Your Holy gaming Grail for Pandora 2..?

[Wrath Of Khan]

Craig has indeed stated that it will be a dual boot system several times.As to whether or not the linux based operating system will be fully supported is another debate.Android could be a good move but the pandora 2 still needs to have other unique features to make it stand out.I suspect though that a unique android device with a unique spin on the design norms is what he and M.Weston could be aiming for. Im not personally a big linux user.My experiences of linux on my laptop led me to the decision that linux sucks ass.The modified pandora os though works a bit like windows, so not so bad. The problem is that apple and android phones/tablets have gotten people used to simplicity and instantanaeous usability and they somehow expect the pandora to be the same.

 

[MarioPandio]

Don't get me wrong Prometheus and Wizardstan, I would agree that the Pandora OS is a piece of cake to use, the PND system itself is awesome and with the Repo, PNDStore and now the ever improving Panorama for updating/launching, It gets better all the time. When minimenu gets PND updating built in and full wifi working, it too will offer a fast, clean UI that will rival iOS and Android and such like.


So yes, there must have been a lot of stupid people re-boxing their Pandoras and probably their toasters too


I simply recall (I hope correctly) Craigix mentioning it, during all the debates about moving his appstore to the repo spec and his decision to go it alone and offer up an ingenious UI of his own (which I guess is sadly no longer going to be presented as an option for Pandora 1, as it would have been great to see what cunning ace he had up his sleeve)!


The only difficult thing about operating a Pandora in comparison to some tablet, phone OS system, is that you need both hands to do so! With a baby in one hand, it is easier to use an iTouch or some such for example. Although you should really be concentrating on the baby and not angry ninja fruit birds anyway.


edit : sorry for the off topicness

 

[WizardStan]

I simply recall (I hope correctly) Craigix mentioning it

Aye, he did mention it before. Saying something twice doesn't make it true, nor does it add any information to simply repeat it if it is true. If people are returning because they have difficulty using it, it does no one any good to not tell the people with the ability to correct it what the problems are. If they were the hakmanplayer type who expected the BIOS and ROMs to just be available, they're plumb out of luck and I don't see how Craig can blame that on the software. If, however, they have legitimate complaints about vague parts of the interface that may only be obvious to us because we were around as the interface evolved then we can fix those vagueries, maybe add a tutorial that addresses these concerns. But he didn't, he waves this 10-20% figure around as an example of why Linux is so bad with no specifics to back it up.

 

[SNESFAN]

well if you want to do like android does for the sd card file structure issue...


there's a built in script when you put in a sdcard it's something like this


"if not exist then mkdir /mnt/sdcard/folder"


and for files downloaded it puts them automatically into one of these folders


/mnt/sdcard/downloads/


most "app installer" programs scan this directory and install the .apk files into the correct user app directory /data/app/ (on nand)


the user "lives" on the sd card, documents etc, but user installed apps live on nand... there is a syslink to the sdcard if nand gets too full with apps. There are also /system/apps/ for built-in apps like brower and core apps.


any market program, offical or 3rd party put the files where they need to be... might want to think about doing this, maybe adding it to the app repo, have the developer specify the working directory of each download so it sets up the folders automatically.


would help the users *a lot*


the launcher program for android is open source so... maybe some of the code can be *ported/stripped/converted* over to the pandora and used as one of the interface options, it would potentially fix both major gripes.


the UI does need a more modern overhall (see flashy) to be competitive though, but if you guys won't bring android to the pandora, maybe bring the pandora to android. Just an idea.


EDIT: also, don't know if the pandora does this but there is a "cache" and "user" or data partition (syslinked to /cache/ and /data/) on nand for all temp (webpage and pageing) and user files (apps, setting) etc.. its seperate from the system partition... /cache/ and /data/ can both be formatted to give a new user oob experience. <- think was a challenge when I had to sell my pandora.. .didn't know how to dump everything other than reflashing

 

[MarioPandio]

Yes its a pity, as as you say, the community would have jumped to help with any changes required to make things simpler, if they knew what the concerns were. Its a very helpful place, even for those that cant follow any instructions and just like to shout from anonymity


I've put cash down on the bounty for Android but I'd definitely prefer it as an option, not the default. A dual boot or more is preferred. It would be an enormous loss if the P2 cannot out the box maintain backwards compatibility with the P1 library, ginge etc. 4 years of work down the drain almost.

