15€ Pandora

[Exophase]

Root of what idea? Why? What wouldn't be an argument?

The idea that a phone plus iCP2 package is attractive vs a Pandora 2 hinges on the the former being cheaper than the latter. If you take that away the premise makes a lot less sense.

 

[Binky]

The P1 is nearing the limit of pocketable size


The P2 is billed to be smaller


A clamshell iCP2 clamp would be huge and ugly - no thankyou

 

[sswam]

There's no way they could keep a custom Linux software stack straight between multiple phones

The stock x86 Linux kernel supports most x86 hardware, and the stock ARM kernel supports a lot of ARM hardware. With a bit of help, OPT could put together an operating system that is portable among several major phones. A certain level of competence and forethought would be needed, e.g. making a complete snapshot of the distribution you are basing your operating system on, including source code.

Something you have to consider is that OPT would never gain a special relationship with phone vendors

Craig has stated that due to agreements with another party, Android is not optional, it is required that we support it. I suggest that other party is a phone company.

So unless you think your setup offers NO disadvantage at all there's no point talking about phasing out what Pandora 2 could be for it when both can coexist.

My setup includes a powerful phone, an iCP2, a pandora-style clamshell case, and a peripheral interface module. The interface module includes a hifi audio amp, full size USB, 2 x SD card slots, etc, and can communicate with the main phone using USB OTG and audio cables. Battery supply could be augmented. So yes, my setup offers no disadvantage, and many major advantages: additional features, lower price, and the economy of not buying separate phone / controller / pandora.


The cost of the interface module and case would not be so great as to offset the price advantage of a modern phone versus a 4-years-ago Pandora.


I know if someone else were proposing that we base Pandora 2 on a stock phone, I might be sceptical. It seems to go against the "do it yourself" hacker attitude. But practically speaking, there would be huge advantages with this, over anything OPT can build from the ground up. Not least the modularity - in future, I can rip out the core phone module, and replace it with the latest and greatest phone. The perfect controller, perfect audio, perfect interfaces, and lovely case remain. That is modularity, and that is what I expect OPT to do if they have a clue. There is also the massive advantage that we don't have to build the core module, so production will be much simpler and less will go wrong.

Good luck finding a 4200mAh+ battery on a phone.

We can supplement the battery up to Pandora standards, this is not a big deal.

And why apply a comparison between Pandora and an old phone to Pandora 2? The big "feature" they're touting for Pandora 2 is that it won't end up with years behind hardware.

I don't see how they can keep up with the phones, unless they base it directly on a phone or other mass-produced product such as a rasp-pi.


I don't expect Pandora 2 to be as fast as the best phones when it is released. And Pandora 1GHz although more expensive than current phones, is less than half as powerful in CPU / GPU grunt.

DREDD : I will NEVER buy myself a phone

I agree, the loc-int system is worrying. Big brother is logging your movements, all the time. But, you could buy a phone-based Pandora and run it offline, never using the cell-net features, and it would still be cheaper than a "made in germany" custom Pandora computer. And you could use the GPS, etc, which does not reveal your location to the cell company.


Apart from the current price advantage, a phone-based Pandora would also have additional useful features and advantages such as:


- phone calls


- cellular internet


- GPS


- compass


- accelerometer


- being an integrated device, more compact than having separate phone and pandora


- modular, can upgrade CPU / screen / phone component without changing controller / interface components, and vice versa


- modular, can use phone component separately, can use controller component separately


Also, many people like to have a cell phone, did you notice?


In order to compete, the cost of a non-phone Pandora + the cost of a phone, needs to be less than the cost of a phone + iCP2 + interface module. I.e. assuming you would like to have the same smart-phone in both cases, the non-Phone Pandora needs to be cheaper than the iCP2 + interface module. It is not possible that the two devices Pandora + phone will be cheaper than a single modular device phone + iCP2 + interface module + case.

The P1 is nearing the limit of pocketable size


The P2 is billed to be smaller


A clamshell iCP2 clamp would be huge and ugly - no thankyou

Nah, they can do it. Phone + iCP2 is much thinner than the Pandora.


And an integrated phone / Pandora is always going to be more pocketable than two separate devices!

 

[Exophase]

The stock x86 Linux kernel supports most x86 hardware, and the stock ARM kernel supports a lot of ARM hardware. With a bit of help, OPT could put together an operating system that is portable among several major phones. A certain level of competence and forethought would be needed, e.g. making a complete snapshot of the distribution you are basing your operating system on, including source code.

This is about way more than just ARM support. I've seen enough half broken hacked Linux distros on devices that didn't officially support it to seriously question your confidence. And this was for SoCs with better than average support. I bought one of those cheap Android HDMI dongles expecting there to be Linux on it, but it wasn't there because the vendor wasn't supplying it (this is the Rockchip based one). My Touchbook also has pretty half-assed distros running on it. The super cheap yet highish volume devices are prime target for Linux hacks to find their way on - not phones that people are much more interested in using as phones.


