospital who chose to not get the "vaccine" and who could have prevented their hospitalisation by getting the "vaccine"?

- Yes? In that case:

please stop telling/thinking that illness is a fault of the ill)

- No? Then de Jonge and Rutte are wrong and the "vaccines" do not work. So why support the coercion of people to get it against their will?

If people cannot protect their health through their own actions, then they cannot protect their health through following the measures, and that means that the measures are useless. And so the belief that people can protect their health through their own actions is foundational to your argument. So you calling me out on even thinking that shows that you hold contradictory beliefs. You believe something which implies it to be true while at the same time believing it to be false.

 

[levi]

Same document (1 Dec 2020):
"At present there is only limited and inconsistent scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of masking of healthy people in the community to prevent infection with respiratory viruses, including SARS-CoV-2 (75).

That at least I can agree on. Wearing a mask if you're infected won't stop you getting infected if you share space with a carrier in a space with minimal airflow (normally indoors). I wear a mask because I'm not 100% sure I'm not a carrier. I don't think I'm infected, but I did have a sore throat the other day. I watch what I touch and avoid touching my face and wash my hands as soon as I get in to avoid carrying the virus into the home environment, but the mask is to stop me passing the virus on if I don't realise I've got it.

 

[Phlyra]

Why scientists worldwide are watching UK COVID infections

The country’s relaxation of measures such as masking — especially in England — is showing the limits of relying on vaccines alone.

www.nature.com

 

[netcat]

Lambda. go be with the maskless people.

 

[pyrat]

Why scientists worldwide are watching UK COVID infections

The country’s relaxation of measures such as masking — especially in England — is showing the limits of relying on vaccines alone.

www.nature.com

Pfizer–BioNTech and Oxford–AstraZeneca vaccines were 90% and 91% effective, respectively, at preventing death

Funny that. I thought the publicity early on was that AZ was worse than Pfizer ?

The World Health Organization has criticized the roll-out of third doses in wealthy nations when many people in poorer ones are yet to receive their first. But boosters could get the United Kingdom through the coming winter without new restrictions being imposed,

I'm with the WHO here and find it very sad that it's so matteroffactly written that people care so little about life or death of others that they don't want to refrain from dinning out.

Btw, did you hear that a subcontractor of Pfizer cured blindness ? !!! Pity that it was clinical trial blindness, not people blindness. Its seems QA at the clinical trials to get Emergency Authorizations was not all that scrupulous everywhere.

https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Co...rfe-gegen-Pfizer-Vertragspartner-6250935.html

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Experts say the deviations are not so serious and that it doesn't matter now anymore because thousands of millions of does have been given, and I know lots of people who had Pfizer and none died of COVID-19 (one in hospital, few infected).
So yeah, the vaccine most likely works, but we need all the authorisation system working too.

So please all: masks, wash hands, distance, etc.

 

[TeDaDeS]

That at least I can agree on. Wearing a mask if you're infected won't stop you getting infected if you share space with a carrier in a space with minimal airflow (normally indoors). I wear a mask because I'm not 100% sure I'm not a carrier. I don't think I'm infected, but I did have a sore throat the other day. I watch what I touch and avoid touching my face and wash my hands as soon as I get in to avoid carrying the virus into the home environment, but the mask is to stop me passing the virus on if I don't realise I've got it.

Which is also the advice of WHO, all other things you mentioned you do:

"The use of a mask should always be accompanied by other infection prevention and control (IPC) measures such as physical distancing of at least 1 metre, hand hygiene, avoidance of touching one’s face, and respiratory etiquette using a bent elbow whenever coughing or sneezing. Limiting stay in crowded or enclosed spaces, ensuring adequate ventilation of indoor settings (6), and regularly cleaning high-touch surfaces are also key precautionary measures to follow. Their implementation in coordination with broader public health and social measures (PHSMs) such as testing, contact tracing, quarantine and isolation is critical to prevent human-to-human transmission of SARS-CoV-2"
Source: https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...CoV-IPC-Masks-Comm-health-care-2021.1-eng.pdf

 

[levi]

Funny that. I thought the publicity early on was that AZ was worse than Pfizer ?

There's a very slight risk from the AZ dose that you'll get a blood clot going where it oughtn't, but that doesn't stop it being an effective vaccine especially if you didn't get a blood clot, like I didn't.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

Anyway using Fuhrers and putting vaccine in quotation marks does not help, and for me disqualifies you from a reasonable disiscussion.

Your behaviour certainly suggests otherwise. I have been doing that since before you started discussing this with me yet you still had a lengthy discussion with me during which you never objected to me doing that or even mentioned it. Only now did it suddenly become an insurmountable problem.

