apps.open-pandora.org offline?

[Grench]

This turned into a bit of a rant in addition to the basic support questions.


The site linked for the Pandora apps site http://apps.open-pandora.org/ says that HTML5 is coming soon.


Unfortunately, it being down means that a lot of .pnd files are inaccessible. Where can I get vlutureseye.pnd while that repository is offline? What about the rest of the unique content that was there - is it gone for good?


Why isn't Pandroid.pnd on any of the repositories?


Why are there so many quality .pnd files that are not present in the PNDstore listings?


/* I start to ramble/rant here - ignore at your leisure. */


Each of the four? more? repositories has unique content - and some content isn't available on any of them and has to be searched out through the forums.


Is there anyplace that has a compiled list of all of the PND files and links to where to get them from? What we have now is hard enough for an experienced user - someone new to the scene could be quite lost just figuring out how to install a browser on their new Pandora. Think of all of the steps involved just to install their first PND file.


(Insert an SD card, may need to partition and format it, label the partitions, create a directory structure in /media/yourpartitionname/pandora/apps, turn on WiFi, establish a connection, go to System (not Networking) and open the PNDstore application, tell it to refresh both lists. Hunt through the non-alphabetical and non-sortable list that doesn't show you what size the file is until you find Chromium (not Chromium Dev) or Firefox - left click on it and install it. Then you may need to reboot to get the program recognized - if it downloaded properly - which there is no warning if it didn't, so you might need to remove it manually using command line since the thunar browser can't operate properly when more than 3 directories deep in a structure and /media/yourpartitionlabel/pandora/apps is four deep. Don't forget the contents of /media/yourpartitionlabel/pandora/appdata/yourappname and all of it's sub-directories if you want a clean install on the 2nd attempt and...)


The PND store is a great start. It needs help though.


-Each of the PND files that it houses has a built in classification scheme to populate the resulting program into a category on the menu bar. The PNDstore should be sortable based on these values.


-Needs additional columns to show file size, where it's coming from (source) and preferably a checksum.


-Needs to be sortable within and over categories, by name, category, size, source.


-List files that the PNDstore can't download or install as browser links. For the developers that for whatever pride/political/$/other reason won't allow their applications to be listed in the PNDstore, allow them to submit a link to be listed - that then takes the user to the site where the user can get the application.


Developers - take note. Your program that you create adds great value to this community. Hiding your application's .PND file in an obscure site only referenced by old threads in the backwater subject areas of a forum discussion - that rather detracts from not only your application's value, but from the community. Yes, you're probably on a net positive Karma on that, but why make it more difficult than it needs to be?

 

[quartercast]

I agree with a lot of your rant - but keep in mind that pandorawiki is your friend

 

[craigix]

Oh, Apps is coming back, don't worry about that


If only for the following features, which are still not available anywhere else:


A comment system which organises by version and supports voting (so the comments are actually useful)


A version history tab for the app


A video tab which allows both author and user videos to be posted


A simple category system which allows most things to be found in 3 clicks


Admin based organisation and details (so you actually get useful descriptions and screenshots/videos)


Designed for a touch screen


A clever search system, if you search for 'Amiga' for example, the site not only gives you Amiga results, it


also explains the state of current Amiga emulation and links Amiga on wikipedia.


A twitter feed.


Plus loads more little things.


And all of those features were there in 2010.


So yes, it's offline because of internal politics but it's coming back because we need a professionally organised PND resource.

 

[thatgui]

Oh, Apps is coming back, don't worry about that


If only for the following features, which are still not available anywhere else:


A comment system which organises by version and supports voting (so the comments are actually useful)


A version history tab for the app


A video tab which allows both author and user videos to be posted


A simple category system which allows most things to be found in 3 clicks


Admin based organisation and details (so you actually get useful descriptions and screenshots/videos)


Designed for a touch screen


A clever search system, if you search for 'Amiga' for example, the site not only gives you Amiga results, it


also explains the state of current Amiga emulation and links Amiga on wikipedia.


A twitter feed.


Plus loads more little things.


And all of those features were there in 2010.


So yes, it's offline because of internal politics but it's coming back because we need a professionally organised PND resource.

strange if it was "the next big thing after sliced bread" why were most people very happy when milkshake came up with it repo ?