Pandora itself needed quite a bit of development effort to get to the point it's at now (which Craig still derides). This support came from people like notaz who may not be so enthusiastic to offer if it's just for an effort that involves rebranding phones. Don't get me wrong, OPT could pull it off if they pick a good SoC and control the hardware, and are just doing it for their device. Doing it for some big collection of devices is much less realistic.

Craig has stated that due to agreements with another party, Android is not optional, it is required that we support it. I suggest that other party is a phone company.

Which of course made no sense, until ED revealed that really this meant that the SoC vendor (TI) merely said that they can only provide support for Android and not Linux. Not that they'd be contractually obligated to put Android on their devices to buy the SoC. Extending this already bizarre theory to include a phone vendor dictating the terms an SoC manufacturer can sell their chip under is totally out there.

My setup includes a powerful phone, an iCP2, a pandora-style clamshell case, and a peripheral interface module. The interface module includes a hifi audio amp, full size USB, 2 x SD card slots, etc, and can communicate with the main phone using USB OTG and audio cables. Battery supply could be augmented. So yes, my setup offers no disadvantage, and many major advantages: additional features, lower price, and the economy of not buying separate phone / controller / pandora.

This is your setup? Because you keep saying iCP2 + phone but now it involves a whole bunch of other stuff. And can work with several different phones? This totally throws your pricing ideas out of whack and I question how much this can make sense mechanically, much less be "just as good."


Some people don't WANT to use their phone as their Pandora, they want to have two separate devices. Especially if the gaming version involves hooking a bunch of crap to their phone that they would not normally want on it when they just want to use it as a phone. And using it as a phone is going to be annoying when it's running Pandora Linux. It sounds like quite a procedure just to get your phone in and out of all this gear.


We get it. The phone offers things the Pandora doesn't. And that's why it'll sell a hundred times more. When you're only interested in capturing a tiny fraction of the market share the rules are different. And even if something might look as good on paper you have to deal with the psychological hurdle of convincing people that some amalgamation of several devices repurposed in some strange way.

The cost of the interface module and case would not be so great as to offset the price advantage of a modern phone versus a 4-years-ago Pandora.

I'm curious why you think a Pandora has to be so expensive but that OPT would be perfectly willing to sell this interface setup for next to nothing. Especially if these are the parts that'll break.


Unlike with Pandora, Craig et al probably have some aspirations of making the iCP line a more mainstream peripheral. But your idea of adding all this other crap to the phone, including clamshell hinges and audio amps and dual full-sized SD slot is bringing in a bunch of stuff that'll never be mainstream. But that still needs to have molds made etc. Unless I'm grossly underestimating demand for a complex kit that turns your phone into a laptop they're going to be looking at pretty big NRE for low volume, meaning this kit won't cost $80 like you seem to think but probably more realistically $200+. If they're going to have to design a bunch of low-volume hardware I'd much rather they made a full console, so I don't have to pay their low volume markup AND the phone's luxury margins (plus cost for all the phone stuff - radio hardware, antennas, and expensive certification I don't need).


You keep repeating that your way will be guaranteed cheaper. I'd like a more detailed explanation why than "they've got volume" (but just for some of the parts). Like an actual realistic cost comparison of components. A lot of the reasons Pandora is so expensive, aside from having a bunch of problems that kept it from even attaining the volume it could have and forcing new orders to help pay for outstanding debt that goes beyond the cost of making their Pandoras, is to support the form factor. Custom LCD cables, hinges, and casing with a bunch of parts add up.

We can supplement the battery up to Pandora standards, this is not a big deal.

Wow, you just keep tacking on more and more stuff to this hypothetical device... So you're proposing something that contains the phone's battery, the iCP2's battery, AND a third party added on somehow? Because none of those devices will let you put in a larger battery on their own. Your idea sounds like a very big deal to me.

I don't see how they can keep up with the phones, unless they base it directly on a phone or other mass-produced product such as a rasp-pi.

I don't expect Pandora 2 to be as fast as the best phones when it is released. And Pandora 1GHz although more expensive than current phones, is less than half as powerful in CPU / GPU grunt.

Pandora has been plagued with unusual problems that have kept them locked into struggling to provide volume they purchased over a span of years. Using Pandora 1's development history as a model for Panodra 2 is basically admitting defeat - if that's the attitude they shouldn't even bother. A properly priced and funded project can actually afford to do better with the hardware. I agree that it won't be able to keep up with the high end phones but it shouldn't be that far behind if some SoC vendor actually agrees to sell to them. That IMO will be the biggest hurdle and is the most compelling reason to go with your idea (which I still would never actually support, apparently neither would many others, but oh well)

 

[sswam]

Ok, well I think it is a good idea ...


