Anyone here from Sweden?

[ClockworkCoder]

When I first saw this thread's title I thought it was about someone wanting to meet up. There is indeed a surprising amount of vitriol / racism for such a diverse community.

The bottom line is that there are good and bad people everywhere, and no group represents all of its "member's" views.

 

[ZXDunny]

sorry but that is not the reality "we" live in. that is the reality you live in, or rather what you consider to be reality. what the fuck happened to people and to these boards? has everyone turned into blatant racist assholes nowadays?

Unfortunately, this is what the internet has done. By far the greatest meeting point for people are the social networks, which by design are huge echo chambers where you are only likely to read things that interest you (in this case, it's racism and bigotry - not you personally, but YKWIM) and only meet up with people that feel the same way you do. That wouldn't be much of a problem except for how it makes these people think that the whole world looks like what they're seeing on their feeds. And then there's the undemocratically elected right-wingers which give a semblance of acceptance to these assholes, so people become emboldened.

These boards are no exception - we're all into our Pandoras and awaiting the Pyra, and we feed eachother in loops with related info. But occasionally the racists like mJohansson are provoked by a troll and think that they must shout their opinions and parade them as fact. For those of us that don't possess his fear and paranoia, that don't want to blame people we've never met for our failings as he does, it comes across as hate - but he's just confusing our corner of the internet for his own bubble of intolerance.

Hence I like to poke fun at him. I probably shouldn't - he has a real problem, and should seek help, but there you go, that's the kind of guy I am. Others may look at the right-wing racist bigots and say "meh, they're just idiots, ignore them," but others might look at their actions and think "We need to defend ourselves against all these racist assholes" and physically go on the offensive - which brings us back to those echo chambers again; not all of us think in a damaged way that our friend on here does, but we get lumped in with him because the groups he maligns are feeding on their own fears - fears that mjohansson has given them.

 

[mjohansson]

And were back to square one, like I said the problem is there is no debate, no compromise even, as soon as the left has nothing to say no rational arguments to make the racist card comes flying and the left run away. Why would I think the people here would be any different? I feel like Im eating crazy pills, are you just not understanding the points Im trying to make? You talk of me as if I lived in a fantasy bubble, and thats how I see people to the left, as if they cover their ears run into their little bubbles of like minded people were they dont have to deal with reality and the brutality of it.
In reality not all people are kind and not everyone speak the truth, so you have to weigh the good against the bad.
Lets look at a few facts in our lives:
There was a terror attack in Stockholm some time ago, amongst the victims was an 11 year old kid, my question is, was it worth her life to possibly aid what is clearly adults asking for asylum? In the light of blatant lies about age and identy and the rampant criminality of the people coming in, and Im not saying everyone but its offensivly high amount of criminality, my answer is it was not worth it, and my guess is that the left would argue more people had their lives saved then had their lives taken on the street there. If that is the case there is a disagree, and who is right? Who is to determine who is right? From experience my opinion is that "the truth is usually somewere inbetween". Perhaps Im being overly harsh when I want to close the door to islam, perhaps there is a way of compromise with some form of control or demands on immigrants, but the left is just not open for debate or negotiation.
What have we gotten with open borders? Helping people? Your not helping anyone thats the most offensive aspect in my opinion. Instead I see gangs of thieves driving their vans straight into my country, breaking into houses and torturing elders that lives there and filling their van and driving straight out again, no checks and police cant do nothing, round after round the vans keep coming...
We got jihad on our streets. We have familys being torn apart because leftist cant tolerate "racists" thats dont accept open borders.

I dont know what to say, there just dosnt seem to be a way to get through to you, its like every word I write translates to this man is a racist in your heads, then you talk of me in 3rd person and declares Im a sad racist that needs help.

"We need to defend ourselves against all these racist assholes"
Are you a muslim? Or in what way to you feel like you have to specificly defend yourself? Because thats what Im doing, defending myself from the harm that comes with open borders. And its not surprising, for ex if a person had commited a crime in their own country they could loose their passport and seek asylum here stating their from Syria and fleeing a lethal war, thats entirely possible, what method do you have to determine if thats the case?