 

[sebt3]

(Definatly not trolling)


So your site will add these features the repo dont have right now :


- videos


- designed for touchscreen


but will still lack :


- a dedicated client for pandora (making the designed for touchscreen moot)


- support from the devs (no support from me and many other devs until we are free to post there our way, which is a no go by the "Admin based organisation and details")


I dont get you. You're all for crowd-sourcing when it come to building the OS, getting apps running, even porting your own game on your own machine. But you want full control over the software repository. If the only option was the filearchive I would understand you. adding that video feature to the repo is a few hours of works at most. I'm sure milkshake will implement all the features you want.


The topic here wasnt about that anyway, but : could we recover the few PNDs that was only available on the old website somehow ?

 

[craigix]

(Definatly not trolling)


So your site will add these features the repo dont have right now :


- videos


- designed for touchscreen


but will still lack :


- a dedicated client for pandora (making the designed for touchscreen moot)


- support from the devs (no support from me and many other devs until we are free to post there our way, which is a no go by the "Admin based organisation and details")


I dont get you. You're all for crowd-sourcing when it come to building the OS, getting apps running, even porting your own game on your own machine. But you want full control over the software repository. If the only option was the filearchive I would understand you. adding that video feature to the repo is a few hours of works at most. I'm sure milkshake will implement all the features you want.


The topic here wasnt about that anyway, but : could we recover the few PNDs that was only available on the old website somehow ?

There is nothing I can do if *you* won't support it is there? I don't think you should consider all devs have your opinions. I built Pandor Apps with several devs at the time.


However from my point of view a well organised file resource is for the customers benefit, and it is what is required, the current set up isn't ideal.

Oh, Apps is coming back, don't worry about that


If only for the following features, which are still not available anywhere else:


A comment system which organises by version and supports voting (so the comments are actually useful)


A version history tab for the app


A video tab which allows both author and user videos to be posted


A simple category system which allows most things to be found in 3 clicks


Admin based organisation and details (so you actually get useful descriptions and screenshots/videos)


Designed for a touch screen


A clever search system, if you search for 'Amiga' for example, the site not only gives you Amiga results, it


also explains the state of current Amiga emulation and links Amiga on wikipedia.


A twitter feed.


Plus loads more little things.


And all of those features were there in 2010.


So yes, it's offline because of internal politics but it's coming back because we need a professionally organised PND resource.

strange if it was "the next big thing after sliced bread" why were most people very happy when milkshake came up with it repo ?

I've no idea, from the PMs I get I don't think 'most people' is accurate. Especially the number of PM's since after /someone/ casued Pandora apps to be temporarily taken offline.


This is why it's coming back, because too many people want it back for me to ignore it.


Oh and the new version has even more features than before.


Because it's maintained by openpandora it means it will always be there as long as the Pandora exists, properly maintained and updated, with customers needs in mind. We already have Mods who want to moderate and maintain it.


I understand the repo has been neglected in the last year because Milkshake has a full time job now, and he isn't allowing his source code to be accessed.


It's that sort of thing which stops us being a proper organised company, it's why we need our own file resource.


I said all this back in 2010 and I still feel it's the case now, especially since the new website is taking a professional approach.


You know, if Milkshake released his sourcecode I'm sure the repo could be updated to have a lot more features, I'd be open to that, as long as the code is documented so we can continue development and there are no conditions attached.

 

[EvilDragon]

A comment system which organises by version and supports voting (so the comments are actually useful)

That's missing on the repo and a good idea, indeed.

A version history tab for the app

Well, you can download archived versions in the repo, a changelog is not saved, but would also be a neat addition.

A videotab which allows both author and user videos to be posted

Neat for desktop usage, but the Pandora sadly isn't good to play videos, so it wouldn't work there :/

A simple category system which allows most things to be found in 3 clicks

The repo uses the categories from the files itself, so they are consistent with what you got on your Pandora.


And the dev doesn't have to manually select them, which is neat as well.

Admin based organisation and details (so you actually get useful descriptions and screenshots/videos)

Even easier on the repo: No need to enter descriptions and screenshots, as the repo grabs them automagically from the PND.