I would happily talk to my Pandora as a hands-free phone, and it would be easy enough to remove and insert the phone module.


It's possible to run android and regular Linux at the same time, off the same kernel, so we could use it as an android phone while also running a full Linux userland. http://elinux.org/images/5/5c/ELC-AlwaysInnovating-Gentil.pdf


With a decent amount of RAM, that would work very well.

 

[Klumpen]

Even if they are well paid, I don't care, it's not as we are contributing to exploitations of chinese workers when we buy chinese products.

Ignorance is bliss...

 

[Inferno's Reaper]

So just to make sure I'm clear, someone thinks simultaneously running 2-4 operating systems on 1 device is a good idea rather than just an unreasonable waste of resources which will in turn demand the need for even more powerful hardware, as well as additional built in storage memory, to make it function?

 

[diligentcircle]

My understanding is that phones, as they are now, are extremely unfriendly to free software. It's already a turn-off to me if the Pandora 2 is as bad as the Pandora is in this respect (no WiFi or 3D without nonfree software); if it depends on devices that (from my understanding) often actively work against your installing of a free operating system on the device, or that can only work with one particular half-free OS customized by the manufacturer, I'm absolutely certain I won't buy it.

 

[klapse]

Exophase is spot on. And thanks for saving me a reply to Dredd.


Buying chinese products is not "Exploitation". True exploitation always involves force or coercion. It is not exploitation when someone offers you a better wage than your other offers and you voluntarily work in a "sweat shop". If you have a better job opportunity, you switch.

 

[kuru]

Jumping thru this rather quickly I stumbled over "(...) in order to be competitive we need to (...)".


What competition? IIRC there has never been any and also the product still is what it was planned out as, an enthusiast/niche device.


Also: My Pandora hasn't "aged". It still runs as fast as on day one. Even faster if you take software improvements into account. I don't run any software that makes me want more brawn.. is there any except emulators?


Also

Even if they are well paid, I don't care, it's not as we are contributing to exploitations of chinese workers when we buy chinese products.

Ignorance is bliss...

+1

If people want shitty tablets they're perfectly welcome to buy them. I don't quite get the point.

 

[WizardStan]

someone thinks simultaneously running 2-4 operating systems on 1 device

I haven't seen anyone actually say that. Apart from some emulation, it's not even really possible to run multiple operating systems simultaneously, and I'm pretty sure no one would argue our ability to emulate an x86 running Windows is a bad thing. Rather, in a world with sufficient storage, having multiple operating systems that the user can choose from at will is strictly better* than having only one of those operating systems available. Being able to load Android and then reboot back to Angstrom is currently a great feature, one which I hope becomes more streamlined and supported in the future; the fear is that Craig's vision sees the current setup of Android and Angstrom and wants to swap it, with Android being primary and Linux being the disused and less supported alternative: the idea would be that both are fully supported as primary options, selectable in much the same way as XFCE and MiniMenu currently are.


*pedantics about people who are afraid of invisible options aside.

 

[Exophase]

It's possible to run android and regular Linux at the same time, off the same kernel, so we could use it as an android phone while also running a full Linux userland. http://elinux.org/im...ting-Gentil.pdf

With a decent amount of RAM, that would work very well.

If you're okay with a solution that at best allows you to switch the I/O from one to the other (ie with chvt) with otherwise zero interaction that could work. I'd like to see Pandora take try direction regardless of what the hardware is like. It looks like there's still some additional kludging to get Android okay with sharing I/O. I'm still paranoid that some unforeseen problem will make it all untenable for real use. For instance, the incompatible driver vs userspace issues (like with 3D)..

 

[2bit]

If I'm to be using a phone based system ( ironically I'm typing this on someone else's iPhone 4S ) that has a whole quagralal of attachments and not even being able to surf the web while holding something give or take more powerful than a net book just to run emulators ( of which I own the actual consoles the beauty is simply on the go for cheap or free ) or doing some baisic word processing ( have a home pc , yet again the beauty is simply on the go in my pocket ) or Mabey just showing it off to a friend the openness of it all without hacking ( Plan to learn to code eventually ) , I find that the only thing a ICP2 non - connected presumably hacked phone console thing would have over a net book , ICP2 combo would simply be an accelerometer . And tell me how many word processors , emulators and programming languages do you of know of that use an accelerometer ?


Btw : sorry for bad grahamar and spelling .

 

[shideneyu]

Ok, let me explain my deep thoughts, you can consider me as a newb developper, however, I can't even port some visual novel on the pandora ! I love them, Narcissu was the only game ported that I could play with on my Pandora.