And again, trying to put it as simple as I can:
Is it worth that swedish people die to potentially help people from other nations? We have formed our nations to look after our own interests, not just to protect from foreign armies, not just to help the people that happens to be born here, but also to preserve our way of life, our unique behavours and thaughts and feelings, everything that could be called culture, and I dont see that as a bad thing or hurtful to other nations people. I dont see that as hate.
My country is my house in extension, and your demanding I open the door and let in whoever that comes along nomatter who or why, and I know from bitter experience a lot will be criminals, cant you see now how offended I am by your proposal? You cant demand I should "help" others, you can ask but its up to me if I want to or not, form a volunteer army and go to their countries and help them there, help them aquire peacefull democracies, help all nations nationalise their banks and there is endless potential for all nations to prosper, but its not a job for Sweden, its a job for volunteers.
[doublepost=1509624117,1509623554][/doublepost]Oh and something I wanted to say also:
Did you know that it has been stated that terroists often target kids to make maximum effect?
Do you think that every terroist attack ISIS claims to be behind, they have been responsible for? Its possible not all of them have been the works of ISIS, its possible they just take the blame for the purpose of inciting war, to force the muslim polulations in the western world to choose a side. People are becoming radicalized and were all being played against each other, it looks to be working good, and I certainly dont see the left doing anything to help this from happening, only the opposite, thats why I see war in our future.
So if a civil war would break out, what would you be fighting for? The nation or the open border internationalists? Or ISIS? Or would you pack your bags and flee to another country? What if there was war everywere and nowere to run?

 

[ZXDunny]

And there it is. You have absolutely no reason to suspect any muslims of being terrorists - how many do you know personally? Or have you only seen terrorists on the news? Me, I know quite a lot. As some of you may know, I was previously a registered nurse and worked closely with refugee and immigrant communities in our home town. Never met a nasty one out of the literal thousands that passed by my doors. Always the abuse came from the other direction - people who look at their own lives and see their failings and their own faults and look for someone else to blame. And they find those people to blame based on their race, their culture or their religion. It's very, very sad to see and you have my sympathy.

And although you may not be a racist in strict terms - you probably don't discriminate based on skin colour - you most certainly are a bigot in the strictest sense of the word. You do need help, and you are ill.

 

[mjohansson]

I dont know any muslims. I dont know what failings and faults you speak of, but I dont blame my life situation on any one else.
"You have absolutely no reason to suspect any muslims of being terrorists", the simple fact is we didnt have jihad attacks before we opened the border, I dont suspect any individual specificly, I just see the fact that as some political people say like the mayor of London for ex, jihad attacks is something we now have to live with thanks to "multiculture". Well thats simply not acceptable to me.
Because all the muslims you met are nice, atleast towards you at that moment, there will not be any more jihad attacks?
WE HAVE NO RESPONSIBILTY TO OTHER NATIONS PEOPLE, there is no REASON why we MUST have open borders, I assume you argue we save other nations peoples lives? I argue the opposite, we dont save any lives because the reason they come is a fraud or illegitimate and we certainly dont save the lives of our own. Even if there is one saved legitimate refugee I argue its not fair to the people of our nation that will die or be exposed to the criminality that has come with open borders, because ultimatly we dont have any responsibility then what we take on by our free will, and you cannot force people against their will, its an act of aggression, its a crime.
You want to help foreigners? Volunteer and go to their countries, I applaud you, but I wont join you, and I dont want to be called sick racist bigot for it.
"Never met a nasty one out of the literal thousands that passed by my doors." Tell that to the 11 year old kid that died in a jihad attack, tell that to her parents and relatives. You cant make this kind of situation possible based on feelings and personal experience, you have to look at the facts and be blunt. I say its the left that is ill and needs help. Your the ones who lives in a fantasy and act on faith accordingly to what seem like a religous cult.

 

[benoitb]

Mr Johansson, you are making mistake. The mistake is to tell that there was no jihad attacks before you opened the border and the solution is in closing the border.
Let me tell you a sad truth: closing the border will not stop any terrorist attack. Persecuting people will not stop terrorism. Mark my words and monitor the situation in the USA. Trump is applying what you think is the solution with his Muslim ban, I can guarantee you the terrorist attacks won't stop that way.
This is very sad but the hard French experience showed that in many instances the terrorist attacks where done by French citizens. You can close the border all you want, build walls all you want...

