Zodiac Coders

[Prophet]

Actually I see _far_ more Zodiac basjing here than I see GP32 bashing on Zodiac sites. In fact, I see practically zero GP32 bashing.

As for the 33Mhz difference, that's not where it begins and ends.

The GP32 at 166Mhz is being OC'ed to the max. The Zodiac runs 200Mhz standard, and the ARM CPU is a newer more effeicient model, and has already been OC'ed above 200Mhz. Also, the Zodiac has support chips for sound and graphics which the GP32 doesn't. That's why it can (for example) do full screen stretch/smoothing with no CPU hit, or play midi's with no cpu hit, or play video at 30fps at 480x320 (in Kinoma) etc. And coders are just starting to learn how to make the most of those techniques. Then you have the full SNES control layout, the analog contro, built-in rumble, built-in bluetooth, 32MB - 128MB RAM etc etc etc.

So it's a bit innacurate to act like Zodiac is just a GP32 with a few extra Mhz.

In fact, while I certainly consider the original GP32 a great deal, the GP32 BLU at $250 compared to a Zodiac1 at $300 is a ripoff IMO. Just compare the technology and specs, and the fact that the Zodiac is also a full Palm and comes with all sorts of apps out of the box. I was actually looking at maybe getting a BLU just to be able to play some of the old GP32 stuff I really liked, but when I saw that price... forget it. But now I'm on a tangent so I'll stop.

GP32 rocks, but don't bash the Zodiac. Nuff said.

 

[Squidge]

One thing I like about the gp32 is that for programming, you get given the hardware and a "get on with it". You have direct access to the frame buffer, the sound dac, and the rest.

Is this possible on the Zodiac or do you have to do annoying operating system calls like on a PC running Windows (therefore basically slowing your program down) ?

I'm not bashing the Zodiac (as I don't know how it operates, hence the above question), but since it's also a full PDA with onboard OS, I'm a little worried that the programs will be more like bloated Windows-type software with several layers before you get to the hardware.

 

[skeezix]

Palm OS is *very* thin .. they didn't want to get "in the way" at all. The future OS6 puts a layer in between you and the framebuffer due to the multitasking of apps and them not wantting you to clobber other apps or breach security, etc. But for Palm OS prior to 6 (Zodiac is OS5) you have direct access to most of it. (ie: Direct framebuffer if you want it). However, on the zodiac it is actually much more efficient "generally" to use the Imageon.. open an offscreen buffer, render to it, and tell the Imageon what to do.. since thats "free" and "accelerated".

ie: So you can get the pointer to the framebuffer and just go to it; this isn't as portable, as a few units use funny shaped framebuffer. (ie: Most are linear, but the Garmin iQue has some padding on the sides, to everyones great annoyance). (Also, since the screen can be rotated, sometimes the framebuffer specs can change). On the Zodiac and most units you can basicly assume its linear.

However, on the Zodiac you also have 8MB of VRAM on the Imageon; you can send over chunks of stuff to the chiop and just blit them around by address or handle.

So while you can render full s/w speed to the framebuffer, it can be faster to work the Imageon, since drawing to framebuffer you're of course limited to bus bandwidth. But if you're doing sprites, you can shove them all over to the Imageon and then juzt send instructions to it, which is a much lower bandwidth need.

So for example, you can easily do a few hundred fullscreen 480x320 renders per second with tight code. But if you're rendering sprites, just ship them to Imageon, and then you can blit thr whoel screen some many-thousands of times a second, with no speed hit at all. You also get free anti aliasing and stretching if you like, which can be nice for emus.

So in my code I draw direct to framebuffer for OS5; for Garmin I render to offscreen buffer (my code thinks its the framebuffer) but has a post-render-blit using an OS blitter (sucks, but Garmins werne't meant for gaming On Zodiac I use either the framebuffer, or if dfoing straight sprite stuff, use the Imageon for a *HUGE* speed boost.