 

[Prometheus]

None, really, other than the possibility of QEMU + user-mode WINE, for portable Jazz Jackrabbit 2 goodness.


Everything else I wanted, the first one can already do.

In this case, a Pandora 2 may be useless to you

Astounding!


[/off-topic]

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

I simply recall (I hope correctly) Craigix mentioning it

Aye, he did mention it before. Saying something twice doesn't make it true, nor does it add any information to simply repeat it if it is true. If people are returning because they have difficulty using it, it does no one any good to not tell the people with the ability to correct it what the problems are. If they were the hakmanplayer type who expected the BIOS and ROMs to just be available, they're plumb out of luck and I don't see how Craig can blame that on the software. If, however, they have legitimate complaints about vague parts of the interface that may only be obvious to us because we were around as the interface evolved then we can fix those vagueries, maybe add a tutorial that addresses these concerns. But he didn't, he waves this 10-20% figure around as an example of why Linux is so bad with no specifics to back it up.

I dont think the 10 to 20 percent quote need be taken so seriously.It was just an example.If some returned it for such a reason telling us on the forums wouldnt help anyhow.And at the end of the day craig or any of the op team are not Beholden to us at least not as regards a pandora 2 because we won't be pre-ordering/paying up front this time.Besides there will be a dual boot option anyways and the rest is a waiting game.

 

[WizardStan]

Besides there will be a dual boot option anyways and the rest is a waiting game.

There will? You absolutely certain about that? Do you have some information that hasn't been said?

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Besides there will be a dual boot option anyways and the rest is a waiting game.

There will? You absolutely certain about that? Do you have some information that hasn't been said?

Well id bet money on it.Edd has said that a pandora 2 will not be without linux on gp32x.de i believe.And craig has said the dual boot option will be available.Whether linux will be the main os or at least properly supported thats another question.But it would be suicide to abandon the current userbase for sure.As much backwards compatability as possible is needed hardware wise and the natives(us)must be appeased to some degree.Hopefully a thread will be started by craig/edd later on to take community ideas onboard too but its up to them really i think.

 

[Exophase]

Having a "dual boot option" should rightfully imply shipping with two OSes. Whether or not you can, afterkmarket, install your own second OS, and perhaps your own bootloader to let you switch them, is immaterial and goes without saying (OPT has zero to gain by trying to lock the device down and it'd probably just be more work anyway). You can do this with a lot of phones and tablets too. Unfortunately Craig hasn't clarified if this is all he's talking about or not.

 

[WizardStan]

And craig has said the dual boot option will be available.

No he didn't. He said it wouldn't be locked down so you'd be free to install whatever you want, implying that Linux would necessarily be a fully community driven effort. He hasn't outright said either way, but the impression I'm getting is that he wants Android, and nothing but Android, to be officially supported.

Whether linux will be the main os or at least properly supported thats another question.But it would be suicide to abandon the current userbase for sure.As much backwards compatability as possible is needed hardware wise and the natives(us)must be appeased to some degree.Hopefully a thread will be started by craig/edd later on to take community ideas onboard too but its up to them really i think.

We agree, but Craig has mentioned several times in different threads that he may choose a SoC that isn't backwards compatible or otherwise has no Linux support. This actually runs contrary to what I've heard Exophase mention, that Linux support is actually getting better recently, not worse, so for him to make this claim either means he isn't actually paying attention to the trends or that he already has in mind a SoC which does do Android out of the box like he wants but doesn't have any Linux support. It's a pretty bold claim, in either case.

 

[SNESFAN]

I think you're elaborating a bit... and probally a bit too much... he said wants something that doesn't require to much R&D time to "just be done" something that just works. The manufacturer of who he might have considered an option is saying "here's something that works"


the difference between "offical support" and "community support" is like 3-4 guys... and over half of those I'm sure are working or will work for free anyway... so most of the community IS the official support on the P1... not sure what you all are freaking out about.