And if a dev is too lazy to enter a useful description and preview pic into the PND, he's most likely also too lazy to do so when uploading.

Designed for a touch screen

Not really needed, as PNDManager handles this a lot better than any webbrowser, including updating, commenting, etc.


It's like using Googles PlayStore - way more convenient than using the browser on the Android device to download and install game.


Also, updating all PNDs at once to the most recent version is not possible with a browser-only solution, so as long as the appstore supports JSON-interface, a touch based website doesn't make sense, as it's way better handled with PNDManager

A clever search system, if you search for 'Amiga' for example, the site not only gives you Amiga results, it


also explains the state of current Amiga emulation and links Amiga on wikipedia.

That's neat - how does this work without a lot of manual interaction?

A twitter feed.

The repo has RSS, which is automagically posted to the Facebook Pandora page and it's also easy to post this automatically to Twitter.


So while the appstore has some unique features which would be really neat on the repo as well, it also has some important things missing, mainly the API to use other programs like PNDManager to interact with it.


I never even visit the repo anymore, I just fire up PNDManager, install new stuff I find there, update all PNDs I have automatically, rate stuff and add comments.


Much more convenient than using a webbrowser.


Both systems could learn from each other, but in my opinion, because of the PXML-Data extraction and the PNDManager-connection, the repo is way better at the moment.

 

[craigix]

But Ed, the problem with just pulling the details from the file is that they tend to not contain very much information and sometimes it's just plain wrong (especially with several ports).


Just look around the repo, it needs serious organisation.


This is why I think people like Apples app store, they do a really good job of making you have a lot of detailed information.


It's our customers who need to be confident and informed on how to use these apps, the current set up just isn't good enough or professional IMO.

 

[milkshake]

Yes but it's not apple that put the app information there its the dev who does that, so as mentioned above somewhere said if The dev can't be bothered to write these things in their pnd why would they bother with typing it onto a website?


Also I have been working on the repo mainly creating an API so clients can post comments and rate etc directly from the client.


Some other stuff u have mentioned was meet though.


I will add more and when the repo is in a more code maintainable state where sections can be chucked in etc i will release the source to things like handling getting the data from the pnd etc.

 

[craigix]

Can't you just make it totally open so we can maintain it, what if something happens in your life which means you cannot continue with this? Like you die? Or have a midlife crisis, or a HDD crash, or you go and become a monk, turning your back on technology forever... or Sony just pay you to close it down, just as we are finding our feet?


As for the detailed information, Apple just make you have it or the app is rejected.


My solution is a little more friendly, and it's how I always ran Pandora Apps, I'd add it to the app myself if it wasn't there.


So I'm saying mods do that work, they add detailed instructions, screen shots and videos where required.


I really feel it's a big, near full time job though, which is why I'm concerned about your ability to do it all yourself.

 

[EvilDragon]

But Ed, the problem with just pulling the details from the file is that they tend to not contain very much information and sometimes it's just plain wrong (especially with several ports).

If the dev doesn't put the proper description into the PXML, why should he put one into the appstore?


Either a dev DOES include a proper description or not.

Just look around the repo, it needs serious organisation.

I don't really see where... except for some old PNDs where the devs really didn't care much about descriptions, all recent apps and games I can see there have proper descriptions.


I can sort by date, categories, etc., and using PNDManager is very comfortable.


To be honest, for me, the repo is much more organized and tidied up than the Google Playstore, based on my experience with my Google Nexus.

This is why I think people like Apples app store, they do a really good job of making you have a lot of detailed information.

I've never used an Apple device, but is APPLE providing the detailed information or are the AUTHORS doing it?


If the authors are doing it, then it's not much we can do here, because either they provide the information or not.


As most authors SELL their apps on the Apple appstore, I'm pretty sure they include a good description on purpose - to increase sales.


This won't help on the Pandora appstore.

It's our customers who need to be confident and informed on how to use these apps, the current set up just isn't good enough or professional IMO.

Installing the apps is WAY more easy with the repo at the moment.


Start PNDManager, select the game you want (or search, etc.), click on INSTALL and that's it.


It's as easy as it is on Android, though I find the PNDManager more comfortable than Googles Playstore.


