Zodiac Vs Gp32

[Robster]

Drumaster: not quite

The contents are not lost when you "turn off" your console, because when you switch off the console the screen goes blank, the CPU shuts down etc, but the RAM is still powered and retains its contents. I shouldn't have said "if you remove the batteries, you will lose all of your data". The Zodiac has a built-in battery, so the only way to lose your data is to leave it without recharging until the battery gets so low that the RAM contents are lost. But you are right, it is not like a hard disk because it doesn't retain it's contents with no power at all.

With the GP32, every time you run an application, it is copied from the SMC to RAM. It's done automatically so you don't see it, but it's done all the same

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

Even if the RAM is a storage medium, you take 12 for the os, that leaves you with 20 left over, what do you really plan to put on 20 MB? A game? Maybe a couple roms? Surely not very much, in the end you are still going to need to buy a card for any realistic use if you buy the Zodiac 1, so its still no comparision.

Something is wrong here...tapwave needs to be a bit more detailed about how their game system works if they want people to make an informed choice.

I dont think they would make a 32 MB and 128 MB RAM (accessable memory) version.

 

[jcbnetwork]

Just because they mention the word RAM does not convince me.

YOU are the ones who should research some more and will realize that...

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Don't be confused by the terminology

RAM doesn't convince you?! Do you know what RAM does mean?!!!!

It means Read Access Memory not Write Access Memory!!!

So you can't write by yourself on it so it isn't Hard disk!!!

And it's not written "Internal memory" so don't be silly!

And they didn't put this "Zodiac1 comes with 32MB RAM
Zodiac2 comes with 128MB RAM " if it wasn't true!

YOU are the ones who should learn more about computer and will realize that...

Come on dude, if you do not know that RAM stands for RANDOM Access Memory then you are the one who needs to learn more about computers.

The memory in the zodiac can be used as both RAM and STORAGE (thats why I compared it to a hard drive) but since TapWave keeps saying that 12MB are required for the system, on many places on the internet it is believed that they mean your actual HEAP memory is limited to 12MB and the rest of the memory is left to be used as internal storage.

 

[Drumaster]

With the GP32, every time you run an application, it is copied from the SMC to RAM. It's done automatically so you don't see it, but it's done all the same

So 32 and 128 MB are RAM!

 

[Drumaster]

Come on dude, if you do not know that RAM stands for RANDOM Access Memory then you are the one who needs to learn more about computers.

Oops typing error!

Congratulation dude you made a beautiful search on the net!

Anyway not all is copied in memory because the ps1 can launch games with 2 MB.

So why does the Zodiac need to copy EVERYTHING instead of copying only the necessary like the GBA, the ps1, the GP32?

 

[Robster]

How about an example: Let's take the example of a GP32 and a Zodiac 1, each with (some imaginary) contacts program with a database containing your address bok, a Doom application, and 2 WADs.

On the GP32, all files are stored on SMC. When you run the contacts program, it is copied to RAM, it loads the database into RAM, and makes changes in RAM. When you exit the contacts program, it stores the database back into RAM.
When you run Doom, it allocates about 5MB of RAM as the level data storage, and about 500kB of RAM as working storage. Each time you start a level, it loads the related parts of the WAD file into RAM, works with them, and then chucks them away when you start a new level.

On the Zodiac, all files are stored in RAM. The memory map might be:
0 to 12MB - PalmOS working memory
12MB to 13MB - Contacts program and database
13MB to 14MB - Doom application
14MB to 30MB - Doom WADs

So you have 2MB of RAM free.

When you run the contacts program, it is run "in place" - it doesn't take up any more storage. Likewise, the database may be edited in place although that leads to fragmentation so it might be copied to free RAM, edited, and then copied back to "storage" RAM.

When you run Doom, it is again run in place. It still takes up 500kb of free RAM for working storage.

Now it gets interesting! The way iD wrote Doom, it needs about 5MB of level data storage in RAM. But the Zodiac has now only got 1.5MB of free RAM... so it can't run. It could, and should, use the WAD file "in place" because it is already in RAM, but that requires that the program be re-written to use the WAD in that way.

Hmmm... am I helping here, or just muddying the waters? I know what I'm trying to say, maybe I'm not saying it the right way. Ah well, I'm only trying to be helpful

 

[angrypants]

If you're talking about this thing from an emulation stand point it would most likly need to copy the entire rom into memory in order to run it. A rom can be run much faster from memory which is why many emulators are written this way. That is why some snes games like tales of phantaisa don't work. That is also why a lot of games don't work in mame on the xbox. Those same games do work however in kawax though which uses virtual memory. These work and are examples but a majorty of emulators try to copy the full rom to ram.

 

[jcbnetwork]

You have been quite clear Rob.