The war the terrorists are doing is not because of religion, it would be conducted with or without any religious aspect. Religion is just a tool they use to recruit weak individuals.
You probably won't do it but if you traveled to Muslim countries and met people with an open mind you would be surprised by the hospitality there.

I also believe that a very small amount of people are happy to leave their homeland. So the ideal situation would be to avoid creating war zones and let a chance to non-rich countries to have a life of their own. The US and the EU do have some responsibility is a number of conflicts and created or contributed to some disastrous situations.

 

[ZXDunny]

Agreed, terror attacks have been happening for a very long time indeed. Long before the muslims were the enemy of choice, we had the IRA and other similar groups - domestically grown, fomented within our own borders. We dealt with them by including them, not isolating ourselves from them. Closing borders in the name of preventing terror and keeping your culture/language/national identity intact leads to nothing but stagnation and decay.

 

[PCXT]

The problem of conflicts is that they are profitable.
In the Internet, people will click more ads.
In the cities, people will fight making a reason to add more surveillance.
In the countries, people will destroy infrastructure which will allow to take more debts by foreign government.
And in the "Web 4.0" in which people think that centrally-controlled propaganda service is dependent on them, normal debate would never happen. We are too manipulated.
Let's look at the Internet: I remember the simple rule: You don't want something, don't go to its website. If I don't like country music, I just don't go to country music clubs, but I'm not against country music clubs. All that simple, and this rule was for years, even after in 1994 one organization said "here's the world net, have it". However, the modern internet works on the ridiculous principle that, let's move it to music example, if you shut country clubs down, people would start listening to your style of music. Because this rule is absurd, it's needed to keep the conflicts going.
The same way it is possible to replace everything, from products, through patterns of thinking, to governments.

 

[rygD]

That's where religion comes in.
The problem are not "foreign" cultures but religion

If you stop right there, I totally agree. Organised religion is, and has historically been a huge problem (thousands of years, at least). Revealed religions are probably a major factor (I am liking at you, cults of Abraham, that not only attack the outsiders, but each other for variations on your beliefs about your one god and its teachings).

Religion isn't the only cause of problems, but it is a big one. (Cultural differences will always be something that must be dealt with.) Isn't it about time to outlaw religion? (Again?)

Note: While I am joking about outlawing religion, specifically organised religion, since I know it will never happen, it is a major contributor to many pay and present issues in the western world. Yes, it has shaped our culture, so it is important to acknowledge and remember all of that, but it needn't be a major decision-making point for policy, or even when interacting with others individually. (Maybe if these ultra religious types could actually live by the golden rule, or show some compassion, my attitude would be different, but look at all the war and suffering and death caused in the name of a god, often the same god in the last thousand years or so. Hell, even those dedicated to a goddess whose thing is war and suffering and death have nothing on these people, and you know they could at any moment try to fuck shit up! Don't worry, I think I have been doing a pretty good job of not fucking things up to)

We have the right that we take

I make the border, I grant the "permission", I enforce the rules, I have the right I take.

If the outsiders have that same attitude, don't worry, they will make sure to uphold those rights when they take them. I wonder how that would work out? I sure see a LOT of European faces in North America, and almost no natives.

Hence I like to poke fun at him. I probably shouldn't

Nah, I disagree. We all need to be poked once in a while, especially if it might get us thinking about what we think and believe. Lemme know if you need a knife for poking.

So if a civil war would break out, what would you be fighting for? The nation or the open border internationalists? Or ISIS? Or would you pack your bags and flee to another country? What if there was war everywere and nowere to run?

Why do we need to pick a side? I, for one, think you are all morons.


Hey, who has the popcorn? And for my soundtrack, music that most of you have never heard of, and some that will probably offend all equally.

 

[Caine]

I think you are all morons too. But I would not go so far as to exclude myself from that set. Thus we are all morons.

 

[rygD]

Well, yeah. Just because I didn't say it (this time) doesn't mean it isn't so. It should be pretty obvious I am just as bad, or worse, than the rest of you filthy apes.

I forgot to mention earlier, one way to fix all these problems is to get rid of the humans.

If you want to be active, kill all humans you see, regardless of skin colour, sex, age, and whatever else. Just avoid looking in any reflective surfaces for a while to make sure you have the highest level of influence possible. (I am not serious, but, hey, ya gotta start somewhere, right?)