WAY more easy than using any webbrowser.

 

[craigix]

But Ed, the problem with just pulling the details from the file is that they tend to not contain very much information and sometimes it's just plain wrong (especially with several ports).

If the dev doesn't put the proper description into the PXML, why should he put one into the appstore?


Either a dev DOES include a proper description or not.

Just look around the repo, it needs serious organisation.

I don't really see where... except for some old PNDs where the devs really didn't care much about descriptions, all recent apps and games I can see there have proper descriptions.


I can sort by date, categories, etc., and using PNDManager is very comfortable.


To be honest, for me, the repo is much more organized and tidied up than the Google Playstore, based on my experience with my Google Nexus.

This is why I think people like Apples app store, they do a really good job of making you have a lot of detailed information.

I've never used an Apple device, but is APPLE providing the detailed information or are the AUTHORS doing it?


If the authors are doing it, then it's not much we can do here, because either they provide the information or not.


As most authors SELL their apps on the Apple appstore, I'm pretty sure they include a good description on purpose - to increase sales.


This won't help on the Pandora appstore.

It's our customers who need to be confident and informed on how to use these apps, the current set up just isn't good enough or professional IMO.

Installing the apps is WAY more easy with the repo at the moment.


Start PNDManager, select the game you want (or search, etc.), click on INSTALL and that's it.


It's as easy as it is on Android, though I find the PNDManager more comfortable than Googles Playstore.


WAY more easy than using any webbrowser.

You seem to be missing the point over and over, I'm saying that we mod and add this information ourselves if the Dev isn't prepared to. That has been my opinion since 2009 (and what I used to do on Pandora apps), it's the only way to solve it and give the customer a balanced and easy experience.


PS most apps on Apples store are free, you don't have to sell apps on it.

 

[EvilDragon]

Can't you just make it totally open so we can maintain it, what if something happens in your life which means you cannot continue with this? Like you die?

I got the full sourcecode, the repo runs on my server...

As for the detailed information, Apple just make you have it or the app is rejected.

That's definitely not what we want

So I'm saying mods do that work, they add detailed instructions, screen shots and videos where required.

But that wouldn't solve the issue that the details are wrong in the PND itself.


WHEN some mods should do that, they should do that directly in the PND. Though it's easy to piss off devs by simply modifying their work...


Maybe some switch a dev can set that gives permission to the moderators to edit / fix description, categories, screenshots, etc. would help?


Then the dev can decide whether he wants that someone meddles around in his PND or not.


milkshake: Would it be possible to change descriptions, etc. directly on the server, affecting the PND as well?


The tools to extract and repack a PND should be on my server, would this work with perl?


That would be some convenient thing as well if devs can fix description errors in their PND directly from the repo

 

[milkshake]

Heavens forbid I should die but if something like this might happen I have already told ed he can do what he wants with the code at that point (including opening it all up if he wants and this is also what I will aim to do in the end anyway preferably before I die lol).

 

[craigix]

Can't you just make it totally open so we can maintain it, what if something happens in your life which means you cannot continue with this? Like you die?

I got the full sourcecode, the repo runs on my server...

As for the detailed information, Apple just make you have it or the app is rejected.

That's definitely not what we want

So I'm saying mods do that work, they add detailed instructions, screen shots and videos where required.

But that wouldn't solve the issue that the details are wrong in the PND itself.


WHEN some mods should do that, they should do that directly in the PND. Though it's easy to piss off devs by simply modifying their work...


Maybe some switch a dev can set that gives permission to the moderators to edit / fix description, categories, screenshots, etc. would help?


Then the dev can decide whether he wants that someone meddles around in his PND or not.


milkshake: Would it be possible to change descriptions, etc. directly on the server, affecting the PND as well?


The tools to extract and repack a PND should be on my server, would this work with perl?


That would be some convenient thing as well if devs can fix description errors in their PND directly from the repo

This just sounds like you want to continue down the path of this all being a mess.


Don't you want to organise and detail all the apps in a professional way?


I just cannot see why a Dev would object to this, but then again...

