Rage On The Iphone

[fusion_power]

I second that! Carmack should have a Pandora! Please send it to him immediately!

Yupp, I also suggest this. Especialy since John complains about the lack of tracile feedback when controlling the games with only a Touchscreen. John would LOVE the Pandora Nubs!

 

[Emnasut]

How about someone sets up a donation account on paypal and as soon as enough people have contributed (I would) we send a Pandora to him?

 

[Spirit]

You guys did not see the talk, huh? He would be super annoyed by the linux hackery on the Pandora.

 

[TrashyMG]

Windows 2000! I'm still using the same CD key I got 10 years ago to do installs even though that CD has long since been destroyed.

The scary part is that I still know my windows 98 key by heart. Had to install that bloody OS so many times.

I still remember my Half-life key by heart.

Not sure if this still works.

But download steam, put key in, ????, profits.

Unfortunately not, some on else cashed in on it. Between in 1998 and 1999 I shared my CD key with a ton of people at a college LAN parties. Oh well I got it again with orange box though..

 

[Letalis Sonus]

The classic DRM-less CD-Key mechanism is totally independent from any install media or internet connection and the like. It is a simple, sometimes slightly obfuscated (like, replaced letters etc) mostly hexadecimal number that simply has to fit into a certain mathematical scheme. There is nothing on the CD that is used to check it. To come back to the Linux games: UT2004, Doom 3, and Neverwinter Nights (whose Linux version is fully downloadable without needing any extra data or having to prove that you own it) e.g. all just want to have a fitting Key stored in some text file, they never ask for any CD.
(I created a keygen for some older game myself, for personal usage only, of course...)

Rage is already going to get a Linux client (and with id it will surely not be such a disaster like with UT3), and with that iPhone client there is already an OpenGL ES port of the engine and lots of ARM-compatible code. Combining both shouldn't be a big issue at all.
And AFAIK id was never really that focused on extra hard copy protections like e.g. EA anyway, as we all know they even published lots of GPL'd code, which is surprising as their engines are their most profitable products.

 

[Tempel]

anyway, as we all know they even published lots of GPL'd code, which is surprising as their engines are their most profitable products.

Not anymore I hope they'll keep their habit of opening it eventually, but this doesn't bode well.

 

[Mr B]

Uh, funny. If any key worked, you didn't need a keygen.
Keygens generate a key that match a hash. The hash is on the disc. Any key that matches the hash, works. Until a patch with a blacklist is added, but at that point you patch the blacklist, or ignore it altogether with a cracked exe.

Can you name one that does that? Because every game I've played that used a key really could accept any key.

What you describe is exactly why keygens were created.

Read your own text again. Explain why a keygen is needed if any key works. If any key works, then there are no invalid, only blacklisted keys. You just press 111-111-1112, or what ever random number that fits the current slots, and change the last digit until you hit one that isn't blacklisted. Every software i've ever came across, ever, used a hash table to verify if keys are, or aren't valid. And, yes, i know thats why keygens are used. But it seams you think the first keygen for software & games was created to provide pirate copies with usable keys. If thats what you think, thats of course completely wrong. The first keygen was used to make the keys that went out with the game / software to start with. Someone decided on a mathematical model, and created a generator that made keys following that model. They didn't include every key with the installer, so that it could verify if the key was ok, but rather gave the software the same model, and said "if key fits, it's good". The keygen used to provide keys other then the one manufacturer gave you (if any) are reverse engineered. You grabbed a number of keys, and start looking for patterns. A large sample base meat it was faster, and you were going to get it right at less attempts. Today, patterns are so complex it seams more usual that people track down the hash, and do what it takes to generates keys that match.

At first, when people traded CDs, they'd pass around the CD key as well. Then companies started blacklisting certain keys, as you say. Enter the keygen which created a new and different key every time. Can't blacklist them all.

Enter keys at random, and see how well that works for you.

Windows 2000! I'm still using the same CD key I got 10 years ago to do installs even though that CD has long since been destroyed. Same with WinXP, now that I think of it.

Your point is? There are a number of versions with the different Microsoft OS installs on them. Usually, but not always they have a different hash for different regions, and service pack, versions. Thats the whole point. They can print 5 million CD's, and 5 millions CD keys, and every key will work for every CD, but not for any of the other flavors, unless intended to. (In which case they simply include the hash on the "other" flawor they want the keys to be valid for. In reality they can add as many different hash values as they like, and create a hash table. This lets some users with a first version XP CD & key install of a Service Pack 3 install media, intended for there region. This is actually an extra effort, al tho a very small one, that Microsoft made, to make sure that 1 users with damaged install media can get a hold of a valid media for there old keys, and 2 lets administrators managing multiple system buy 1 updated install media to use for all the systems.) Like Windows XP home keys doesn't work for pro installs. By now it's even worse. Windows 7 install media has all the stuff for all the different flavors. Different keys give different hash, and based on what hash turns out valid, your allowed to install the version you bought, and only that version.

