6 buttons AB/CD/XY and 4 shoulder buttons?

[comradekingu]

LU U  UR 1           1 AY  (Y)  YB
L     R 2   nub nub 2 (A)      (
LD D  DR 3          3 AX  (X)  XB

What do you think about this? Buttons in the very middle are awkward to reach, since you press down with the side of the thumb. Feels unnatural

 

[Caine]

If it can be made to fit comfortably I'm all for it.

More buttons is always better, but I don't think the unit should increase too much in size.

In my opinion one additional keyboard button in width is acceptable, but two is pushing it.

 

[God Ginrai]

The Pandora has four buttons... and two sholder buttons..

I think everybody wants 4 shoulders but how about 6 front buttons?

I don't know how I missed this topic earlier! I was part of the 6 buttons vs. 4 shoulder buttons ware all the way back in the "Our New Machine" topic. I would be extremely happy if we changed the 4-button setup to 6 buttons.

Changing 4 buttons to 6 is not a zero cost operation. It requires changing the size and position of the buttons, not to mention that with more buttons available people will tend to use those buttons leading to the increased thumb travel I mentioned. That last point probably won't come into play much on something niche like the Pandora, most likely even with 6 buttons most stuff would stick to 4, but it is still something to keep in mind. Arguably that might make it worse: two extra buttons that don't serve any purpose outside of fighting games.

So, can having 6 face buttons as opposed to 4 face buttons and 2 extra triggers be argued to be worth the associated costs? I don't play Street Fighter and so far that seems to be the definitive argument, so to me it's not a very good trade. Are there other specific benefits to having 6 face buttons that I'm not seeing?

First of all, we may not have to make the buttons smaller. Seeing as how EvilDragon is going to have to use a larger screen in the Pandora, that gives us a little more horizontal room to work with in this clamshell, don't you think?

As for benefits to a 6-button layout... the Street Fighter fans have already made it very clear that it is better to have such a layout for playing fighters, but let me offer you some other things that a 6-button layout makes easier:

• Sega Genesis - The Sega Genesis had a 6-button pad, which would feel more natural with the 6-button layout. Games that only used the 3-button pad would be unaffected.
• N64 - The A and B buttons plus the C-buttons were effectively a 6-button layout. Having a 6-button layout would make this much more intuitive and easy to play
• Sega Saturn - The Sega Saturn had a 6 face buttons and 2 shoulder buttons. It would be pretty disappointing if the Pyra possibly enabled Saturn emulation only to have subpar controls for it.

I'm sure some Neogeo stuff should be in my list, but since I have never played on said devices, I can't really comment on them.
And here's another question, WizardStan: Would increasing the width of the device really be that bad? Even if we increased the device width a little bit to add buttons for the 6-button layout, I don't see how that would be detrimental to the device. If anything, it may give us more room on the front and back of the device for switches and ports we didn't have room for. (WiFi on-off switch, etc.)

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

Would increasing the width of the device really be that bad?

Not really, as long as the other two directions remain more or less the same it remains pocketable. Increasing the width too much will eventually make it unwieldy but I'm sure there's a reasonable amount we could go.

As for benefits to a 6-button layout... <snip>

I'm still a little concerned about two extra buttons that will either be used too much or not at all. Imagine a desktop environment, what would you use these two extra buttons for?

 

[God Ginrai]

As for benefits to a 6-button layout... <snip>

I'm still a little concerned about two extra buttons that will either be used too much or not at all. Imagine a desktop environment, what would you use these two extra buttons for?

Super, for one. AFAIK, that's currently not available using the current Pandora's default keymap. Also, they could be used as modifier sticky/lock buttons to make key chords easier. That's just what I can come up with off the top of my head. I'm sure the avid people over in the keymap topic would be able to come up with more examples.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

Ah, hmm... or insert/delete, to round out the map. No more problematic fn-bkspc.

As for layout, adding two extra buttons, this entire time I've been imagining them on the same side, like we had the original four and then stick two more on top, or on the side, or the bottom. What about this?

    (Y)  Z
(A)      (
C    (X)

The A/B/X/Y remain where they are, the A/Y "row" gets extended with Z to the right and up a bit and the X/B "row" gets extended to the left and down a bit with C. Names are purely academic, we can (and will) argue about them later; the important thing is that we have this existing, familiar diamond setup, and to that we are adding a button in the upper right and one in the lower left which, combined, form the 2x3 preferred by fighting gamers. I think that could work.

 

[God Ginrai]

I can kind of imagine that you are going for. I'd like to see it in a more visual mockup to know if it would work out ok. It doesn't sound too bad, but I have concerns about how confusing it might be for N64 emulation where you want a diamond for the C-buttons.

Also, insert and delete also sounds like good options for keymap purposes.

-God Ginrai

 

[SeeThruHead]

Yes! 6 Face buttons is a must.