 

[EvilDragon]

You seem to be missing the point over and over, I'm saying that we mod and add this information ourselves if the Dev isn't prepared to. That has been my opinion since 2009 (and what I used to do on Pandora apps), it's the only way to solve it and give the customer a balanced and easy experience.

As mentioned above, this is fine, but the dev needs to agree to that, unless you want to piss them off.


However, a proper repo should also have a proper API to communicate with a good client like PNDManager.


That's more important than having a few bad descriptions (as mentioned, most descriptions on the repo are fine, only a few would really need moderating).


With PNDManager, I can try out an app directly on my Pandora within seconds and update all my apps at once.


With a web browser, I cannot do that.

 

[diligentcircle]

About moderating, that could be useful, but I think the best way to do this would be to allow an option to hide apps that are not "certified", or something, perhaps turned on by default. You maybe could also have an option to uploaders that gives the moderators permission to modify the description and screenshots of the PND, and an easy way for mods to do this.

 

[skeezix]

I hate to say it but..


profesionally maintained?


- dev requests to udpate data.. ignored (for lack of time, single admin and all)


- its down right now .. thats not professional


- massively out of date historically, since its crummy in a lot of ways; hence having a robot-person go through to udpate pnds, but doign so badly.. and also meanign devs don't own their own work in the thing, so can' tupdate anything anyway


- ignores all community driven standards; ie: the repo spec and so forth. If it added support for repo spec, all the existing tools would _just work_ on the pandora, like they do for repo; why not add the repo spec?


... etc


Thats the problem; goign on your own way is fine, this lets you do things differently and/or above and beyondf what standards allow; but ignore the standards and will fo the devs and community as well, is pretty 'bull headed annoying'


ie: sebt3 is one, mcobit is another, notaz another, etc.. the top devs are all annoyed and don't want their stuff there. Thats a hint


No one has anything against your appstop, but for its technical and philisophical letdowns. Why is it that notaz' app is still (or spent a year or two at least) with mispelling in the name, that he couldn't correct, and no one would do for him, for instance?


With it being so unprofesional historically, why would anyone believe the new one to be any better, when core points are still not being addressed. (repo spec being the big one.)


The main benefit to the dl.openhandhelds archive is that it supports non-pnd (ie: pdfs, zips, whatever.) I think milkshake really needs to add that to the repo, so that it could be central to all things.. take some design changes and probabyl some repo-spec changes, but its worth doing; right now, there must at least be repo and dl.open to cover all the bases (ie: think of things like UI skins, that are not executables.)


jeff

Taking the details from the pnd is the only way to fly; making the dev/uploader re-enter it all is asking for errors and out of sync problems.


If the info in the pnd is in error or sucky, the dev shoudl fix it, or people will down vote it.. self correcting.


jeff

 

[craigix]

You seem to be missing the point over and over, I'm saying that we mod and add this information ourselves if the Dev isn't prepared to. That has been my opinion since 2009 (and what I used to do on Pandora apps), it's the only way to solve it and give the customer a balanced and easy experience.

As mentioned above, this is fine, but the dev needs to agree to that, unless you want to piss them off.

I just don't see why a Dev would get pissed off if we improved and updated their descriptions so it was more user friendly/solved issues, I'd make it a condition of uploading that they had to expect their description to be improved if it was not up to scratch.


I mean people signed up to this forum and agree similar things, it runs quite well.

 

[EvilDragon]

Don't you want to organise and detail all the apps in a professional way?

I'd love to have an appstore that features ALL of that, sure.


Both your old appstore and the repo are not perfect, they both have advantages and disadvantages.


A combination of both would be great, and I'm sure milkshake will add some features that are needed, as he has done this a few times already.


However, an easy way to manage, update and install your apps and programs is the most important thing, and this currently only works with the repo.


Imagine Android without Google Playstore, but instead you'd have to use the webbrowser on the device, download the apps you want and manually check if they have been updated...


That would be terrible. And that would be the case on the Pandora as well with any repo that doesn't support JSON. The specs are open and can be implemented in any appstore, so any other appstore is welcome, but right now, only the repo supports it.

I just cannot see why a Dev would object to this, but then again...

If a dev enters a description he things is good, he doesn't want that anyone meddles around with it.


Would you like that if you were a dev?