Center Click Vs More Travel

[God Ginrai]

Because all those people who want the extra buttons are all soldering experts from Benheck.com, right? Btw, I'm not even a fan of the PS1 and I still believe that we should have stick click.

I thought this topic had been done to death - the devs are going to have to decide the best solution but if there is no click stick / decent travel solution it will delay the project further and potentially require a hefty investment. Then the choice becomes click stick or increased travel, travel being considered more important by most.

The delay should not be a concern when it comes to getting the controls right. I do see the problem of the extra money invested, but there might be ways that that can still work. Not to mention, most of the arguments against stick click have all been made by people who are against delay, the price issue hasn't been touched much.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

Actually, as many have mentioned, I would argue that a delay should be considered a concern. The next big thing is always right around the corner. Speculatively, the pandora is delayed such that 3 months from now, just as the Pandora is about to be released, TI announces a new chip, more powerful than current but fully backwards compatible, to be released 3 months later. Do you delay it again by 3 months for the new, better chip? In the thrust for perfection, you do. But by then there's a new, improved screen they can use, to be released only 4 months later. The delays keep piling up in the quest for perfection. There comes a point where you need to say "it's close enough to perfect, ship it". I'd rather draw that line now, when the difference is just a button or two, rather than a few months from now when it could be something serious, like performance or visibility.

 

[God Ginrai]

Actually, as many have mentioned, I would argue that a delay should be considered a concern. The next big thing is always right around the corner. Speculatively, the pandora is delayed such that 3 months from now, just as the Pandora is about to be released, TI announces a new chip, more powerful than current but fully backwards compatible, to be released 3 months later. Do you delay it again by 3 months for the new, better chip? In the thrust for perfection, you do. But by then there's a new, improved screen they can use, to be released only 4 months later. The delays keep piling up in the quest for perfection. There comes a point where you need to say "it's close enough to perfect, ship it". I'd rather draw that line now, when the difference is just a button or two, rather than a few months from now when it could be something serious, like performance or visibility.

Except in the case with the nubs, this would be downgrading. Even if we go with the 2mm nubs, we're still losing stick click and 0.5mm in throw. We aren't asking for better nubs than were planned, we're asking to KEEP nubs that are the same quality. Whereas in your case with the upgrades, that would be us asking for something more than was already in the specs.

-God Ginrai

 

[TaG]

We aren't asking for better nubs than were planned, we're asking to KEEP nubs that are the same quality.

Except they stopped making them, refused a large order as a sweetner and no one else appears to make them to that spec. So then you have to pay someone large to custom develop them from scratch which takes time and money and cannot be guaranteed to work as well or be as robust as you'd hoped = delay + cost.

 

[CandidStan]

So your saying these plans for 2mm click aren't available for a second overflow manufacturer to make?

I find that hard to believe.

 

[WizardStan]

I find that hard to believe.

And yet the Titanic sank, the Berlin wall fell, and the wind has blown strong enough to tear down bridges. The unbelievable has happened on more than one occasion

 

[God Ginrai]

We aren't asking for better nubs than were planned, we're asking to KEEP nubs that are the same quality.

Except they stopped making them, refused a large order as a sweetner and no one else appears to make them to that spec. So then you have to pay someone large to custom develop them from scratch which takes time and money and cannot be guaranteed to work as well or be as robust as you'd hoped = delay + cost.

I realize and I say that the delay shouldn't matter. Your point? I would be fine with the price of the Pandora going up a little to cover development costs for nubs that are at least as good as the ones we were originally promised.

-God Ginrai

 

[TaG]

I realize and I say that the delay shouldn't matter. Your point? I would be fine with the price of the Pandora going up a little to cover development costs for nubs that are at least as good as the ones we were originally promised.

Delay matters to a lot of people - as has been discussed exhaustively.
Cost doesn't matter to you but it does to others - are you going to stump up the 25k development costs or do you just expect Craig to open his wallet for you?

I shall duck out of this discussion now as you are obviously not interested in what others have said.

 

[God Ginrai]

I realize and I say that the delay shouldn't matter. Your point? I would be fine with the price of the Pandora going up a little to cover development costs for nubs that are at least as good as the ones we were originally promised.

Delay matters to a lot of people - as has been discussed exhaustively.
Cost doesn't matter to you but it does to others - are you going to stump up the 25k development costs or do you just expect Craig to open his wallet for you?

I shall duck out of this discussion now as you are obviously not interested in what others have said.

The only people who care about a delay are those who don't care about the nubs. I understand that the cost matters to a lot of people, and no, I don't expect Craig to open his wallet for me, I'd like an actual discussion about the costs and what ways we might be able to make it work, but you try to sidestep this issue over and over again by bringing up a delay that doesn't matter compared to having good controls.

You may say I'm not interested in what others have said, but when all I've seen is UMPC people harping about how they want their Pandora now and how we could fuck the analog nubs for all they care, I don't see why I should be interested.

Give me an objective argument as to why we can not in some way deal with the costs of the development of the nub, and then I'll listen.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kings]

I also wouldn't mind a delay or an increase in price, if my Pandora could drive my car or clean the house. But my guess is that someone will have to add that hardware after it comes out.

The best way too keep everyone happy would be MK1's with 2mm travel and no click. And then have MK2's with 2.5mm travel and center click. Because it's just a form of input, there is no need for crazy firmware changes.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

Give me an objective argument as to why we can not in some way deal with the costs of the development of the nub, and then I'll listen.

