Another alternate solution: accepting an item that's of lesser value

[sporkbox]

Before you grab your pitchforks, hear me out. ED has a lot of preorders to go through that he's doing purely because he cares about the community. The more we examine the situation, the worse it looks, however... and for some preorderers, it's not realistic to pay extra just to get the Pandora that was originally paid for. That's not ED or Craig's fault; it just is what it is. That said, Dragonbox sells more than just the Pandora. One must wonder if there are preorderers that would accept an item of lesser value from EvilDragon, even if only to say that they have something to show for the money that they spent years ago.

In September, Dragonbox is supposed to be getting new stock of the GCW Zero. It lacks a full keyboard and probably doesn't have as fleshed-out an OS as the Pandora, but it seems to emulate well and seems to have decent controls. As it's an item that EvilDragon already deals with, and it's cheaper to acquire than a Pandora, it should be one of the options for preorderers to choose from. It's not a perfect solution by a long shot, but the lost profits from a consolation GCW Zero are likely to be far less than handing a Pandora to the same preorderers who can't pay extra. These people would end up leaving the Pandora community as a result of this, but at least everyone would get something from the money they put in and the queue can be killed off faster by offering another device that is supposed to be shipping again soon.

So, what do you think?

 

[Doombox]

But where would the money come from to pay for the gcw-zeros ? Are you suggesting using the donation money to send them out?

 

[ShleeDragon]

This is something Craig could offer HIS preorders with his money.. Donations could help but I've said it before.

We need to offer less choices - not more. Quit feeding the monster undead queue from hell.

 

[Binky]

But where would the money come from to pay for the gcw-zeros ? Are you suggesting using the donation money to send them out?

The same place money to send out pandoras comes from - ED's profits + donations

We need to offer less choices - not more

Gah. You mean "fewer"

I do agree though. The current suggestions seem likely to confuse many preorderers who haven't followed the project carefully.

 

[aatu]

@Binky:
Well, a small confusion is inevitable, I'm afraid. Think about it this way: we are trying to offer some alternative ways to fulfill the order, be it cross-upgrade, another product, reverse-auction, cancellation of order, whatever. Any way we do this, it will require clear and definite explanation.

@Shlee:
I thought the recent community objective was to develop multitude of ideas for fulfilling as many pre-orders as possible (or the "undead queue", as you seem to be inclined to call it). I guess I missed the memo that said we're trying to systematically abandon it, instead...

 

[Timstertoo]

I don't think it's in ED's best interest to offer another item.

Basically ED is investing in the community and he could hopefully, as he would really deserve it, monetize that at a later point with his version of the P2. And any product he produces after that.

So he wants people to have Pandoras and stick around.

 

[aatu]

Yeah, I thought about the part of "sticking around". But I'm looking at it from the opposite direction, because I think that's actually one of the reasons this is a good idea, IMO.

Let's face it, Pandora was a joint-project. The people who are going to get shafted from this project won't stick around for a Pandora successor. It doesn't matter that ED isn't the one who shafted them. They've lost their money on the "Pandora project". While on the other hand, if they get something (anything) in return for their money and time, they will be more attentive in seeing whether the successor would be a worthwhile investment. Granted, they won't be as enthusiastic as the people who have gotten actual Pandoras, but they will still keep an eye on it, and the odds are better for actually purchasing it. Though bear in mind, this time they won't be willing to order unless it's straight from stock (you know, lesson learned and all that).

Though this is just my point of view, it might just as well be different for others.

And yes, I also considered the part about ED getting enough profit so that there could even BE a Pandora successor. So indeed, it's a complicated matter.

Ps. Hmm, this should have been a transparent poll, so we could see who voted what. Although, some people prefer to stay anonymous with their choice...

 

[xcen]

@Binky:


Well, a small confusion is inevitable, I'm afraid. Think about it this way: we are trying to offer some alternative ways to fulfill the order, be it cross-upgrade, another product, reverse-auction, cancellation of order, whatever. Any way we do this, it will require clear and definite explanation.


@Shlee:


I thought the recent community objective was to develop multitude of ideas for fulfilling as many pre-orders as possible (or the "undead queue", as you seem to be inclined to call it). I guess I missed the memo that said we're trying to systematically abandon it, instead...