The only issue that I wanted to bring to the table and clear up for a lot of people is that both the Zodiac I and the Zodiac II have the same amount of HEAP RAM. The 12MB that tapwave says is required for the system is in fact the HEAP. So when you consider buying the Zodiac II over the Zodiac I, you are only gettting BIGGER internal storage, but NOT more RAM.

For the same price of a Zodiac II you can get a Zodiac I and a 256MB memory card. But of course reading/writing from this card will be much slower than doing it to internal memory, plus you will be taking up one of the memory card slots. So it is mostly for convinience, not for power as a lot of people tend to believe.

 

[Drumaster]

On the Zodiac, all files are stored in RAM. The memory map might be:
0 to 12MB - PalmOS working memory
12MB to 13MB - Contacts program and database
13MB to 14MB - Doom application
14MB to 30MB - Doom WADs

So you have 2MB of RAM free.

So why the Zodiac doesn't work like the GP32?!
It would be much better to buy the Zodiac 1 which is cheaper if the Zodiac could load files like the GP32 and 32 MB of TRUE RAM would be enough, wouldn'be?

 

[Drumaster]

So if you have a Zodiac I 32 MB and that you want to launch Doom and a WADS that are over 32 MB, you cannot do this?!

Simply respond to this please : Can you launch programs bigger than the 32 MB or 128 MB (depends on which model you have) as the GP32?

Excuse me if I don't understand everything but I'm French so I'm doing my best!

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

You have been quite clear Rob.

The only issue that I wanted to bring to the table and clear up for a lot of people is that both the Zodiac I and the Zodiac II have the same amount of HEAP RAM. The 12MB that tapwave says is required for the system is in fact the HEAP. So when you consider buying the Zodiac II over the Zodiac I, you are only gettting BIGGER internal storage, but NOT more RAM.

For the same price of a Zodiac II you can get a Zodiac I and a 256MB memory card. But of course reading/writing from this card will be much slower than doing it to internal memory, plus you will be taking up one of the memory card slots. So it is mostly for convinience, not for power as a lot of people tend to believe.

Are you sure that the 12 MB RAM is the HEAP and that the 32 vs the 128 is just internal storage? Is there any documention to confirm this? (not saying you're wrong or anything, I just want the official word if possible, if its just an internal storage difference, I would rather get Zodiac1 + SD Card than Zodiac2..) I know the best place to find this info would be zodiac forums but since this topic is already here, and its being discussed I'd figure I'd ask.

 

[Drumaster]

Me too.
But I prefer to get a BLU!

 

[jcbnetwork]

I do not have any official info either because tapwave's website is not clear enough. All I am going by is the information posted by MANY zodiac owners at http://www.zodiacgamer.com take at look at their forums and you will see that this debate has been done to death over there too and I believe a conclusion was reached in which they said 12MB was heap and the rest was storage. And of the 12MB, 2MB are already in use by the OS so that basically leaves you with around 10MB of HEAP RAM.

 

[ste_167]

It sounds like a mess to me! I'm very happy with my GP32 FLU.. the only handheld that's gonna replace it in the near future is the Euro backlit one... (Actually, I'll keep my FLU for rarity values.... but don't tell my gf )

 

[jcbnetwork]

I just checked out the official tapwave support forums and this is what I found:

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What’s the difference between Zodiac™ console models?

The Zodiac1 console is housed in a slate gray case. It has 32MB† of built in memory and sells for $299.

The Zodiac2 console is housed in a charcoal gray case. It has 128MB† of built in memory and sells for $399.

Because the Zodiac2 has more built in memory, the maximum amount of storage will be greater, it will be faster to access the internal store to launch applications and accessing data files will be somewhat faster so there will be some gaming performance improvement as a result.


† 12MB of RAM reserved for system.

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As you can see it doesnt mention anything about being able to load larger applications or games. Like I said before, it would not be wise for a company to release 2 machines with different sizes of RAM making it harder for developers to do their job.

So you can think of it this way...

GP32 = 8MB RAM = NO internal storage space (Needs SMCs, max size 128MB)
Zodiac I = 12MB RAM = 20MB internal storage space (plus 2 memory card slots for up to 1GB of additional storage)
Zodiac II = 12MB RAM = 116MB internal storage space (plus 2 memory card slots for up to 1GB of additional storage)

 

[Robster]

Ohhhh.... CLUNK! I finally got what jcbnetwork is saying, and I remember it from some PalmOS programming I did ages ago... so I'm sorry jcbnetwork, you were right and I wasn't answering the right question

So the critical thing to get here is the terminology, and 3 terms in particular:
1) HEAP is working memory
2) Internal storage is where data and programs get stored, even when power is turned off
3) Program memory is where the application is while it is running

Just ignore system memory like stacks, LCD buffers etc for now...

