Caanoo - A Fail Console?

[crow_riot]

i agree with torpor.

i had my problems with PND prior to having it used. it's amazing how easy it is! i think you need to actually have used it once before you know what the caanoo/wiz is missing.
i don't have a problem connecting my wiz with the pc and copying/editing files and folders and whatnot. BUT, if it was avoidable, i would be more than grateful.

the PND-format forces the developer to make something standard. on the caanoo/wiz, there's no such standard, that's the problem IMO.
take a look at the files uploaded to the archive, one comes with an .ini file, another one doesn't, one just has all files directly inside the zip, another one has everything packed together in a nice folder structure. almost every zip i've downloaded has something different. that makes it cumbersome.

 

[CKeichel]

i agree with torpor.

i had my problems with PND prior to having it used. it's amazing how easy it is! i think you need to actually have used it once before you know what the caanoo/wiz is missing.
i don't have a problem connecting my wiz with the pc and copying/editing files and folders and whatnot. BUT, if it was avoidable, i would be more than grateful.

the PND-format forces the developer to make something standard. on the caanoo/wiz, there's no such standard, that's the problem IMO.
take a look at the files uploaded to the archive, one comes with an .ini file, another one doesn't, one just has all files directly inside the zip, another one has everything packed together in a nice folder structure. almost every zip i've downloaded has something different. that makes it cumbersome.

@ Topor

First, most people don't want to play homebrew roms on their emulators, that can be downloaded via the net, they want to play the old roms, that can't be downloaded legally. And second, you are talking about a web based installation service, that runs on the Caanoo, this program should download the files from where? A special archive? Who should run this archive, this is a lot of work? Do you want to manage this thing? I use the homebrew browser on the Wii, it's great, but most files I install, I download manually, cause it's only updated now and then and I usually stumble across a program days, weeks, before it appears in the Homebrew Browser.

And last but not least, you keep ignoring this fact for days now, most people don't have their Caanoo connected to the Internet. The Caanoo is not a console, that sells in millions and the small fraction of people who use a WiFi stick on their Caanoo just isn't big enough to justify this effort, at least in the eyes of a developer, I think.

@crow_riot

99.9% zips for the Caanoo include a ini file and a folder with the program. Everything else is a big exception. An installer like you suggest would mean to copy a file to the Caanoo and run it from an installer, this would mean, you have to install a program (the installer) and you have to copy the file to the card. You have to explain to me, why it is easier to copy a PND file to a card and launch an installer to install the file, instead of copying the contents of a ZIP to your card. It's just more work, and it's not easier.

 

[SolarLune]

I do think that there's room for growth in terms of getting this auto-installer thing going, but it's only really useful when GPH puts Wi-Fi built-in to the system. Perhaps if someone made this, then more people would get a Wi-Fi stick, but if the next Caanoo (which should be backwards compatible), has built-in Wi-Fi, then this'll make sense, along with an app store.

 

[Dunny]

@ Topor

First, most people don't want to play homebrew roms on their emulators, that can be downloaded via the net, they want to play the old roms, that can't be downloaded legally. And second, you are talking about a web based installation service, that runs on the Caanoo, this program should download the files from where? A special archive? Who should run this archive, this is a lot of work? Do you want to manage this thing? I use the homebrew browser on the Wii, it's great, but most files I install, I download manually, cause it's only updated now and then and I usually stumble across a program days, weeks, before it appears in the Homebrew Browser.

You're missing the point. GPH dropped the ball by not including WiFi (by default in the Caanoo, or at all in the Wiz) but had they done that and included the PND system (or something similar), then you could do what we do now on the Pandora:

1. Open Web Browser
2. Browse to the Open Handhelds archive (the one that has caanoo/wiz stuff on it)
3. Download the PND file

That's it. Assuming you have set up your download location properly, the new application will appear in the menu. No unzipping, no switching of SD cards and copying files to it and then switching back... Just those three steps and you're away. It really is that easy.

And last but not least, you keep ignoring this fact for days now, most people don't have their Caanoo connected to the Internet. The Caanoo is not a console, that sells in millions and the small fraction of people who use a WiFi stick on their Caanoo just isn't big enough to justify this effort, at least in the eyes of a developer, I think.