Yeah Shlee's got his own agenda which he decided to valiantly carry out without anyone's support. He's the knight in shinning armor that will put an end to the pestilence of people who got ripped off and are looking for a solution! No more of thee, foul beast! Thou hast corrupt the future of the pandora project for too long, etc etc

boring stuff really, and really sad since, as you can see from the post, there's like 10 of us in here... sigh 

 

[ShleeDragon]

@Binky:


Well, a small confusion is inevitable, I'm afraid. Think about it this way: we are trying to offer some alternative ways to fulfill the order, be it cross-upgrade, another product, reverse-auction, cancellation of order, whatever. Any way we do this, it will require clear and definite explanation.


@Shlee:


I thought the recent community objective was to develop multitude of ideas for fulfilling as many pre-orders as possible (or the "undead queue", as you seem to be inclined to call it). I guess I missed the memo that said we're trying to systematically abandon it, instead...

Yeah Shlee's got his own agenda which he decided to valiantly carry out without anyone's support. He's the knight in shinning armor that will put an end to the pestilence of people who got ripped off and are looking for a solution! No more of thee, foul beast! Thou hast corrupt the future of the pandora project for too long, etc etc

boring stuff really, and really sad since, as you can see from the post, there's like 10 of us in here... sigh 

I want you to get a pandora. I don't want ED to pay for it. That's my agenda.

 

[ekianjo]

I don't want ED to pay for it

You're not alone in this position. And besides, it's not just ED paying for it, it's everyone else who is getting a new pandora out of their pocket.  That's punishing everyone for the mistake of a single person. 

People supporting this principle are only acting out of their own selfish interest, they just don't see the big picture and how their actions impact the whole community at large. And don't misinterpret what I say as "Ekianjo wants to get rid of the pre-orders" or stuff like that. I don't, but ED should play no role in it. Donations can. 

 

[ShleeDragon]

I think EDs plan is almost perfect. so Id expect him to proceed once he's finished securing the production of screens.. which I think is already done.

 

[Gring]

I don't want ED to pay for it

You're not alone in this position. And besides, it's not just ED paying for it, it's everyone else who is getting a new pandora out of their pocket.  That's punishing everyone for the mistake of a single person. 

People supporting this principle are only acting out of their own selfish interest, they just don't see the big picture and how their actions impact the whole community at large. And don't misinterpret what I say as "Ekianjo wants to get rid of the pre-orders" or stuff like that. I don't, but ED should play no role in it. Donations can. 

I used to agree with you, but then someone here reminded us that the developpement of the Pandora was supported by the preorders.

In a regular company, the preorders would have been a loan than would have to be included in the final price of the device.

Technically, no one but Craig's company owes these unlucky preorderers anything, I also agree that ED should be kept out of this, but please don't talk about "selfish interests", they DO have a *moral* claim.

 

[WizardStan]

developpement of the Pandora was supported by the preorders

I'm sorry, but I haven't heard any convincing arguments that if the pre-orders had been 500 fewer then production wouldn't have been completed. Some number was needed but I doubt that specific number was more than 4500. Anyone above that number didn't "help" support the Pandora in any special way, they could have not existed and it still would have happened, you were just along for the ride. Do not take this as a slight, it's the same with every other product on the planet: they need to sell a certain number to justify production, beyond which is welcome but unnecessary income.That isn't to say that you aren't "entitled" to what you paid for, just that with all the arguments that can be made for what you are owed, this isn't one of them. EvilDragon does not owe his success to these last 500 people any more than a popular restaurant owes its success to the last person to eat dinner; it was successful hours before this person even entered the building, and the Pandora was sufficiently successful long before these 500 came along.

 

[ekianjo]

but please don't talk about "selfish interests"

Take "selfish" as its litteral meaning here: pre-orders guys want to get their Pandora (and I can certainly understand that) but the way some people are asking for it is borderline inconsiderate of ED and of clients to come (who will have to pay the bill for them, basically).

 

[aatu]

developpement of the Pandora was supported by the preorders

I'm sorry, but I haven't heard any convincing arguments that if the pre-orders had been 500 fewer then production wouldn't have been completed. Some number was needed but I doubt that specific number was more than 4500. Anyone above that number didn't "help" support the Pandora in any special way, they could have not existed and it still would have happened, you were just along for the ride. Do not take this as a slight, it's the same with every other product on the planet: they need to sell a certain number to justify production, beyond which is welcome but unnecessary income.
That isn't to say that you aren't "entitled" to what you paid for, just that with all the arguments that can be made for what you are owed, this isn't one of them. EvilDragon does not owe his success to these last 500 people any more than a popular restaurant owes its success to the last person to eat dinner; it was successful hours before this person even entered the building, and the Pandora was sufficiently successful long before these 500 came along.