I'm using linux e v e r y d a y s on my main computer. I threw Windows to the windows few years ago, and I still think that Xfce was a bad choice for the Pandora. LXDE would have been a better choice. And on a supposedly P2, Mate would be awesome.


However, I can't even browse the web decently. For everything else (except the lack of a decent n64 emulator), the Pandora rul'z.


Nowadays, these problems are bumping me on my face, in a harsher way, considering the evolution of the market.


Yeah, you're right Kuru, Pandora is not intended for making any kind of competition. But still... the price is something that we can't play with.


When we are talking about Chinese worker, I still keep my opinion on it. Don't you understand that they are truely willing to work in these shitties factories?


Don't even think I'm happy of that, in fact, I would like to change the world and stopping poverty. But it's none of my resort. I'm disgusting of all these.


Please, think about the consequences, if we close these factories, these workers will have to find another job, maybe a job where they are more exploited (no, I said maybe, but it does is a certitude.)


Klumpen, It would be criminal, and I shall return your statement, in a deeply philosophical moddified way: Unconsiousness is a bliss.


I have nothing against you, sorry if you think I'm being rude, this is only a friendly debate


So, concerning Android. In the next coming years, Linux distrib' will come on Asian cheap tablets, it is just a matter of time.


I mean, especially, 90$ android chinese tablets and chinese devices. These, are not shitty at all, they got a good built quality, and got a lot of benefits when we compare to normal phones.


Things that exist rarely are being presented as being a good exclusivity: they sometimes allow up to 3-4 sim cards to be embedded. Most of the times, it is only 2. But that's something cool.


As I said on the first post, I'm very interrested for a long time now on chinese and asian products. It's like a hobby now. I like everything relating as being categorized as "geek" things. I don't buy these stuff because it is known on the market, but because me and I consider these as being useful (or not), or as being a tool of a geek. Things such as laser (to close street light! check on youtube), watch phone, video glasses (I don't own it for the time being), cellphone jammers, universal tv remote...


I consider that I know a lot about prices trends and I affirm that concerning android devices, middle prices devices got a good build quality, and it's not "shit".


I reaffirm that I don't care that they are chinese. I don't care that they are not well-paid germans.


Under the shield of defending good concerns to human condition, this is quite an act of defiance and of xenophobia that saying that "It's not good to buy chinese products, it is cheap and not good.".


Come on, it was true ten years ago, but, apart CC, they are a lot of competition in this market, and nowadays, every 2-3 months, I notice that they are improving the android devices on these wholesale websites, and it's damned hot.


Check this, one of my favorite shopping website, the price is relatively high, regarding some others wholesale website, but the ratio quality/security is nothing to be afraid of:


http://www.chinavasi...hones/?sortby=1

 

[Inferno's Reaper]

Okay, sorry for just now getting around to posting. I just got back from a trip & the WiFi only worked at the hotel lobby(not that it matters cause I hardly was there). Someone posted a link to something about running multiple OSes simultaneously, so I commented.


So, back to Linux vs Android. The sheer usefulness of getting the Pandora to work well on the internet can't be ignored & that would be a fine selling point to the system. If the Pandora could do the emulation bit well and match(maybe even beat) a tablet PC's internet capability, then it would be closer to worth the market price. It comes down to software. While popular, Android just doesn't have the developed resources that Linux does(especially flash support). However, being able to use both is quite useful to get the best of both worlds.


That's the best way to make the Pandora worth the price. You up the versatility of the machine. That's going to take software improvements/revisions over hardware.

 

[Klumpen]

So, back to Linux vs Android. The sheer usefulness of getting the Pandora to work well on the internet can't be ignored & that would be a fine selling point to the system. If the Pandora could do the emulation bit well and match(maybe even beat) a tablet PC's internet capability, then it would be closer to worth the market price. It comes down to software. While popular, Android just doesn't have the developed resources that Linux does(especially flash support). However, being able to use both is quite useful to get the best of both worlds.

Well, just like Angström, Android is Linux.

 

[Binky]

Angstrom has more GNU

 

[Inferno's Reaper]

That's what I get for being too lazy to look stuff up & properly think out what I'm trying to say. I spent 2 weeks not living the national stereotype, so apparently I regressed right back into it with interest when I got home. Gomen nasai.


The setup for the Android is considerably different enough from every other Linux I used so I didn't really think it counted. In fact, Angström & Android appear to different enough that they are about as different as Ubuntu & OSX. This is seen in how they're laid out & how one adds apps to the system. They have widely different setups, software choices, ect. So, I'm not sure how much the Pandora development team would be able to mess around with the stuff for Android or how well they'd be able to cut down the system resource consumption like they've done with Angström. I also don't know how easy it'll be to port everything to Droid, but I'm sure it'll be a nightmare.


Hell, it takes me an eternity to get the bloody google play store installed and situated. I've watched the rise and fall of human civilization dozens of times just doing that.