The Pandora doesn't sell millions either, but the devs in their wisdom included WiFi by default rather than as an add-on that may or may not be coming for the Wiz and Caanoo. That and the fact that they simply couldn't be bothered with a decent package system like PND (which was designed by and built by the community, not OPT) is just another of GPH's virtual single-finger gestures at the community.

@crow_riot

99.9% zips for the Caanoo include a ini file and a folder with the program. Everything else is a big exception. An installer like you suggest would mean to copy a file to the Caanoo and run it from an installer, this would mean, you have to install a program (the installer) and you have to copy the file to the card. You have to explain to me, why it is easier to copy a PND file to a card and launch an installer to install the file, instead of copying the contents of a ZIP to your card. It's just more work, and it's not easier.

This just shows, again, that you've not bothered to actually read what's been said and think about the benefits of a decent package system.

The PND doesn't need installing, it doesn't need extracting, it doesn't need copying onto an SD card - you can download it directly to the card on the pandora itself. Even if you do have to copy it over, there's still less to do than the Wiz or Caanoo needs - you just literally drag and drop and play. ROMs will have to be copied the same way as the Wiz/Canoe, but that's just the basic fact.

D.

 

[fishybawb]

That and the fact that they simply couldn't be bothered with a decent package system like PND (which was designed by and built by the community, not OPT) is just another of GPH's virtual single-finger gestures at the community.

Troll-fail, if PND was created by the community and not OPT, how is that different from GPH not including such a system? Is OPT flipping you off too? Pre-your Pandora arriving, I suspect you'd have said yes, now your nose appears to be stained brown with OPT's excrement

If there's enough interest, it'll happen on the Caanoo, if not, it won't.

The current "copy stuff to card" method seems to have worked fine for GP32, GP2X, Wiz and Dingoo, but if people want a different system, that's fine.

 

[CKeichel]

@Topor

So, basically you are saying a Caanoo isn't a Pandora, yeah, right, but then again, the Caanoo can be bought, the Pandora not.
This is the real difference. The Pandora is a nice idea, but not a nice product and first of all, it isn't even profitable for the people who make and sell it.
So, I can blame GPH for many things, but not for refusing to make a product, which they have to sell at loss and which isn't even available in any quantaties, that matter.
If all your talk about "this is the 21st century", "this is the future", etc. boils down to everything should be as the Pandora, I would object, cause this machine is not a step in the right direction. It's to expensive, it's not available, it's not powerful enough for it's price, it didn't get the dev support, it's makers hoped it will get.

In the end, the Caanoo doesn't have built in WiFi, so it is useless to complain about that and say "you could do what we do now on the Pandora", cause you are again completely ignoring what many people here said before. If you can set up an emulator this way (and like it or not, emulators are the most popular programs on open handhelds), it is still necessary to copy the roms over, so you still have to
1. Take the card out of your Pandora (or connect the device to your PC)
2. Open a Window of the emulator (and first look for it, cause you don't know, in which folder the PND was installed)
3. Open a Window with the roms on your computer
4. Copy them over to your Pandora

You can ignoring this fact again and again, it won't vanish.

his just shows, again, that you've not bothered to actually read what's been said and think about the benefits of a decent package system.

The PND doesn't need installing, it doesn't need extracting, it doesn't need copying onto an SD card - you can download it directly to the card on the pandora itself. Even if you do have to copy it over, there's still less to do than the Wiz or Caanoo needs - you just literally drag and drop and play. ROMs will have to be copied the same way as the Wiz/Canoe, but that's just the basic fact.

No, it's you who can't read, when we talk about the Caanoo and developments for the Caanoo, nobody would introduce a system, that depends on Internet-Access, so we are talking about an offline PND system. And you can go on and pretend, that
1. Copying a PND file to the card
2. Running an Installer
3. Installing a package

is lesser steps, then
1. Copying the contents of a ZIP file to the card

but it's not true.

 

[Dunny]

No, it's you who can't read, when we talk about the Caanoo and developments for the Caanoo, nobody would introduce a system, that depends on Internet-Access, so we are talking about an offline PND system. And you can go on and pretend, that
1. Copying a PND file to the card
2. Running an Installer
3. Installing a package

is lesser steps, then
1. Copying the contents of a ZIP file to the card

but it's not true.