 

[asdf334]

Sorry to hear about yet another terror attack, 12 in 24 days.. that is unless the American's racist media is lying to us. Cutting to the chase here, the only way I see this coming to an end is that Swede's decide to stand up for themselves, vigilantly justice becomes legitimized, the government is voted out and media replaced. That is not a easy transition, not an ideal solution and also not very likely to occur any time soon. At the current rate things are going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

 

[Binky]

vigilantly justice becomes legitimized

I can't see how that would be a good thing, really. Large numbers of barely-trained citizens in stressful situations are likely to get trigger-happy or panic, with a generally much greater risk of unwarranted physical injury.

Of course, there are plenty of abusive and careless police officers out there, but that's a problem with implementation, not principle.

 

[___]

that is unless the American's racist media is lying to us

This is so cute... people like you are so quick at shouting "fake news", rather believing random internet propaganda and blown out of proportion anecdotes, except for when the news actually supports their world view. Of course there is terrorist attacks, and yes there is also rape and other crime. And yes, there is also immigrants, refugees and ethnic groups that do cause issues and are as criminal and fallible as other human beings - no shit sherlock, great perception skills there. Still you can offer no solution to actual problems, rather finding a scape goat and blaming everything on them and calling for closed borders as a solution to social unrest and world wide problems.

And were back to square one, like I said the problem is there is no debate, no compromise even, as soon as the left has nothing to say no rational arguments to make the racist card comes flying and the left run away.

Where did I run to? I am right here and I am not "the left", I am xnopasaranx of the openpandora "community" of which you are a part of as well. I was addressing the asdf334 dude as a troll, because I think he is! This topic is an obvious bait topic and it completely worked. The guy has 11 posts so far (and a random hammer away at the keyboard nickname), 5 of which actually concern other topics and a tendency to only post here right now. Last post is again some vague BS without stating a point.

So again, who is running away from a debate? It is not possible to discuss these things with this kind of people, I have posted a website on which you can actually check statistics about crime and actual facts which is being ignored. Sorry, I don't have the time or motivation to make up fairy tales and dig up anecdotal evidenve to counter your bullshit.

Also I think that human rights is not a compromisable topic and if you think that it is, I have no interest in debating anything with you. Human rights should be a given, even for people from cultures/contexts which do not honor them. Get your priorities straight and stop reading Breitbart/RT propaganda and basing your skewed world view on this.

My neighbours are muslims, lots of my friends are muslims (I do have my problems with their world view as well often times, blatant homophobia and anti-semitism are wide spread and I often argue with my muslim friends about these topics) and guess what there used to be a bunch of muslim members on gp32x/openpandora too, before people like you felt entitled to spew their bullshit here. These people have disappeared completely. I wonder why? Maybe they do not feel included or accepted in this community anymore? I am sure a lot of them also have difficulties using the internet at all and maybe something horrible has happened to a couple as well (used to have a few people from iraq and arabic countries). Meanwhile we have to deal with fear mongering and propaganda that is saturating everything.

Many people have actually worked in refugee camps or organized aid for arrivals when the first trains arrived here, I have been there and helped organize rations and media campaigns along with my colleagues, interviewed people who have spent days without sleep in order to take care of hungry and desperate refugees, families torn apart etc. They are not running away from anything and actually DO SOMETHING rather than discuss their gut feelings of "these weird looking foreigners will eat our babies and rape our women" on the internet.

EDIT: A couple of sources with actual data:
Strangely enough, most attacks that have actually killed people have been carried out by white supremecists. Let's close the borders, so they don't have reasons to attack anyone anymore!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Sweden


And because the government is lying apparently, you can ignore this website just as all the other actual facts and rational thinking:
http://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/

 

[Klumpen]

The truth is - as always - somewhere in between.

 

[Caine]

Also I think that human rights is not a compromisable topic and if you think that it is, I have no interest in debating anything with you. Human rights should be a given, even for people from cultures/contexts which do not honor them.

I agree with you on that, though we probably differ on what constitutes a human right.

If you were to take for example the declaration of human rights, which contains as much sense as it contains nonsense in my not so humble opinion. Then it states e.g.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Yet, I am born into partial slavery having to work about half of my time for the upkeep and health of others. If I refuse then I am jailed. I think that many clauses of the declaration cannot be enforced without violating others, thus making it a contradictory piece of work.