 

[Klumpen]

You simply cannot play Street Fighter, Darkstalkers, X-Men, Marvel vs. Capcom, X-men vs. Street Fighter, Marvel Super Heroes etc... properly without 6 face buttons.

 

[SeeThruHead]

Also would be amazing for n64, sega genesis, and having 2 quick access buttons is always a boon for emulator functions.

 

[Klumpen]

And we could have the whole keyblock with

"insert, pos1, pg-up, del, end, pg-down"

this way.

 

[Morn]

As for the L2/R2, I wonder if it's possible to hove them on the bottom, like the iControlPad (rightmost pic in the last but one row). It might not be the most comfortable design in the world but still much better that Q/P mapping on current Pandora.

 

[_wb_]

I'm not against 6 buttons, but I agree with WizardStan here, I think it's important that ABXY stay where they are, that is, in a cross shape exactly like the dpad. Sometimes ABXY are used as an additional dpad, e.g. for shooting in different directions. Also it makes a lot of sense to have Home/End/PgUp/PgDn arranged in that way, even more than on a regular keyboard where End is below Home. So I don't want to give that up.
 
So that means this is the starting point: (each "cell" in this drawing is supposed to be a square, so the buttons are arranged on a 3x3 grid)


| Y |
---+---+---
A | | B
---+---+---
| X |

Moving outside of the grid too much brings us in nub or keyboard territory, so that's a bit tricky. So while the street fighters want two rows of three buttons, something like this is probably not a good idea:
 


| | Y |
---+---+---+---
| A | | B
---+---+---+---
C | | X |
---+---+---+---
| Z | |

 
I think WizardStan's proposal is something like this:


---+---+-Z-
| Y |
---+---+---
A | | B
---+---+---
| X |
-C-+---+--
 
What about something like this:


 Z | Y |
---+---+---
 A |   | B
---+---+---
   | X | C

where C and Z are slightly smaller or have a somewhat different shape than the 4 "main" buttons.
In this layout, C could be mapped to backspace and Z to delete (insert with Fn).
 
Or... why not go for 8 buttons?
 


1 | Y | 2
---+---+---
A | | B
---+---+---
3 | X | 4

(I'm using 1,2,3,4 because I wouldn't know what letters to put on them, maybe better keep them blank)

Again, the extra buttons 1,2,3,4 are a bit smaller than the main buttons A,B,X,Y. That way you can view it as a dpad with dedicated diagonals, or two horizontal rows of three buttons plus A and B, or two vertical rows of buttons plus X and Y, or whatever.

In this layout, I would map 1 to insert, 2 to backspace, 3 to delete and 4 to (numeric keypad) enter. Enter? Or maybe something else. Enter would make sense for all those menus where you use arrows (maybe plus home/end/pgup/pgdn for rapid scrolling) to navigate and enter to confirm -- for those applications, it's nice if you don't need to move your hand down to the keyboard enter.

 

[PokeParadox]

I like the last suggestion.

 

[_wb_]

Here's a keyboard proposal based on the 8-button action buttons:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15275-unofficial-pyra-keyboard-layoutjanuary-9th-2014/page-10#entry305018

If both Enter and Backspace can be done with action buttons, it frees up a column of keys on the keyboard, which helps to keep the keys wide enough.

 

[pmprog]

I like that layout, except for where you've put Enter. Not sure about that bit. And what's the LMeta key?

I wonder what it would be like to have 8 keys instead of a D-PAD?

 

[_wb_]

I like that layout, except for where you've put Enter. Not sure about that bit. And what's the LMeta key?


I wonder what it would be like to have 8 keys instead of a D-PAD?

Left meta key - it's the "windows key" on normal keyboards, which could be used as another modifier key besides shift, alt and ctrl. E.g. so you can map Meta+E to €, Meta+T to "open a terminal", or whatever. Or you can use it as the Compose key. Whatever you like best.

 

[pmprog]

So that's what the current Pandora key is. So what would your Pyra menu key be - the keyboard "menu" button (sits next to the right windows key)?

Would you not keep the Pyra button the same as the Pandora button for compatibility?

 

[_wb_]

So that's what the current Pandora key is. So what would your Pyra menu key be - the keyboard "menu" button (sits next to the right windows key)?


Would you not keep the Pyra button the same as the Pandora button for compatibility?

Are you sure that the current Pandora key maps to the "windows key"? I think it doesn't. I think it already maps to "menu".

Anyway, yes, it should be mapped the same way for compatibility.

But let's not derail this thread too much -- what do others think about my 8 action buttons proposal?

 

[WizardStan]

I can't find a reason to complain about the 4 smaller buttons.

They're not interfering with the original 4, not forcing them to change shape or move at all, and that was my primary concern.

It's up to the fighting game people, what do y'all think? Does the way they're added seem like they could be used for the 2x3 games? Or is the fact that they're smaller and not strictly in a line going to be a problem?