Actually, you've failed to read again.

1. Copy a PND file to the card.

is actually far easier than

1. Extracting a zip file to the card.

You don't have to run an installer with PNDs - the OS detects them and does it for you.

Clear now?

For example, I "installed" a paint app for the Pandora. I downloaded the file to my laptop, then I copied it to the card. Then I went to the Pandora menu and started painting with it. Had I been inclined, I would have just downloaded the file directly to the card and the result would have been the same, just one less step.

Having no built-in wifi is just one of the reasons that the Caanoo is failing - there are many others. The question that should be answered is simple - why are new apps/games appearing almost every day for other handhelds and very few for the Caanoo?

D.

 

[Dunny]

That and the fact that they simply couldn't be bothered with a decent package system like PND (which was designed by and built by the community, not OPT) is just another of GPH's virtual single-finger gestures at the community.

Troll-fail, if PND was created by the community and not OPT, how is that different from GPH not including such a system? Is OPT flipping you off too? Pre-your Pandora arriving, I suspect you'd have said yes, now your nose appears to be stained brown with OPT's excrement

Yeah, that came out wrong, dinnit?

If there's enough interest, it'll happen on the Caanoo, if not, it won't.

And there's the problem with the Caanoo - there just doesn't appear to be much interest! Why is that, do you think?

D.

 

[qbertaddict]

[/quote]

And there's the problem with the Caanoo - there just doesn't appear to be much interest! Why is that, do you think?

D.
[/quote]
LOL look at the file archive there were 20 apps released for the caanoo last month and 2 for the pandora

 

[blues2]

so what is the most successful linux console? it definitely isn't the pandora even with it's pnd system nor is it the caanoo. what has the best community? what sold the most units? what has the most apps/games/emulators released for it within a relative timespan? and why is this console so popular?

 

[CKeichel]

[/quote]1. Copy a PND file to the card.

is actually far easier than

1. Extracting a zip file to the card.[/quote]

Mind to tell me why? I don't see any difference here, in terms of complexity.
I can't imagine, that you are overextended by double clicking the archinve and drag and drop it's contents to your card.

And again, I don't see of what use is it, if you have to take the card out of your Pandora after the installation (or connect the Pandora to your computer), look up, were the newly created roms folder is and copy the roms over there. You failed again to answer this question. Emulators are the prime attraction of the Caanoo and, from what I've seen on the Pandora boards, it's not different there.
An installer would bring zero advantages, but it would limit me, in terms, were I want to install my programs, because the PND installer of the Pandora don't let you choose any paths, right?

so what is the most successful linux console? it definitely isn't the pandora even with it's pnd system nor is it the caanoo. what has the best community? what sold the most units? what has the most apps/games/emulators released for it within a relative timespan? and why is this console so popular?

My guess is, it's the Dingoo, with Dingux, within the last 18 months, it got by far the most attention from developers, it was sold not only in the places, where you can buy a Caanoo or Pandora, but all over the Web and in retail in china and it is ridiculously cheap.
Even, if I take in consideration, that not on every Dingoo the Dingux OS is installed, I am pretty sure, it's user base is much bigger, then Caanoo's, Wiz's and Pandora's combined.
On Dingux, you don't have any kind of installer, you need to manually install a menu system, to get the thing running. A long time, people used dmenu, a menu, where you have manually edit ini files to make the program recognize an application. This was by far the most complex task, any system can ask of it's user. But did this hinder the consoles success? No.

 

[Schnatterplatsch]

LOL look at the file archive there were 20 apps released for the caanoo last month and 2 for the pandora

The Pandora had _13_(!!!) new/updated files THIS month, which is March. The Caanoo had 2. Says something, he?
I think it's all GPH's fault. Almost no dev - support, no backward compability to the Wiz, a _crap_ "app store" that doesn't get updated, praising the Caanoo as a "Network console".

Don't get me wrong, I like both WiZ and Caanoo. But GPH lets them fail...

