American Express

[EvilDragon]

Well, it's a different situation here.
You can't dispute any money after 60 days, that's right.
But that also means the money HAS to arrive at the merchants side and the merchant is fraud.

However, the merchant (in this case craig) didn't get the money - so this is something the bank and AMEX have to resolve.
If craig didn't get the money, they have no right taking it from your account - that would be theft.

So they either have to make sure YOU or CRAIG gets the money. Everything else would be most likely illegal, neither AMEX nor the bank has the right to keep that money.

 

[jakshep2]

I don't mean to pick holes, but you made a typo in the blog.

Hellollo!

 

[plopperz]

I don't mean to pick holes, but you made a typo in the blog.

Hellollo!

That's the joke. Watch the previous video.
:rolleyes:

 

[mali]

:lol:

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

I don't mean to pick holes, but you made a typo in the blog.

Hellollo!

Fuck off, this is a serious problem here. I received materials to fill out for my dispute. I have to take this shit to a notary? You've got to be kidding me. This is a damn headache, and if I don't get my money back from somewhere, there will be legal action. I promise. Shame on Craig for *still* not addressing this problem fully. Like I've already mentioned, for another forum user to have to bring this to our attention, this is a big problem.

 

[j.pickens]

At the point which OpenPandora has gotten all the refunds and payments (if any) out of the bad bank, and only the Amex accounts are messed up, Craigx should release the bank information to the affected Amex pre-order people. That way, the Amex claims will be able to address the fact that the bank is holding the money in limbo. Without that information, it is difficult for the Amex account pre-orderers to make their case for the circumstances.

 

[lutchann]

Well, it's a different situation here.
You can't dispute any money after 60 days, that's right.
But that also means the money HAS to arrive at the merchants side and the merchant is fraud.

However, the merchant (in this case craig) didn't get the money - so this is something the bank and AMEX have to resolve.
If craig didn't get the money, they have no right taking it from your account - that would be theft.

So they either have to make sure YOU or CRAIG gets the money. Everything else would be most likely illegal, neither AMEX nor the bank has the right to keep that money.

According to Amex's records, the original purchase completed successfully and the merchant has the money. They have no record of any credit attempt made by the merchant to reverse that transaction.

If there's a problem in the system somewhere between Amex and Craig, there's nothing I can do about that. I have no legal standing to seek resolution from any intermediary bank or processing company. The intermediaries are acting under contract to the merchant, not to me. From a legal standpoint, it's solely the responsibility of the merchant to refund my money if they're not going to deliver the product.

I was aware when I paid in October that there was a risk I could lose my money--after all, OpenPandora might have declared bankruptcy and closed up shop before delivering any products--but I didn't expect to be in a minority of customers whose payment was "lost in the system". If the funds are held by Craig's bank indefinitely or seized by the bank or Amex as damages for breach of contract, I don't have much hope Craig could come up with money from elsewhere to refund everyone.

This is a damn headache, and if I don't get my money back from somewhere, there will be legal action.

No, there's not. You're not going to initiate an international legal dispute to recover $350. Fortunately for you, though, Amex will almost certainly give you your money back since you filed the inquiry in time and the merchant clearly never filled the order. Many of us are not so lucky...

 

[mali]

The Amex situation is still ongoing. We don't have a good explanation as to why the bank will not refund those orders. This situation passed "unacceptable" over a month ago and is now downright surreal. We are doing everything we can to find a solution, and as soon as we have one we'll let you all know.

This is the latest official announcement regarding the Amex situation. TaG already asked about an update a few days ago, but got no answer. I think it's time now, to have an official statement. Someone who is affected should phone openpandora again and ask for an official answer or PM Craig. We should have something official to put in the blog. There might be more Amex users who don't frequent the boards, who deserve info, too. A solution to the Amex problem should have TOP PRIORITY in my opinion.

 

[TaG]

Agreed. This is bad for Pandora, bad for business and bad for reputations. Craigix needs to address this soon. And hopefully Chip will get involved and salvag any public relations goodwill that it is still possible to rescue.

 

[EvilDragon]

According to Amex's records, the original purchase completed successfully and the merchant has the money. They have no record of any credit attempt made by the merchant to reverse that transaction.

And this is the weird thing.

a) Craig's bank froze his complete account last year October, as so many credit card orders came at once. He didn't have access to the money, and, what's even worse, not even the money he had on that account before (which was meant to be used for further development).
B) After quite a few debates with his bank, there was only one option: The bank will refund ALL credit card orders and unfreeze his account.

Craig couldn't refund any CC money - as the BANK ITSELF wanted to do this. And he never could get the credit card money, as the account was frozen BEFORE he could even access it and unfrozen AFTER they removed the CC orders.
So, the AMEX money clearly is not in craigs account but either somehwere in the bank or at AMEX... whether the bank did not refund those or AMEX didn't recognize they got it back, the money is something there inbetween. And that would be theft.

I agree though that craig might need to penetrate the bank to find out what's happening there.
I just sent him an eMail with a link to this thread, as he's very busy at the moment and might not read it.

 

[ben_dash]

So, the AMEX money clearly is not in craigs account but either somehwere in the bank or at AMEX... whether the bank did not refund those or AMEX didn't recognize they got it back, the money is something there inbetween. And that would be theft.

I agree though that craig might need to penetrate the bank to find out what's happening there.
I just sent him an eMail with a link to this thread, as he's very busy at the moment and might not read it.

I can appreciate that things are VERY busy but when Craig gets a chance he really should look into filing a small claim against the bank. It's simple to do, if I remember correctly is very inexpensive, you don't use lawyers, and I know UK banks suddenly grease wheels that were otherwise mysteriously completely rusted when the summons notice arrives on their doorstep.