In the GP32, SMC is internal storage. When you run a program it is copied to RAM, ie. call this program memory. The heap in the GP32 is all of the RAM that is not taken up by the program.

In the Zodiac, there is 32MB or 128MB of RAM. 12MB of this is permanently reserved as "heap". The remaining RAM is "internal storage". When you run a Zodiac program, it is not copied anywhere because it's already in RAM, so the section of internal storage that contains the program file becomes the "program memory" while the program is running.

So, Akuma no Houkon, jcbnetwork is right and you could get a Zodiac 1 + 256MB card, it would be less convenient but you'll have that extra 128MB+

 

[jcbnetwork]

Very good Robster, we are finally seeing eye to eye.

I guess I too should have been a little bit clearer regarding the difference in working memory and program memory.

But at least you finally understand the point i was trying to make all along and hopefully others will understand it too.

 

[Robster]

OK, having eaten crow over that one, here's another belief of mine that you can all shoot me down on ;-)

I hear a lot of people saying that the Zodiac's CPU is "enhanced", it's "more efficient" than the GP32's one, and so emulation will be much better on Zodiac than it is on GP32. And it's crap.

The Zodiac has a Motorola i.MX1 processor, which is based on an ARM920T core, just like the Samsung S3C2400 in the GP32. That is, both processors run 32-bit ARM V4 code (with 32x32=64 multiply and multiply accumulate, and half-word addressing etc), with the same execution engine. Both have 16kB of instruction cache and 16kB of data cache. Both have the same MMU and memory bus structure.

The Zodiac has these differences:
1) 200MHz processor, instead of 133 / 166MHz. Somewhere between 50% and 20% faster, so that will be an advantage. BUT:
2) 480x320 screen, more pixels to fill up. This is a disadvantage for emulation.
3) Built-in MAC and (i)DCT modules. These will accelerate MP3 playback, video playback etc, but have no effect on emulation.
4) Dedicated video accelerator with 8MB of VRAM. This will not have much effect on emulation, which is all about brute-force drawing of pixels.

I don't know how wide the RAM bus is on the Zodiac. If it is 32 bits it will be a bit faster than the GP32's 16-bit bus, but given that about 80% of memory accesses are cache hits, it's certainly not twice as fast.

I'm completely comfortable saying that while the Zodiac might be marginally faster than GP32 for emulation, it's certainly not a quantum leap. A full-speed GBA emulator is no more likely for Zodiac than it is for GP32.

 

[jcbnetwork]

So now that we have cleared up that issue, we should get back to the original question.

GP32 vs Zodiac I

GP32 BLU = $250 US Dollars

Zodiac I = $300 US Dollars

For $50 US Dollars more you get:

3D accelarator
rumble effects (vibration)
wireless connectivity (BUILT IN BLUETOOTH)
MORE BUTTONS (great for future SNES emulation)
faster processor
better screen (bigger + higher resolution)
built in rechargeable battery
you get 20mb of internal storage to start you off
you can add up to 1GB of storage vs 128mb with smart media cards
Plus you get a really good PDA with audio/video capabilities BUILT IN

The Zodiac wins hands down.

But what you have to think about is this... do you want to be able to play emulators RIGHT NOW? or in the FUTURE? Because right now the GP32 has many more emulators and they are FREE. But no doubt the Zodiac will get great emulators in the future. Even if they are not free, I would not mind paying for a really good emulator which people are actively working on as opposed to waiting months or even years to see if the free emulators get updated.

Right now I have a regular GP32, not even FLU and I am quite pleased with it. All I wanted it for was for portable NES. Hopefully the SNES emu will get faster in the future because right now, I do not find it enjoyable to play. Gameboy and Gamegear emulators are also good, but I personally do not find them to be too pretty to look at when the screen is stretched. So right now, I mainly use it for my own programming projects and NES emulation. The Zodiac I can already do NES emulation quite well, so if thats all you are interested in, you might as well go with Zodiac I and get a lot more bang for your buck.

 

[Robster]

jcbnetwork, are you sure about that "3D accelerator"?

The ATI site doesn't list Imageon 4200, but the 2200 and the 3200 are both 2D-only solutions with a bit of video processing added on. ISTR that the 4200 is 2D-only as well. The "Fathammer X-Forge 3D Game Engine" is a software-only technology.

Of the other things,
Rumble effects - I can take 'em or leave 'em
Wireless connectivity - I believe I would grow to like this one
da-de-da-de-da

It's all a bit "better" than GP32, but not enough to warrant me buying one, and if I had neither but was considering which to get, I'd still be leaning towards GP32. However, the big thing for me (and lots of others) is of course: it's not available outside America, so I can't get one anyway