On Palm OS is life is good. Use gcc, or commercial supported tools. Piles of good docs and sample code, and thousands of devs in many forums to help people out. For the Zodiac specific stuff theres a much smaller grou pf devs so far, but some good forums with a lot of action, and with the piles of good info you dont' need a lot of help anyway

jeff

 

[Squidge]

Sounds VERY interesting. Instead of getting a BLU, think I'll get a Zodiac instead. Chance to play with the custom chips, PalmOS, and the like and have a full PDA as well.

Me like

 

[Charge]

I was thinking of getting a zodiac as well, but I may wait to see what the new x86 one from via will be like. You can read a snippet about it here:

http://www.techbits.ca/modules.php?name=Ne...article&sid=627

 

[The Moose]

I suggest some of you go back to when GP32 was 6 months old and see how much stuff or emus etc. there was for it.

You do realize Zodiacs aren't even retail yet, aren't sold worldwide yet, and coders are just getting started learning it. But from what we've seen so far, it's capable of some amazing things. I won't even make an comparative remarks, just leave it at that, but from what I've seen of LJZ as an example I'm not feeling particularly worried.

GP32 has had a several years to get where it is with all the nice emus and homebrew, wait and take a look at GBAX 2005 and GBAX 2006 before you start bashing the Zodiac for not having as many submissions this year. It's just getting started.

Those who bought the zodiac are obviously those who go for the next big thing. I am sure the next big thing will arise before the end of this year and the zodiac will die off before it hardly even started.

I agree with Skeezix also though. It HASNT been widely released yet, so we should give it some time before really bashing. But I truly think that for a $300 tag, and just the sheer lack of... anything at the moment, would turn some people off immeadiatley. Plus, this thing (zodiac) seems like it wants to butt heads with thwe PsP and GBA. If this is the case, mainstream = dead zodiac. The gamepark appeals to the right crowd, (albeit, I wish it were larger, aka EUROPE) while the Zodiac wants to take itself everywhere. And It can, will huge 3rd party support. But ao far, I havent seen much of that.

 

[pubjoe]

I'm really interested by it. I sold my GP a while ago with the intention of someday replacing it but I am very tempted by the zodiac.

I got my GP very early in it's life and it was a great time to own one with all the emulators being new (Although this means it's more of a gamble).

Also, as a consumer, I am free to buy whatever I like. Likewise, coders are free to code for whatever they like.

Reading some of the above posts I can see that for the extra cost of the zodiac, you do get that extra quality that just can't be made on the cheap. With that in mind the zodiac is just as good value.

 

[Antiriad]

Perhaps this is more appropriate for the Zodiac boards?

 

[Squidge]

Personally, I think that as soon as it's possible to buy a Zodiac from the UK properly (ie, not having to go through Ebay or some other "we'll buy it for you" company), then I will sell my gp32 and buy a Zodiac. Until that time, I think I'll just keep my Gp32. Don't know for sure though - if I find one at a decent price (< £200), I'll probably just buy it.

Will hold off on the BLU purchase though now I think, and slow down the gp32 development, looking more into Zodiac development.

 

[bringoutthegimp]

these zodiac threads are getting annoying. how about a joint zodiac and gba pinned topic

 

[mattmagoo]

How about we just stop talking about them,

Zodiac is a nice machine, as much as i hate to say it, it is,

We all know their boards can be a little hostile, but read this thread and u realise that ours can b too, and every thread about the Zodiac mentions this.