B!

 

[WizardStan]

Read your own text again. Explain why a keygen is needed if any key works. If any key works, then there are no invalid, only blacklisted keys. You just press 111-111-1112, or what ever random number that fits the current slots, and change the last digit until you hit one that isn't blacklisted.

When we say "any key" we mean "any valid key". Keygen creates a key based on whatever calculation the game company used. This key can be used on ANY CD. It is not, as you say, in any way locked to the specific CD, unless you can provide a specific example. If you can, I would suggest it is the exception, rather than the rule.

 

[lulzfish]

Read your own text again. Explain why a keygen is needed if any key works. If any key works, then there are no invalid, only blacklisted keys. You just press 111-111-1112, or what ever random number that fits the current slots, and change the last digit until you hit one that isn't blacklisted.

When we say "any key" we mean "any valid key". Keygen creates a key based on whatever calculation the game company used. This key can be used on ANY CD. It is not, as you say, in any way locked to the specific CD, unless you can provide a specific example. If you can, I would suggest it is the exception, rather than the rule.

Yeah, that's what I meant.
There might be a billion billion possible keys, but it will accept any of a billion valid keys, even if it your CD only shipped with one.

 

[SomeGuy99]

You would have more luck with John Romero. His company did a lot of handheld stuff for niche platforms (Pocket PC, Ngage). According to Wikipedia he left that job though.

Mobile Daikatana anyone?

Edit:

That demo had no evidence of real time lighting or pixel shaders. It looks like a very simple engine. Check out the shadows on the characters...

 

[Mr B]

Read your own text again. Explain why a keygen is needed if any key works. If any key works, then there are no invalid, only blacklisted keys. You just press 111-111-1112, or what ever random number that fits the current slots, and change the last digit until you hit one that isn't blacklisted.

When we say "any key" we mean "any valid key". Keygen creates a key based on whatever calculation the game company used. This key can be used on ANY CD. It is not, as you say, in any way locked to the specific CD, unless you can provide a specific example. If you can, I would suggest it is the exception, rather than the rule.

Somewhere there has obviously been a misunderstanding. Lets try this again. Read the following:
"There are a number of versions with the different Microsoft OS installs on them. Usually, but not always they have a different hash for different regions, and service pack, versions. Thats the whole point. They can print 5 million CD's, and 5 millions CD keys, and every key will work for every CD, but not for any of the other flavors, unless intended to."

I never said that keys for the same manufacturing process wasn't cross compatible with any of the other discs from the same printing. Burned discs were all different, pressed discs are the same disc. Regardless of if they printed 5 million of it or just one. (Well, you never press 1, but to show the point) They are all inverted images of the master. However, when you go to copy it, you get a new id number on the disc, as it's generated by the burner on burn, and that isn't an identical disc, and suddenly is easy to tell apart from the 'one' that works. Here is where technology's improvement took a dump on developers, and provided people who want to copy discs with burners that were capable of burning raw data, headers and all, enabling cloned copies. These aren't different, and circumvents the protection.
Heck, i even said that it's a small task to make the key work for any number of different disc's even if they aren't the least bit alike.
"In which case they simply include the hash on the "other" flawor they want the keys to be valid for. In reality they can add as many different hash values as they like, and create a hash table."

At this point there isn't any way to make a SD card behave in the same way. In theory it should be doable, by the same means as some USB connected mediaplayers do it. A small CPU does the interaction between the actual memory, and the host accessing it. This is a tech used for USB dongles by the way. And, so far it's showed to be beatable by adapting drivers, or software that emulates the dongle. However, making a "SD" memory that acts this way isn't without it's difficulties, since it wouldn't actually be a SD card. Anything licensed for a SD card wouldn't be warranted to actually work as intended with a device of that sort. (It would instead be up to the developer of such a product to uphold such promises.) It also has it's physical limitations. Not being totally up to date with SD cards, MWeston probably would know, but i think your limited by the current you could draw, as well as 3.3v, and size constraints. This is all slightly of the point tho.
B!

 

[WizardStan]

I never said that keys for the same manufacturing process wasn't cross compatible with any of the other discs from the same printing.

Yes you did.

CD, and DVD's, are media that you can, during manufacture, add artifacts to, so that they are unique.

You made that statement which you seemed to use to tie together your entire "CD key is a hardware based protection". lulzfish and I both countered with "no it's not hardware, it's entirely software based." If the CD key doesn't work on future CDs it is because of changes to the software, not the hardware.

 

[Mr B]

I never said that keys for the same manufacturing process wasn't cross compatible with any of the other discs from the same printing.