 

[qbertaddict]

LOL look at the file archive there were 20 apps released for the caanoo last month and 2 for the pandora

The Pandora had _13_(!!!) new/updated files THIS month, which is March. The Caanoo had 2. Says something, he?
I think it's all GPH's fault. Almost no dev - support, no backward compability to the Wiz, a _crap_ "app store" that doesn't get updated, praising the Caanoo as a "Network console".

Don't get me wrong, I like both WiZ and Caanoo. But GPH lets them fail...

Its the 5th of march and the two apps for the caanoo this month are new apps not updates. The pandora is nice if you can get one. I think the people involved with the openpandora are kinda doing some crappy stuff. People are waiting for their pandoras but they are offering a guaranteed 7 day delivery if you pay $500 instead of the original price. Basically they are saying you arent our priority unless you pay extra. That in my opinion is a fail.

 

[Schnatterplatsch]

Let's not argue about that again....

Its the 5th of march and the two apps for the caanoo this month are new apps not updates.

You are reffering to the openhandhelds.org archive, are you? PocketSNES 6.5 is "just an update", too. Titlebars and Icons is no app at all.

 

[qbertaddict]

Let's not argue about that again....

Its the 5th of march and the two apps for the caanoo this month are new apps not updates.

You are reffering to the openhandhelds.org archive, are you? PocketSNES 6.5 is "just an update", too. Titlebars and Icons is no app at all.

o
No version 7.91b was released by a totally different person. No one put it up on the archive yet. It is a totally different version. There is also another game that was released that is not on the archive. I forget the name It and dont have my caanoo with me right now. There is a new updated emulator that just came out that I am really excited about. The vectrex emulator has been updated to include overlay support! Yes it is an update but it is a very nice update that the pandora version of the emulator has not recieved. I am sure it will though as the author has a pandora as well. As a matter a fact the dev of the emulator prefers working with the caanoo over the pandora. They are both great systems so we might as well just stop the 1 uping each other

 

[coldfish]

ahh Dunny, living up to your name.

<sigh>

 

[u9i]

@CKeichel, you seem to speak a lot for everyone. But there is no fact in what you say. You have no idea how many people have a wifi stick. Also, I for one am programming network-enabled apps, so saying no-one will ever do that is again a factless statement. Here is a little research I did on the number of connected Caanoos. There are some interesting comments that i read as "please give me a reason to buy a wifi dongle." But you make up your own mind.

@all, I think we should all cool down a little. This is not a pissing contest between Caanoo and Pandora. Torpor said, he is too lazy to install games on his Caanoo. No-one is saying this is making the Caanoo a failure. But it is one lost user, and that is a fact! And I think we can all agree, where there is one, there are many. We just don't know how many. These people could be kept in the eco system if the Caanoo kept up-to-date. I.e. one-click installations have become the norm, app-store eco systems have become the norm. Sticking to "it is not that difficult to unzip and copy content to sd card" is true, but it is still more work then browsing to your game, clicking install, and then starting to play.

I myself am in the same boat as torpor. Even more so. Because the spring on the Caanoo's SD card slot is so hard, after countless inserting and removing my card from my Caanoo it is about to split in two and fall apart.

The Caanoo has to keep up with the competition, otherwise it will fail. And I think no-one here wants to see her fail.

/Uni

 

[CKeichel]

@u9i

You are right, I have no numbers, and you have no numbers on how many Caanoos are WiFi enabled with a stick, I would say it's 5%. Why? A feeling, that browsing on this board and reading the posts gave me. Do you have another indicator, apart from your equally subjective poll? The poll now has 36 votes, if I look into the download archive, the most downloaded App, Mame has 7067 downloads, so I would say it's safe to say, 37 people aren't represantative. If you say, I have no fact in what I say, I agree with you, but neither you have.

You completely ignored the arguments people bought up, why an installer is useless, at least, if you use emulators and maybe you say, emulators are nothing, that interests you, I can say for sure, they are the most popular applications on the Caanoo (look at the download archive, the nine most downloaded applications are emulators and amongst the twenty most downloaded applications, 15 are emulators, so much for fact.
Unless you are adressing the fact, that you still have to eject the card (or connect the Caanoo to USB), to put the roms on the device, and tell me, how a one click installer can help me here, it doesn't make things easier. For games this is different, I agree, but the first game, that could benefit from it, comes on place twentyfour of the most downloaded Apps for the Caanoo (Quake needs the level files, so no network installation here), so I think my argument, that emulators are more poluplar then homebrew games on the Caanoo is still valid and proofed with a fact.