Though I guess that the "fuhrer" part is a bit much, even though it is quite accurate. But it serves no real purpose besides giving people a stick to hit me with.

However the quotes around "vaccine" are perfectly reasonable. The mRNA objectively is not a vaccine according to the definition used by almost all of the existing literature on vaccines. Calling it a "vaccine" is therefore misleading. It makes perfect sense for me to want to avoid that confusion by drawing attention to the fact that this is not a "vaccine" in the old sense and that we are now speaking with a new language that has been prescribed to us by the mRNA injection vendors. Until the new definition of "vaccine" has been so ingrained that everyone knows it and that a large part of the writings on it use that new definition, I will be drawing attention to the fact that right now we are working with two similar but incompatible definitions of "vaccine". I get that the mRNA injections actually being vaccines would strengthen your point because it would mean that they are not experimental and not rushed, but the fact is that they are experimental and no fiddling with language is going to magically rewrite that part of reality.

Similar tactics as the person in your fvd video uses (or should I say your fuhrer uses in his propaganda )

You mean using facts? Thierry was the only one using facts and real arguments, all the other folks were doing nothing but throwing around ad hominems or, worst of all, turning out and fiddling with their phone. Thierry did use a few ad hominems, but let's not commit a fallacy fallacy, he was still the only one using real arguments and those arguments never got addressed.

Lets just say we live in different realities I'll never visit yours. And I'll leave it at that.

I knew that this regime would come since years before it happened, so you already are in my reality. And you will probably stay there for the coming years as the measures continue, the economy gets destroyed, the fiat currencies collapse, the new world government gets installed, and we never return to the old normal again.

 

[ible]

the vaccine is safe and effective, whether you want to put it in quotes or not... most (practically all?) bad reactions to a vaccine happen within a few weeks, and we have data up to many months now for tons of people.

perhaps relevant:

This thread is for the current pandemic which we're all facing worldwide due to how unfortunately contagious it is.

This thread also replaces the previous thread which we had, that was locked due to constant trolling etc and a lot of work / effort would be needed to clean it up.

Please keep conversation civil and factual..

 

[pyrat]

There's a very slight risk from the AZ dose that you'll get a blood clot going where it oughtn't, but that doesn't stop it being an effective vaccine especially if you didn't get a blood clot, like I didn't.

Yes, I know the press went hyperbolic about clots (I would complain too if they hadn't said anything, so...). But I meant that I seem to remember seeing figures around 90% efficiency for Pfizer and around 70% for AZ.
More recently I've read that Pfizer loses effectivity after few months and then they end finally both around 70% or so. Dont quote me on this. I don't remember and I'm tired. I think this was for symptomatic CVOID-19 and the 90/91 % I copied earlier was for death, so apples and oranges, but anyway.

 

[levi]

I meant that I seem to remember seeing figures around 90% efficiency for Pfizer and around 70% for AZ.
More recently I've read that Pfizer loses effectivity after few months and then they end finally both around 70% or so. Dont quote me on this. I don't remember and I'm tired. I think this was for symptomatic CVOID-19 and the 90/91 % I copied earlier was for death, so apples and oranges, but anyway.

Yes, I too have been bamboozled by numbers being thrown at me.

 

[TeDaDeS]

wear a mask, get the vaccine, save a life.

super heroes wear masks

no need to dispute this over and over... i thought the thread was going to get locked down if it was overrun by contrarians again

If everyone would agree this would also be a very boring topic.
But I also agree that it's a sensitive topic as it affects everyone personally and if we have a discussion we should keep it civil.

What I notice is that a lot of discussion also mix in politics (policy) compared to science/facts causing arguments to be interpreted the wrong way.
I've seen many statistic or fact being easily countered with logical explanations and other research and I appreciate that this happens. Even if not, some people gave me good insights even though I still think they are incorrect.
Most of the arguments made are usually based on facts but there is still a nuance to them also.
For example:
Wearing a masks by itself isn't effective enough, you need to do not only that. And the type of mask and how you use it matters.
Vaccines work, you should get it if your eligible, but check which one is best for you. Not just randomly take one: as some are more effective and some are known to have possible side-effects, and your doctor can help with this decision.
The nuance in these statements: if you use your mask improperly or take the wrong vaccine: it could cost a life. Leave medical stuff up to doctors, not politicians. Everyone can be wrong, but this topic could let us know when we are.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

The regime is worldwide, I know, I saw this regime coming years in advance. But how does the regime being worldwide help any of us? Our basic human rights are still being violated. It being worldwide just means that we have nowhere to run.

True, and we were warned by so many writers and movies...