But consider that the project as a whole has been on the edge of the blade. Now imagine a small-scale project which lacks a minimum of 500x300€ liquidity from the get-go. That's 150000€. It's not that small of a hindrance. Well, only Craig and ED could answer this, but I'm pretty sure things would be quite a lot different if that large amount of cash reserve simply had gone missing.


And actually, the production wasn't "completed" even with the 500 units missing. That's the whole problem, they only managed to get it "started", because otherwise we wouldn't have a problem in the first place. Rest of the saga has been about trying to make up alternative ways to supply units to the unfortunate guys in the middle. Meaning the guys from 1st of October (note: less than a week after the initial pre-order started) to whatever date they stopped offering pre-orders, instead of "buy now, get one immediately" or "1GHz" -deals.


People, try to understand:


The 150000€ is money that would have been missing in OTHER STEPS OF THE PROJECT, TOO !


It is money that has been FREE on this project. We haven't received anything for it, it has been acting as full liquidity for the project. I know I can't explain this that sufficiently for everyone, as it requires some level of understanding of business economics, accounting, etc. But trust me, if that 150000€ would have just "not been there", this project would be in a lot deeper place than where it is at the moment.


I know some people will now think and say that the production costs were under-estimated and the pre-orderers got it below cost.


Newsflash: WE DIDN'T GET ANYTHING, so it couldn't have been "below cost". Whatever the 150000€ was used for, it hasn't been used to our benefit yet. It got lost to somewhere in the project, but it was something that helped the project go further, in any case. Maybe it was used for new components, maybe for wage, maybe for IP, maybe for bigger stock or cash liquidity... It doesn't matter, it was used FOR THE PROJECT.


I'm not saying we're the only reason this project is still alive. Every step counts. Pre-orderers, upgraders, investors, donators, etc. Can't even remember all the aspects. But understand that if even one of them "wasn't there", it could have ended the project. Or required an alternative recourse of action. And yes, we know ED isn't accountable to us.


Ps. Sorry for the caps, but I'm getting tired of people downplaying our input, so I'm trying the get the message through.

 

[WizardStan]

The 150000€ is money that would have been missing in OTHER STEPS OF THE PROJECT, TOO !

Just because it would be missing doesn't mean it was required. Your arguments are still only saying that money would be missing. In order to be convincing you need to prove that without the money the entire project would have failed years ago. Let's say there are exactly 500 pre-orders remaining. Would there have been enough money if there had been 501? Would the project have failed if there were only 499? If it wouldn't have failed if we were only short 499 then that means that one person was superfluous, ED does not owe his success to that one person. Then work backwards, what if there were only 498? Would 149400 have been enough to keep production going? Where's the actual breaking point? I'm not convinced that even one of the remaining 500 was necessary for production to continue. Upgrades and 1Ghz units are what kept things going.

I'm not saying we're the only reason this project is still alive

Of course not, but you (or someone else) is saying that EvilDragon somehow owes his success to you when I counter that there is in fact no evidence that the project wouldn't have survived without you. There are enough arguments in favour of trying to get pre-orders their due without resorting to any that cannot be empirically proven.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

NO!!

2 different consoles all together...like saying would you like the Volkswagon because we cannot deliver you the Mercedes??....sorry VW lovers.  

Seems like a cop out to me to offer this.

 

[aatu]

@WizardStan:

... wait, what?

I think there's a misunderstanding of some sort (or maybe I'm misunderstanding your message?):
The way I see it, we are still too short on the project as a whole. Sure, if we count the remaining pre-orderers as being outsiders to the rest of the project, then yes, we "completed" the production. But as of now, we're still 500 units short, from my point of view.

Hmm, imagine two points in time:
Point A:
There is lots of money collected by pre-orders

Point B:
Project has to collect donations to gather enough funds to supply the remaining orders

By default, to get from A to B, this means the funds ran out at some point (actually, they ran out a few times, I think). So the extra cash was indeed required to get here, unless that same amount of money was to be collected in some other way. And there were other ways, like upgrades and the sorts, which we both mentioned in our previous posts. But even after those, we still haven't reached the end of the line. So by definition, all of the pre-order money was VITAL to reach even this point.

