Carmack, Iphone, Pandora And Midori

[Exophase]

No, he's not.

Hey guys in this thread chad78 argues with Exophase, should be fun

• CPU 1 67 Mhz, CPU 2 33 Mhz for the DS
• CPU 1 333 Mhz, GPU 166 Mhz for the PSP

• You forgot the second 333MHz CPU in PSP. Although games can't access this directly it still does serve an actual purpose in providing many common media functions.
  
  

  [*]CPU 1 620 Mhz for the iPhone.

Combined, that's 400 Mhz on CPU 1 and 199 on CPU 2 for the DSPSP - and 620 for the iPhone, which, (of course) is higher than both CPUs combined from both devices. The iPhone is underclocked to 412 Mhz - which still beats the DSPSP's highest clocked CPU.

How does it matter what it allegedly can be clocked to if in practice it's impossible to use it over 412MHz? Anyway if we play your game of "add and compare the MHz" then you get way more than 412MHz out of the other handhelds...

Pandora's CPU, depending on who you read, is either 500 Mhz, 600 Mhz, or 900 Mhz.

It's 900MHz because every Pandora can be switched to that via software. Done.

The iPhone's CPU is 620 Mhz, which is higher than 2 of the numbers for the Pandora.

It's not 620MHz because no iPhone can be switched to that via software. Done.

That people even think it can be is just speculation.

It is underclocked to 412 Mhz. And while that number is lower than all numbers quoted for the Pandora, and the highest Pandora number is more than twice the iPhone's - the average of the Pandora's ratings is not twice as high. (The average is 667 Mhz.)

I guess you don't understand that Pandora's Cortex-A8 CPU can do more instructions per cycle than the ARM11 in iPhone. And has L2 cache. iPhone is probably majorly limited by its memory subsystem.

Yes, the MacBook Air is a stupid gimmick. But this shit about Apple's being overpriced and underpowered is a relic of the PPC years. It's no longer true.

It's certainly still true for their iPods and iPhones, and don't even tell me that $200 iPhone negates this with its hefty contract prices.

A similarly spec'ed Dell or HP is not going to be much (if *ANY*) cheaper than a MacBook or iMac.

The Mac Mini is overpriced and underpowered, but just because it hasn't been updated in over a year.

You already had this argument with someone else in another thread and I'm not going to dig it up. Suffice it to say that Apple doesn't offer pricing that's all that competitive with Dell (who has some of the cheapest laptops for one of the major OEMs)

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

Look, I'm not saying the iPhone is a better game system than the PSP or the DS - it's not. It's not built for games. It has no controls. But there is a reason the man - who, I'm pretty sure knows a hell of a lot more about games, gaming, and game systems than I ever will - said what he said. iPhone + iControlPad + JailBreaking= potential kick-ass system.

I'm apprehensive about iPhone/Touch gaming, even with the iControlpad. I'm already running a jailbroken Touch with a myriad of apps, and while it's an excellent device, firmware updates are a HUGE problem with the device. Every month or two, when a new one comes out, you've gotta drop what you're doing and upgrade. In the process, you lose all your apps, themes, etc. that you've spent ages screwing around with in FTP clients setting permissions to get them to work. So, you go into Installer.app to get 'em all back, and lo and behold, virtually none of the games, emulators, and apps you used to love on your old firmware haven't even been ported over to the new one yet! By the time everything's ported and compatible, Apple's already released a new firmware and you've gotta go through the whole damn process again. Stay at the same firmware the whole time? Sure, you could, but dev support for older firmwares gets dropped like Lindsay Lohan's acting career the second a new firmware is made available.

If it weren't for that and my desire for true gaming controls, I wouldn't even be looking at Pandora. Unfortunately, it is that big a problem because I'm here, aren't I?

 

[Game_over]

Okay lets note some stuff.

You guys should check out this book called "Smartbomb" he's in it and pretty much describes him accurately, especially after meeting him in person.

He loves programming, he reminds me of Todd Sweeney in that respect.

I can almost guarantee If you put a device and it's spec in front of him he'll create a "Test" for it, and that "Test" will be something you would never think of being possible on the machine. He loves power but he gets a rush from squeezing it out of under powered machine. At least that's how he was.

 

[CyruzDraxs]

Okay lets note some stuff.

You guys should check out this book called "Smartbomb" he's in it and pretty much describes him accurately, especially after meeting him in person.

He loves programming, he reminds me of Todd Sweeney in that respect.