If you so eagerly want a network enabled installer, fine, it's an open console, feel free to write one, but honestly, I think most people won't use it, if this doesn't concern you (which would be totally ok, I don't mean this as criticism), go on.

And about the last paragraph, I have no problem with my Caanoo's spring, never heard of it, simply sounds like a faulty unit to me, nothing more.

EDIT: You asked me for a fact about the WiFi enabled consoles. Looking again at the download archive, I stumbled about at least an hint. The Web Browser has 1144 downloads, while Mame has 7067 downloads. I am sure, not everybody on this board downloads Mame, cause it's complicated to set up for many people, but I am sure, everybody with a WiFi enabled Caanoo loads the Web Browser, still it only has 16% of the downloads Mame has.

EDIT2: Allow me one last addition, you say
"I.e. one-click installations have become the norm, app-store eco systems have become the norm."
May I ask, where they have become the norm? Surely not on open handhelds, this are the devices we are talking right now, it is useless to compare the Caanoo to a Smartphone, because a Smartphone is always connected by default and the Appstore is run by a company, on open handhelds on the other side, it isn't the norm, as long as you don't say the Pandora is the norm, which would be rather bold.

 

[Jumpman]

GPH SUCKS ASS!

Nuff' Said!

Chris

 

[u9i]

EDIT: Very useful jumpman. Thanks for stopping by with that. Just what we all needed in this discussion.

equally subjective poll? [...] If you say, I have no fact in what I say, I agree with you, but neither you have.

How is a poll subjective? Anyway, I never said i had any facts, however i have pointed you to a little research to show that maybe more people have a wifi enabled Caanoo then the 5% you "feel." You make a good point by looking at the download archive. Very good point. But as with the poll, we both see very different things. 7k downloads for mame is helped by a few things, among which it was the very first software available in the archive. The browser, on the other hand, is quite new. I am not sure, but if i remember correctly mame already had well over 4k downloads before the browser was uploaded. Funny how statistics can show different things to different people. I think it is very encouraging to see the browser downloaded that many times.

About emulators. I agree with you, most people are into emulators, and actually relatively very few people are into homebrew. The ratio i don't know. And yes, a one-click installer for "illegal" roms is a dangerous affair.

I am not into emulators myself, so now you can see where i am coming from (although i have downloaded mame 3 times, that shows a little more about the statistics). Therefore to me and the others who are interested in homebrew, an installer would be awesome. For emulators, not so much. Sure it would be great, but i don't see anyone wanting to walk that legal line.

About my Caanoo's spring, i think it is a combination of my long nail, deeply recessed slot, relatively sturdy spring and maybe the sd card is a little on the cheap side. I'm sure i couldn't return it, and i wouldn't for that. I see it as my own fault. I shouldn't have brought it up really. Just wanted to paint the picture that i am not happy inserting and removing the sd cards.

"I.e. one-click installations have become the norm, app-store eco systems have become the norm."
May I ask, where they have become the norm? Surely not on open handhelds, this are the devices we are talking right now, it is useless to compare the Caanoo to a Smartphone, because a Smartphone is always connected by default and the Appstore is run by a company, on open handhelds on the other side, it isn't the norm, as long as you don't say the Pandora is the norm, which would be rather bold.

I won't say Pandora is the norm. What i am saying is, it is the norm on smartphones, and now pandora. Even Macs have their own appstore now. If Caanoo doesn't follow, users get lost. Maybe torpor is the first. We love our open device, but there is no reason to settle for second best. (again, i'm coming from homebrew background, i understand the difficulties in doing this for emulators). What we are really talking about here is that there is an opportunity to improve the user experience. It might be difficult for emulators, but those few that play homebrew i'm sure would appreciate it.

If you so eagerly want a network enabled installer, fine, it's an open console, feel free to write one, but honestly, I think most people won't use it [...].

I have! Most? no. They have their emulators. Torpor and others who enjoy homebrew? yes. (if i ever finish it)

Well i guess the cat's out of the bag.

/Uni