IANAL but it sounds like Craig has a reasonable case to get the bank to either refund the AMEX funds or provide Craig access to them, the bank can't simply keep the AMEX funds as that would be theft.

 

[Chip]

I can appreciate that things are VERY busy but when Craig gets a chance he really should look into filing a small claim against the bank. It's simple to do, if I remember correctly is very inexpensive, you don't use lawyers, and I know UK banks suddenly grease wheels that were otherwise mysteriously completely rusted when the summons notice arrives on their doorstep.
I've brought this up with him before. Things are very different in the UK. It is very expensive and time consuming to file a lawsuit there compared to the US, and the laws are stacked heavily on the side of the bank. OpenPandora just does not have the resources to file a suit against the bank. Even if we won (which we would, eventually) it would end up costing more than those orders are worth.

 

[TaG]

B) After quite a few debates with his bank, there was only one option: The bank will refund ALL credit card orders and unfreeze his account.
Is this the first time someone official has confirmed that ALL cc orders needed to be refunded? Previously we kept getting told SOME. I'm not complaining her guys, but this sort of inconsistency is why some are so sceptical.

Things are very different in the UK. It is very expensive and time consuming to file a lawsuit there compared to the US, and the laws are stacked heavily on the side of the bank. OpenPandora just does not have the resources to file a suit against the bank. Even if we won (which we would, eventually) it would end up costing more than those orders are worth.
Two points: a one-of legal letter might work wonders and not cost a fortune; if you were to raise a case you would probably get awarded costs but there are/were other avenues that could have been explored, like going to the banking ombudsman.

Anyway, the meat of this post is to quote Chip's update, for those that come here and don't see that thread, Chip has specifically answerred the Amex concerns and put a timescale to it:

We are meeting with the bank this week to fix the Amex situation. They cannot simply sit on the money forever, and we're not accepting any more of their stall tactics. If the bank simply refuses to rectify the situation, there is a backup plan. Anybody who paid for a Pandora will get one, no matter what the bank does. One way or another, this situation will be remedied this week.

 

[ben_dash]

I can appreciate that things are VERY busy but when Craig gets a chance he really should look into filing a small claim against the bank. It's simple to do, if I remember correctly is very inexpensive, you don't use lawyers, and I know UK banks suddenly grease wheels that were otherwise mysteriously completely rusted when the summons notice arrives on their doorstep.
I've brought this up with him before. Things are very different in the UK. It is very expensive and time consuming to file a lawsuit there compared to the US, and the laws are stacked heavily on the side of the bank. OpenPandora just does not have the resources to file a suit against the bank. Even if we won (which we would, eventually) it would end up costing more than those orders are worth.

I happen to be in the USA now but I am actually a Brit, and people in my family have filed small claims against a couple of banks in the past couple of years and won in both cases.

Filing a small claim is a very cheap, simple, and easy to do; you can do it online or by post. There are no lawyers invloved and no jury and, often, the case is settled out of court entirely.

Here's the instructions how to do it:

www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm

Often the bank will stall until it receives the summons and then, having realised that you are serious, finally does what it should have done in the first place so it doesn't have to go to court.

 

[salasq]

Any legal action will have to be delayed until after Pandoras are shipping, as it'll strengthen the team's position more than a little.

 

[Chip]

B) After quite a few debates with his bank, there was only one option: The bank will refund ALL credit card orders and unfreeze his account.
Is this the first time someone official has confirmed that ALL cc orders needed to be refunded? Previously we kept getting told SOME. I'm not complaining her guys, but this sort of inconsistency is why some are so sceptical.Craig had processed and withdrawn the money for some orders before the bank shut everything down. These orders did not have to be refunded.

 

[RajTakhar]

thanks for update chip

 

[TaG]

B) After quite a few debates with his bank, there was only one option: The bank will refund ALL credit card orders and unfreeze his account.
Is this the first time someone official has confirmed that ALL cc orders needed to be refunded? Previously we kept getting told SOME. I'm not complaining her guys, but this sort of inconsistency is why some are so sceptical.Craig had processed and withdrawn the money for some orders before the bank shut everything down. These orders did not have to be refunded.
Thanks for the clarification Chip.

 

[lutchann]

So, the AMEX money clearly is not in craigs account but either somehwere in the bank or at AMEX... whether the bank did not refund those or AMEX didn't recognize they got it back, the money is something there inbetween. And that would be theft.

As I remember from looking at this stuff years ago, merchant agreements (at least in the US) allow the bank to grab a big chunk of money from your account or your incoming payments as a "security deposit" at any time if there is any suspicious activity related to your transactions, such as having more than a very low number of charge-backs. They are allowed to hold onto this deposit for some months, and can also recover from it administrative fees and even their own costs to investigate the situation. That's where I had expected the Amex money went, but the bank should have told Craig that's what happened. If the bank said that all the orders were being refunded, including the Amex ones, it sounds like it's a different problem.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear the Pandora team has promised to do the right thing and fulfill orders even for Amex users whose money is held up. I'll keep an eye on my account and post again here if a credit shows up.

 

[Bronek]

Two points: a one-of legal letter might work wonders and not cost a fortune; if you were to raise a case you would probably get awarded costs but there are/were other avenues that could have been explored, like going to the banking ombudsman.

IANAL, but I am quite sure this would be the right course of action.
1. former bank made a commitment to refund all customers
2. it failed to do so
3. it must either deliver on its promise, or pass money to the merchant. Otherwise fraud is about to take place.

I checked at hmcourts-service.gov.uk and ideed it seems that small claims court might be appropriate, even for relatively large amounts of money, but solicitor need to be involved for anything above £5000 (which most likely all AMEX orders together exceed)

This probably means that Craig will have to collect and provide data for all the orders which the bank failed to refund, which will take time.