I can almost guarantee If you put a device and it's spec in front of him he'll create a "Test" for it, and that "Test" will be something you would never think of being possible on the machine. He loves power but he gets a rush from squeezing it out of under powered machine. At least that's how he was.

He is like that, but he's also a very busy man these days--a very busy man that likes his money. Free work does not get him money, so he probably wouldn't do anything unless he suddenly had an abundance of free time.

 

[Tinnus]

iPhone is probably majorly limited by its memory subsystem.

And the OS. IIRC, according to zodttd about 20-40% of the CPU time is spent by the OS doing... whatever all the time and there's no way to disable it. And that's why stuff as simple as SNES emulation has problems running with 400MHz...

 

[Exophase]

iPhone is probably majorly limited by its memory subsystem.

And the OS. IIRC, according to zodttd about 20-40% of the CPU time is spent by the OS doing... whatever all the time and there's no way to disable it. And that's why stuff as simple as SNES emulation has problems running with 400MHz...

The OS doesn't take up a bunch of cycles constantly in the background, it's more like doing things like updating the framebuffer from a soft surface take a ton of time. This probably isn't nearly as much of an issue for typical 3D games, but it makes it really bad for emulators.

 

[plopperz]

I've heard various reports that Carmack believes that iPhone is more powerful than PSP and DS put together. Unfortunately, I could not find any of them sourcing an actual quote of him saying this, so I find it pretty suspect (maybe someone can point me in this direction).

I know it's a bit late, but here's where you saw that.

 

[chad78]

How does it matter what it allegedly can be clocked to if in practice it's impossible to use it over 412MHz? Anyway if we play your game of "add and compare the MHz" then you get way more than 412MHz out of the other handhelds...
Be consistent in your application of limitations. If the iPhone is 412 Mhz and not 620 Mhz because software limits it so, then the PSP is only one CPU of 333 Mhz, because that's all games can use. And the original quote was about a more powerful *game system* not a more powerful multimedia system, (which, of course, the iPhone is a better media player than the DS and the PSP combined anyway.) So, when talking about games, you've got 1 CPU on the PSP of 333 Mhz, (most run at 222 Mhz, btw, since the PSP was first sold that way - but we'll go with the highest number) - and then you've got the 2 CPUs on the DS, which combined only add up to 100 Mhz, so add that to the 333 on the PSP, and you've got 433 Mhz - which, granted, is more than the DSPSP, but not by much. And the point was not that it was Literally Exactly twice as powerful or more than both combined, but basically, it is twice as powerful. When talking about a game system. And, again, I must point out, most PSP games run at 222 Mhz on 1 CPU, and none run at 333 Mhz on 1 CPUs. (And, I'm pretty sure the DS only uses one CPU at a time, too - one CPU is for DS games, the other for GBA games - so that would drag the combined number down below the iPhone's also.)QUOTE
It's 900MHz because every Pandora can be switched to that via software. Done.
That's fine. My main point was about the iPhone being twice as powerful a game system as the DS and the PSP combined. The Pandora is much more powerful than any and all of them. No question there.QUOTE
It's certainly still true for their iPods and iPhones, and don't even tell me that $200 iPhone negates this with its hefty contract prices.
I don't like iPods.QUOTE
You already had this argument with someone else in another thread and I'm not going to dig it up. Suffice it to say that Apple doesn't offer pricing that's all that competitive with Dell (who has some of the cheapest laptops for one of the major OEMs)
If you want cheap crap, you are free to buy cheap crap. I prefer a solid machine that can natively run any OS I want - and that's a MacBook.

 

[Exophase]

Be consistent in your application of limitations. If the iPhone is 412 Mhz and not 620 Mhz because software limits it so, then the PSP is only one CPU of 333 Mhz, because that's all games can use.

I don't think you understood my post. How stupid do you think Sony is, that they would put in an entire CPU that is only capable of sitting there and doing nothing? You can't run your own code on it, but the kernel does have libraries sitting on it which games can and do use, so ignoring it is entirely unfair.

And the original quote was about a more powerful *game system* not a more powerful multimedia system, (which, of course, the iPhone is a better media player than the DS and the PSP combined anyway.) So, when talking about games, you've got 1 CPU on the PSP of 333 Mhz, (most run at 222 Mhz, btw, since the PSP was first sold that way - but we'll go with the highest number)

Whatever previous games ran at or current games choose to run at it is completely irrelevant, and like I already said, games do put the second CPU to work.