 

[mjohansson]

I dont know what else to say, the left and the right have always disagreed with eachother but this muslim migration has been gasolin on a fire, I was at a birthday party yesterday and there was a political debate, I have thaught this before but I was reminded yesterday that I think people NEVER change political opinions throughout their lifes.
Born leftist, stay leftis till death, and vice verca.
Im gonna propose the perfect solution from now on instead, reorganize all countries to leftist and rightists countries, this is as rooted and as important as any religion to people, because its the most fundamental way of life. We cant all agree about everything, so we cant all live under one and same system in one and same country. Seperate to keep peace.

 

[Caine]

The political spectrum is not a line but a multidimensional shape. It does not happen all that often that people flip to the opposite side, but they do move around. The best counter example is perhaps the ideological left-wing academic who becomes right-wing as soon as he or she starts to earn money.

From what I can tell, it is more polarized and fixed in the United States than it is in Europe (or at least the Netherlands).
We have many political parties and a coalition based government rather than just two extremes. Many people switch parties fairly often.

It is also said that left-wing in the US is extreme right in the EU, but I have no idea to what extent that is true.
Though our left-wingers do seem much more extreme than in the US (bordering communism, if you ask me).

Personally, I used to be neo-liberal, but through a lot of reading I have become much more libertarian (tempered by pragmatism).
Though on the political spectrum these are not very far apart from each other, and both would mostly be considered right-wing here.

 

[___]

I dont know what else to say, the left and the right have always disagreed with eachother but this muslim migration has been gasolin on a fire, I was at a birthday party yesterday and there was a political debate, I have thaught this before but I was reminded yesterday that I think people NEVER change political opinions throughout their lifes.
Born leftist, stay leftis till death, and vice verca.
Im gonna propose the perfect solution from now on instead, reorganize all countries to leftist and rightists countries, this is as rooted and as important as any religion to people, because its the most fundamental way of life. We cant all agree about everything, so we cant all live under one and same system in one and same country. Seperate to keep peace.

I thought you were looking for a debate? So you are actually running away from a debate now, as you seemingly have no actual arguments? Also: the fundament of democracy is debate and conflict, otherwise it would not be necessary. It can and will never ever work without constant struggle of opinions, that is the whole purpose of a democracy. You can try to seperate people of different political stances all you want, you'll never build a functional state like that. To do that it is necessary to enforce the one opinion/political course you want everyone in your weird seperatist community to share. Usually that requires violent oppression and a repressive government, such as you claim our democratic governments to be like now. I wish you'd do it and take people who think that this is a good idea with you, so you guys can find out exactly how it is like to live in a place where you can actually not express your opinion and where actual totalitarian oppression takes place.

@Caine I do get what you are trying to say, but please refrain from comparisons of slavery and paid labor. If you think that this analogy applies, you have no idea what actual slavery is like.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 1-3 seems to become less and less important nowadays I guess. Apparently everyone does not have a right to life, liberty and security of person...

one more important article:

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

That includes rapists, pedophiles, neonazis and islamists btw in case you didn't know.

 

[Caine]

I do get what you are trying to say, but please refrain from comparisons of slavery and paid labor. If you think that this analogy applies, you have no idea what actual slavery is like.

I obviously exaggerate the claim to make a rhetorical point. Though I do experience taxation as extremely unfair, it is indeed nowhere close to the atrocities of slavery as it was implemented in the past (and is, unfortunately, still practiced in some parts of the world). While I do not wish to trivialize that suffering through my comparison, the fact that somewhere in place or time it was being practiced in a worse manner than it is today or here does not make it right.

While those articles sound very nice at a cursory glance, they are vague and thus lead to a strong political divide.

• act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood
  I have no idea what this means and it varies strongly across cultural boundaries
• Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person
  At what cost? It is one thing to protect someone from being murdered, enslaved, tortured or worse. It is another to ensure the survival if the person in question fails to cater for himself or herself.

Due to the vagueness there is a divide on how far to go on these issues. I do not have the answer, but you cannot create infinite debt for future generations to achieve safety for some. There is a practical boundary in the extremes. Not that I think we are anywhere close to those extremes.