Yes you did.

CD, and DVD's, are media that you can, during manufacture, add artifacts to, so that they are unique.

You made that statement which you seemed to use to tie together your entire "CD key is a hardware based protection". lulzfish and I both countered with "no it's not hardware, it's entirely software based." If the CD key doesn't work on future CDs it is because of changes to the software, not the hardware.

Right. Optic media with intentional artifacts are a later invention, and are used by copy protection software, as hardware key's to verify the disc. It has little, to nothing to do with the key. OK, I'll give you as much. On it's own a key isn't hardware dependent. The CD key in conjunction with media detection is. Which is why thats the way it's used.

Do you mind telling me something else tho? How did we go from trying to explain why SD memories are inherently impossible to use to physically single out copies, to scrutinizing copyprotection tools? I don't see how nitpicking over words change the facts. The Panda is made to be a open, and modifiable unit. It's very design counteracts any attempt to make software that cant be traded about, and defeats copy protection. (This doesn't mean you cant still get paid for software, but your simply in the hands of the user.)

And, now that i think about it. On the topic of Doom 3. You know it only is kidding when it asks you for your key? As far as i know, the installer you got from id's online archive let you press cancel, and play without key. It's been a while tho, so they might have changed that again, try it?

Just for reference. I'll add the text you cut the quote from.

Uh, funny. If any key worked, you didn't need a keygen.
Keygens generate a key that match a hash. The hash is on the disc. Any key that matches the hash, works. Until a patch with a blacklist is added, but at that point you patch the blacklist, or ignore it altogether with a cracked exe.
CD, and DVD's, are media that you can, during manufacture, add artifacts to, so that they are unique. This makes them identifiable in a way simply not possible for SD memories. And on this is the entire copy protection based. (Not that it worked out that well for the manufacturers, with the right tools most copy protections can be reproduced for CD's, so called CD clones. It's however a long step away from no protection at all.)

As i stated, the key is only one part of a protection system. I don't think i'm wrong by stating that this makes the key a part of a hardware based protection system, but you may have it your way, can we please get back to the topic?
B!

 

[Evil Star]

Mobile Daikatana anyone?

:lol:

 

[second exodous]

Out of all the big time game makers/programmers I would send John D. Carmack one. He might port things he might not. Heck, he might open the package or he might not. It is a gamble but I think it is worth the risk.

You need to remember that he has never supported anything 'indie' in the past. I remember in one interview he was asked about Linux, Apple(when it was dying), or some other small platform and he said he just codes, his code is made to run on anything but other people in the company port it. He said something like he doesn't worry about those kinds of things. Then the iPhone came out so that might have changed, if he likes the Pandora he'll probably want to do something on it.

 

[DaveC]

Out of all the big time game makers/programmers I would send John D. Carmack one. He might port things he might not. Heck, he might open the package or he might not. It is a gamble but I think it is worth the risk.

You need to remember that he has never supported anything 'indie' in the past. I remember in one interview he was asked about Linux, Apple(when it was dying), or some other small platform and he said he just codes, his code is made to run on anything but other people in the company port it. He said something like he doesn't worry about those kinds of things. Then the iPhone came out so that might have changed, if he likes the Pandora he'll probably want to do something on it.

It would be a waste of a Pandora. He wouldn't touch it until there are ten million or so out there and it was locked down with all sorts of DRM. Since that isn't going to happen, forget it. It is all about money now days. Nice to dream but it isn't realistic.

 

[monkeyo2]

I would have thought the publicity that could be generated by saying "We've sent one to John Carmack" would be worth the price of a Pandora, even if he does never look at it. A few photos of the box being sent off would probably be newsworthy on a number of blogs.

Ideally a team dressed as pirates would ambush him, and then present him with his prize. A clip of that on Youtube would get instant fame! (briefly amongst geeks......)

 

[SomeGuy99]

Has anyone considered that perhaps these big name people could actually become investors in the Pandora.

So they release something, then invest in spreading the platform and increasing the manufacturing rate etc. Cash injection.

Basically... 'adopt a Pandora'

 

[quadomatic]

Why does this topic have so many replies???

The Pandora has an install base of ~1000 now. Why the hell would id Software release a title for it?

 

[Ze_ro]

That demo had no evidence of real time lighting or pixel shaders. It looks like a very simple engine. Check out the shadows on the characters...

You guys realize that this is NOT Rage, right? I mean, the article says Rage and all, but this is going to end up being something totally different... like what they "ported" Doom 3 to iPhone, and ended up with Doom Resurrection. You'll be lucky if this even has the same storyline as Rage.

Of course, that doesn't mean it will be a bad game... at the very least, we can hope that they will eventually release the source code and someone can port it... of course, that would be about 8 years from now.

--Zero