- and then you've got the 2 CPUs on the DS, which combined only add up to 100 Mhz, so add that to the 333 on the PSP, and you've got 433 Mhz - which, granted, is more than the DSPSP, but not by much.

Of course, deriving overall platform power by adding CPU MHz still makes you look like an idiot, but at least you're no longer failing at even that...

And the point was not that it was Literally Exactly twice as powerful or more than both combined, but basically, it is twice as powerful. When talking about a game system. And, again, I must point out, most PSP games run at 222 Mhz on 1 CPU, and none run at 333 Mhz on 1 CPUs.

What are you talking about now? Was that a typo? Did you mean 2?

(And, I'm pretty sure the DS only uses one CPU at a time, too - one CPU is for DS games, the other for GBA games - so that would drag the combined number down below the iPhone's also.)

That's more nonsense, DS games use both CPUs. Why else would the ARM7 be clocked at 2x what it was on the GBA? Like the PSP, you can only run Nintendo code on it, but that doesn't mean that games don't make good use of it. In fact, you must use it to playback audio entirely.

That's fine. My main point was about the iPhone being twice as powerful a game system as the DS and the PSP combined.

Holy crap man, now it went from as powerful as the DS and PSP combined, which I find quite debatable (but I need more specs on VGP Lite performance), to TWICE as powerful? What the hell are you smoking?

The Pandora is much more powerful than any and all of them. No question there.

That's not the picture you were painting in your last post.

I don't like iPods.

They're an Apple product, are they not, and I believe you were telling the guy that Apple doesn't overcharge for underpowered hardware...

If you want cheap crap, you are free to buy cheap crap. I prefer a solid machine that can natively run any OS I want - and that's a MacBook.

Dells laptops aren't cheap crap. Or rather, just because they're cheap doesn't mean that they're poor on average. Maybe you believe that more expensive means better quality, in which case I'd say you've fallen right into Apple's trap.

Truly MacOS X is the only thing that sells Apple's computers anymore, and as far as I'm concerned it's less of a distinguished OS and more of the same kind of thing that Apple plays everywhere - crap that's trying to pander to whatever superficial styles they find marketable. Not to say it's bad or anything, I just don't see what's especially superior about it. But then again, I've never been that fussed about OSes to begin with.

Not that you can't run OS X on a non-Apple computer, they just don't want you doing so.

 

[icurafu]

Less people have problems with Dell laptops then they do with Apples form my experience.

My company has rolled out 1000s of dell laptops, granted mostly D6xx, and when we get one back, it is typically coffee under the keys.

About a dozen friends of mine are apple enlistees, and all of them have had problems now or before. Some as small and silly as mooing fans, but a good deal of them had the expanding battery problem.

You can also install MacOS on dell laptops. PCs are free to install whatever you want on them. It is Apple themselves who don't want MacOS to be spread onto every other type of laptop.

This is the extend of the great Apple delusion, and you're apart of it.

Also, back on topic. Comparing iPhone gaming performance to PSP +(DS just for humour) and yes, via CPU you ge close, but there is no way you can compare the GPU, other than capability. iPhone is great for gaming and Carmack is someone who will be releasing games for it. Therefore probably by the guidance of the PR team, he was asked to make half truths about something hardly anyone but Sony could contradict him on.

 

[grahf]

Just for the record, I picked up the cheapest bottom of the line Dell Inspiron 1501 laptop a year ago when I was moving. For $500, I expected it to be a disposable piece of shit. Now, the battery does suck (only 29watt), but I honestly was really impressed with the quality.Im no expert, but I know my hardware. After using it for a year, and taking a look "under the hood", I was amazed that they could sell this thing for $500. Maybe i'll never buy a Dell again, but this was a good deal.

Yes it's big. Yes it's heavy. but Yes, you are getting a great deal for the price.

 

[chad78]

You know what, Exophase, I don't care what you think - or anyone else for that matter. The man said what he said. He's a well respected member of both the gaming community and the open source community. What he said makes sense. And selling out to one, unproven gaming platform at the expense of two well-known, widely used, popular, platforms backed by the 2 biggest names in gaming would be a pretty stupid and shortsighted move - if that is what he did. But as the full quote (in this thread) points out - it wasn't a complete compliment. So selling out for a quick PR boost to iPhone makes even less sense. If he didn't have a reason to say what he said, he wouldn't have said it - end of story.