We shouldn't be worried about all the coders going over to the Zodiac because its their choice and, lets face it the GP32 has reached a peak, unless there is a successful Euro launch, which ay or may not bring more awareness to other developers. If every GP32 coder left for the Zodiac today, sure, I'd be a little dissapointed but I could start to play all of the emulators i neglected to play coz of homebrew or the homebrew I never played in the first place. It wont be as fun but I'll cope

So f*** the Zodiac and get to playing ure GP32 or I'll come round your house and bitch slap ure mum

 

[Antiriad]

Personally, I think that as soon as it's possible to buy a Zodiac from the UK properly (ie, not having to go through Ebay or some other "we'll buy it for you" company), then I will sell my gp32 and buy a Zodiac. Until that time, I think I'll just keep my Gp32. Don't know for sure though - if I find one at a decent price (< £200), I'll probably just buy it.

Will hold off on the BLU purchase though now I think, and slow down the gp32 development, looking more into Zodiac development.

Whilst it certainly brings me no joy to read this, its indicative of the way things are increasingly heading. Theres a certain inevitability about the whole situation between the GP32 and the Zodiac right now that for me is reminiscant of being an Amiga owner back in 1994 with everyone jumping ship (or at least intending to) to the 486 PC.

The Zodiac is a better, more advanced product than the GP32 and so offers more possibilities to programmers. So naturally, its going to appeal to them more. And it will only get better and better with the passing of time as a result. This can not be ignored. (How well it stands up to the PSP, PPC and other impending handhelds remains to be seen however.)

But we cannot ignore the fact that Emu/Homebrew developers who were once GP32-only have over the past 6 months shifted their emphasis to the Zodiac - and will only continue to do so. I cant say I exactly like it, but it cant be denied either.

The origins of this thread therefore I do find somewhat questionable. That and the advertising of the GP32's competition by those who no longer own one.

 

[skeezix]

They are not (shoudl not!) be in competition. They're both brothers in arms, serving their niches and waging war with the biger guys. They should be allies.

But yeah, if both groups insist on cross polinating, there shoudl be a sticky thread people can use and keep it out of the main discussion. Like holy cow

jeff

 

[DaveC]

Personally, I think that as soon as it's possible to buy a Zodiac from the UK properly (ie, not having to go through Ebay or some other "we'll buy it for you" company), then I will sell my gp32 and buy a Zodiac. Until that time, I think I'll just keep my Gp32. Don't know for sure though - if I find one at a decent price (< £200), I'll probably just buy it.

Will hold off on the BLU purchase though now I think, and slow down the gp32 development, looking more into Zodiac development.

Honestly Squidge, while it is obviously up to you what you do, I as a Zodiac 2 owner would advise against selling the GP32 for a Zodiac. You won't get that much for the GP32 to make it worthwhile to sell anyway. If you want a Zodiac that is fine, but I would suggest keeping the GP32 and have BOTH systems. I like having both as you get the best of both worlds as there are pluses and minuses for each. Since they are both ARM based you can easily port stuff back and forth as well, Skeezix does that alot. Just my 2p.

 

[Squidge]

I'd really some experience of coding for PalmOS, but I've decided to purchase a different device now (not a Zodiac) that's a small amount cheaper, and keep my GP32.

 

[Prophet]

I'd really some experience of coding for PalmOS, but I've decided to purchase a different device now (not a Zodiac) that's a small amount cheaper, and keep my GP32.

Well, if money is the issue, and you really would like to get into PalmOS coding, keep in mind that Tapwave gives verified developers a discount price when they buy a Zodiac. Just go to http://www.tapwave.com/developers/index.asp and sign up. It's pretty hassle free.

But hey, whatever device floats your boat.

 

[Antiriad]

They are not (shoudl not!) be in competition. They're both brothers in arms, serving their niches and waging war with the biger guys. They should be allies.

But yeah, if both groups insist on cross polinating, there shoudl be a sticky thread people can use and keep it out of the main discussion. Like holy cow

jeff

Hear hear Skeezix - on both points.

 

[Squidge]

Personally, I think of the Zodiac as the GP32's big brother.

 

[pubjoe]

Personally, I think of the Zodiac as the GP32's big brother.

Nah... GP32's the big brother. He's getting a bit Smelly and worn around the edges, but we still love him.