-God Ginrai

Here's one for you: IT'S $25,000 TO DEVELOP. It's not like you can just jack up the per-unit price to make up the deficit, you actually need the initial money up front to develop the nubs. You said earlier that I was an asshole, and you're probably right, but that's the pot calling the kettle black. The only problem is that right now, you're not only being an ass, but whining because you're not getting exactly what you want.

 

[God Ginrai]

Give me an objective argument as to why we can not in some way deal with the costs of the development of the nub, and then I'll listen.

-God Ginrai

Here's one for you: IT'S $25,000 TO DEVELOP. It's not like you can just jack up the per-unit price to make up the deficit, you actually need the initial money up front to develop the nubs. You said earlier that I was an asshole, and you're probably right, but that's the pot calling the kettle black. The only problem is that right now, you're not only being an ass, but whining because you're not getting exactly what you want.


I'm "whining" as you say because people are just trying to rush this thing to release, regardless of what happens. I understand it's $25,000 to develop, but there are ways to deal with that, such as users paying up front, etc.

How am I an asshole to argue against shafting ourselves?

QUOTE
The best way too keep everyone happy would be MK1's with 2mm travel and no click. And then have MK2's with 2.5mm travel and center click.


That should never happen unless Craigix and Co. are willing to replace the MK1s with new MK2s for those users who want one. Because although a lot of the people who want better nubs might be comfortable with a delay, Craigix and Co. would not release the MK1 and then release a better MK2 just a couple of months after, meaning that instead of a couple of months of delay, the delay for the people who would want better controls would be 6 months to a year at least. That is the type of delay that people might not wait for.

-God Ginrai

 

[gaterooze]

If I thought the nubs would be an improvement, I would completely agree with you, Ginrai. In fact, if the choice was 1mm nubs or a delay then I would be pleading for a delay. But I'm indifferent to whether there is or is not a stick-click. They're uncomfortable to use, I would much prefer to map nearby buttons to achieve the same goal.

 

[God Ginrai]

If I thought the nubs would be an improvement, I would completely agree with you, Ginrai. In fact, if the choice was 1mm nubs or a delay then I would be pleading for a delay. But I'm indifferent to whether there is or is not a stick-click. They're uncomfortable to use, I would much prefer to map nearby buttons to achieve the same goal.

You do realize that with this choice we are also losing 0.5mm of throw. (Not to mention the 2mms are damn PSP nubs)

-God Ginrai

 

[CandidStan]

I suppose I should chime in again. All the people who voted for 2mm are of course doing so because they want their Pandora sooner then later. I whole heartly agree with that view on the matter, however I foresee people getting their Pandora earlier, then after about a week, month or year after they will say, "man I wish I had stick click" Because I can almost guarantee there will be applications and games that would and should make use of it.

 

[gaterooze]

I don't agree, for a start I'm not intending to get a Pandora until the end of the year anyway, so a delay wouldn't impact me personally. Secondly, the GP2X had a stick-click and I barely ever used it, and wouldn't have noticed if it was gone (the F200 doesn't have one, does it? I think that shows you how useful it was).

 

[gruso]

I suppose I should chime in again.
Hmm... I suppose.

All the people who voted for 2mm are of course doing so because they want their Pandora sooner then later.
Is that the case? I thought low travel nubs with click were readily available at the time all this came up - and those voting for more travel were also voting to wait.

Anyway, no matter. It's on track now. For the record, I dislike the click. It messes with my mojo.

 

[God Ginrai]

I don't agree, for a start I'm not intending to get a Pandora until the end of the year anyway, so a delay wouldn't impact me personally. Secondly, the GP2X had a stick-click and I barely ever used it, and wouldn't have noticed if it was gone (the F200 doesn't have one, does it? I think that shows you how useful it was).

The reason you barely used stick click on the 2X is not because of it is not useful, it's because the GP2X had a flaw in which if you used the stick click too much, your stick would fall in. That's why most devs didn't code the stick click to be used. (Also, I think that assigning actions to the stick click required more code than normal buttons) I remember because I was always wary of using my stick click on the 2X because of all the horror stories about the stick pushing too far in.

The reason stick click wasn't included in the GP2X F200 was because they realized how BADLY designed their D-Stick was and decided to just replace the damn thing.

If you could use stick click on a system where users aren't scared of breaking their stick due to shoddy hardware development, then you would have a very different idea on the usefulness of stick click.

I suppose I should chime in again.
Hmm... I suppose.

All the people who voted for 2mm are of course doing so because they want their Pandora sooner then later.
Is that the case? I thought low travel nubs with click were readily available at the time all this came up - and those voting for more travel were also voting to wait.

Anyway, no matter. It's on track now. For the record, I dislike the click. It messes with my mojo.

This topic was made after the idea of 2mm nubs now was proposed. There was another topic which was locked once this one was made, that's where it took into account the delay.

-God Ginrai

 

[PolloLoco]

At the risk of getting God Ginrai ranting again, I believe MWeston clarified the issue in the thread "New Blog Entry". It should really end this discussion.

He stated that when looking for nubs with center click options, nobody was able to commit to having acceptable nubs for an August production date. He says there are two options they're mulling over, but they will NOT have center click.

MWeston also stated that there were two companies that thought they could produce the nubs wanted given 5-6 months. But he wasn't sure if that was pure salestalk - and therefore unreliable. Earlier on in this thread, God Ginrai said that a Mark 2 later implementing the click shouldn't be considered because of an unacceptable delay of 6 months to a year. Well, it appears that if center click were insisted on, then everyone would see that delay for the Mark 1's.

I would hope that now everyone could agree that a 6 month delay on release is unacceptable.

 

[waffles]

the question then is what could be the difference between the two new no click nubs, right?
or am i missing something?