The project is still playing catch-up, so it's actually safe to say that every step has been not only vital, but even now they haven't yet been enough to counter all the obstacles and mistakes the project has encountered. So no, there hasn't been anyone "superfluous" as of date, at least with regards to providing more money.

First of all, you have to think of the pre-order money as a loan to the project, as that's indeed what it was supposed to be, money that was supposed to be paid back, in the form of a unit. The investors' money is also loan money. That money is supposed to be paid back in cash. Both of those cash infusions thus created debt, as they were only loan money.

Look, I'll draw a graph for you:


Now imagine if that 150000€ is taken away from that line. Wait, no need to imagine, I'll demonstrate:


Unfortunately, unless they were ordering parts without having any cash, they would have had to come up with a way to collect the missing 150000€ first, a point of time which would have come quite a bit earlier. Thus the latter part of the red graph would have to be devised again. And unless they got it completely for free, then to get here, the project would now have an extra debt of 150000€, from whatever plan/arrangement they used to get it. While on the other hand, currently the 150000€ is just debt that simply won't be paid, from the looks of it. At least not fully.

Furthermore, isn't it contradictionary to say "upgrades and 1Ghz units are what kept things going", but the pre-order money didn't? Can you understand that the 150000€ has been pure cash reserve, which has been used up at some point? Only after it ran out, were they forced to find the other means for further funding of development and production. And I can't stress this enough: it hasn't been used to our benefit yet, it has been purely EXTRA for the whole project. Yes, the upgrades and 1GHz money got more air to breathe for the project, but those people have already been "paid back" with units. The remaining pre-orderers before them haven't. Or do you somehow disagree with this notion?

And like I said, we (or at least most of us) don't think ED owes us. He isn't accountable to us, we get it. But we do think we were (among other factors) a critical part of this project. And we aren't downplaying others' contribution, but we'd appreciate ours wouldn't be, either.

Regarding "proof":
I could try to interpolate from the available information the approximate time at which the funds would have run out if it weren't for the extra 150000€, but that's quite a lot of work just to "prove" something, so I think I'll pass. No, actually, if someone wants to provide all the income and expense amounts and dates for them, I can do that. But not gonna scourge the forums just for the sake of it, myself. And I don't think the exact amounts have even been made public, in any case.

But then again, and I might be mistaken, but I think even ED himself has multiple times thanked all the contributors (pre-orderers included) for the survival of the whole project. So I don't think the burden of proof is on my court, after all.

Or if ED happens to read this thread, maybe he could give his own direct opinion, to end the arguments with regards to this, once and for all? Because this is indeed something that has already been brought up way too many times, recently.

 

[Timstertoo]

I really wish we (as in including me) wouldn't nitpick about who is more valuable then who and if the Pandora would've been there without the original pre orders or not and just try to come together as a community. This whole apartheid thing that's going on is getting on my tits.

Can't we just say that everyone is allowed to sit anywhere they want in the bloody bus and we'll try to chip in for tickets for the guys that are out of cash but unfortunately there are not an unlimited amount of seats?

Some people believed in an idea and put up money when there was nothing and were instrumental in making this happen. Some people put up a hell of a lot more cash for a product that has been sent instantly and have been instrumental in this project still being alive. End of the day we're all interdependant, especially if we want to move forward and do even cooler stuff in the future.

The situation sucks and no one active on the board is to blame, which sucks even more as lots of us, and I've been no better then the worst of you, are looking for someone to vent on. But the key to the future is trying to keep as many of us aboard. And trying to desperately find more value for one sort of Pandora user over another just isn't going to help in the long run. It's just going to cause resentment and spite. On both sides. And there shouldn't even be sides amongst people who love the same gadget. 

Can't we just see how things pan out for ED in the coming months with the plans he's set in motion in agreement with the investors? He has said there is a limit and if ED is as consistent and meticulous as he's been before he'll stick to that. Until that time let's try to have a positive vibe as the chance of people willing to pull their wallet one more time if they feel wanted and appreciated is a lot higher then when others are trying to reason how they are of lesser importance (not specifying pre orders or latecomers here as the arguments have gone both ways)

I myself haven't been any better so I'll make the effort too to post positive stuff only and create the enviroment to maximise on the last push to get as many original pre orders as possible a Pandora.

:wub:   

 

[aatu]

... Ok, sure. I'll try to be nicer from now on.

Bunnies FTW !