 

[Exophase]

I think that when you get down to it what the man said needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It was said to make a point, that the iPhone's power is basically irrelevant in dictating its success. What he said was an off the cuff remark and it should be taken as such. By "more powerful" I'm sure he could have meant a number of things, but for games raw power for pushing triangles is usually at the forefront and PSP has that won. If you demanded a thorough analysis from him I think he would, at the very least, be hard pressed to show the iPhone as a clear winner.

What's pathetic is how much news sites (especially Apple fan sites) have latched on to this comment to bolster the iPhone's viability as a gaming platform, while completely ignoring the context. The source I first saw, Apple Insider, cited IGN, which only paraphrased that Carmack said that iPhone is more powerful than PSP and DS combined.

The man is probably kicking himself right now.

 

[waffles]

screw all the dell hate.
i have had a inspiron 8600 that i have abused to hell, and its still working fine.
the iphone will not take off as a gaming platform ever. in fact, im calling that it will be less successful than the n-gage in the realm of commercial, high budget, 40+ dollar games.

 

[PoisonedV]

Chad, Carmack is a washed up fool.

Edited to remove inflammatory comments, By Trooper

 

[mechanizeddeath]

Just for the record, I picked up the cheapest bottom of the line Dell Inspiron 1501 laptop a year ago when I was moving. For $500, I expected it to be a disposable piece of shit. Now, the battery does suck (only 29watt), but I honestly was really impressed with the quality.Im no expert, but I know my hardware. After using it for a year, and taking a look "under the hood", I was amazed that they could sell this thing for $500. Maybe i'll never buy a Dell again, but this was a good deal.

Yes it's big. Yes it's heavy. but Yes, you are getting a great deal for the price.

Same here, and I've been very happy. You probably got the same kind of deal I did, when they slashed the prices on those units just before releasing the Vostro line last August. Like you, my expectations were very low, but a year later I've continued to be impressed. I think a lot of it has to do with putting the money where it counts, because low cost doesn't have to equal low quality. This is something I believe we'll all see in the Pandora, an effort to squeeze every bit of value from the hardware.

 

[Lazy8s]

Better image qualities like the higher resolution, lower penalty AA, unconditional 32-bit color blending, and unconditional high accuracy floating point 3D depth could be a reason Carmack finds the iPhone more capable. Perhaps, it's the more advanced graphics features like the DOT3 per-pixel lighting.

 

[adsharma23]

you want to hear about apples quality?
i bought my macbook pro a few months ago scritly because i needed a secure operating system that is built for media editing
i also thought that i would be getting quality
wow was i wrong
the airport (i don't know why the hell they call it that it's an broadcom card) dies every 20 minutes
when running final cut studio the mac can get up to 220 F
meaning it will burn you (and i'm running the fans forced on high)
and now the graphics card is dying which granted is not apples fault seeing as all 8600m nvidia cards failed but i don't see any signs of admittance to their being a problem on apples part like hp and dell did
oh and i have an ipod touch and seriously their is hardly any potential for gaming for it
people get so hyped up when they hear it has an acceloremeter like the wiimote
hey guess what when you move your iphone the screen moves too meaning you lose your viewing angle
seriously take it from a first time apple user i'm not buying another apple for a long time
i will either get a dell (with ubuntu pre loaded) or build my own pc and put ubuntu on it

 

[PoisonedV]

Chad, Carmack is a washed up fool.

Edited to remove inflammatory comments, By Trooper

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH :rolleyes:

 

[Chilly Willy]

I don't think you understood my post. How stupid do you think Sony is, that they would put in an entire CPU that is only capable of sitting there and doing nothing? You can't run your own code on it, but the kernel does have libraries sitting on it which games can and do use, so ignoring it is entirely unfair.

Actually, you can use that second CPU in homebrew. If you remember, I wrote a prx for 3.xx homebrew that allows you to run code on the MediaEngine CPU. It was used in the original 3.xx conversion of SNES9xTYL ME++ (the MediaEngine version of SNES9x).

As to the touch screen on the iPhone, that's not a good game input as your finger is blocking the display. There's a reason Nintendo made the lower screen have touch sensing and not the upper one. Also, motion sensing is not good for most games either as it's not accurate enough and too prone to problems (accidentally tilting the device is far more likely than accidentally pressing a button).

Actually, the MAIN advantage the iPhone has is memory, having 128MB compared to only 64MB on the PSP Slim (and the less said about memory on the DS, the better).