Now that I really think about it... what is the real problem here? The same people that ported angstrom to the P1... will probally be the exact same people that port it to the P2... from a community persepective it will be official... to your average dumbass user... it's android... less stupid questions... more sales...


i don't see a bad side to this...


EDIT: and to top it all off... anyone that can flash an upgrade can "in theory" just flash over android and never ever have to deal with it agian...


so what comes in the box and what your common person (that 10-20%) uses and what most people (the community) uses will be 2 seperate things... so it will split the community, but you probally don't want that % in the community in the first place... but you do (OP ltd) want their business

 

[DaMummy]

slight truthful bait here...seeing how much craig contributed to the pandora 1 OS, does android even stand a chance of ever making its way to Pandora2 if craig is the one thats pushing it?

 

[Exophase]

I think you're elaborating a bit... and probally a bit too much... he said wants something that doesn't require to much R&D time to "just be done" something that just works. The manufacturer of who he might have considered an option is saying "here's something that works"

In your mind there's this scenario where Craig has this SoC picked out and the manufacturer is telling him Android is already done while Pandora-like Linux is going to take work: so much work that it's practically guaranteed to end up behind where Pandora 1 is. This situation seems far removed from any SoC out that I know of, and given Craig's other claims about how recompiling for Pandora compatibility is inevitable and NEON support is problematic I don't really buy it.

the difference between "offical support" and "community support" is like 3-4 guys... and over half of those I'm sure are working or will work for free anyway... so most of the community IS the official support on the P1... not sure what you all are freaking out about.

Now that I really think about it... what is the real problem here? The same people that ported angstrom to the P1... will probally be the exact same people that port it to the P2... from a community persepective it will be official... to your average dumbass user... it's android... less stupid questions... more sales...


i don't see a bad side to this...


EDIT: and to top it all off... anyone that can flash an upgrade can "in theory" could just flash over android and never ever have to deal with it agian...

No, the difference is something available at launch that you can count on vs something that you have to try to convince users to put on their cards. That's a huge stumbling block, and a big catch 22, because the less people have it the less developers will want to target it and the less people will get it.


Try flipping your stance around so that the argument is that Android should be maintained and installed by the community instead of Linux and see how much you're okay with it. And in that case Android has the app support going in so it doesn't need that kind of periphary developer attention. But look at how well it works on current Pandora. Saying it's just fine for Linux but unacceptable for Android just sounds like a double standard. Maybe you think that Android needs precedence because it has more mainstream relevance. But for that to matter first Pandora has to have a shot at seeing mainstream sales. And that's not even worth talking about because unless OPT sells to a major company they don't have the resources to pull that off and won't get it with the investor model either. Products like this don't see exponential growth on their own. They don't start out selling a few thousand then balloon to millions. And even if they could, it'd have to be massively disruptive and frankly just go take a look at Engadget comments if you want to see what kind of mainstream appeal Pandora has. So when you consider marketability you have to do so within Pandora's established niche, and to that niche continuing to support Linux as a first class option is important.


And there HAS to be an element of being officially supported because it has to be done BEFORE the device is released. That can't happen without OPT's endorsement. Whether or not it's being done by paid members of the company is not important. What's important is signing on the right people and sending them pre-release hardware. Because this isn't going to happen overnight. And if you feel this way you'd better reconcile this with your broad agreement of Craig's claims that he has no confidence in a quality implementation because it's too hard.

 

[WizardStan]

the difference between "offical support" and "community support" is like 3-4 guys... and over half of those I'm sure are working or will work for free anyway... so most of the community IS the official support on the P1... not sure what you all are freaking out about.

Because if it doesn't have any sort of official support then the only way it will be known about is here on this forum, or in the few places where the community branches out: the niche that it is immediately becomes smaller, and the smaller the project the less interest there is in it. To assume it will "just happen" without any sort of support from OPT is extremely naive.


By having some sort of official support (even as a secondary OS, though I'd really prefer neither being primary and asking preference at time of purchase), making reference in the manual, on news sites, and hosting a tarball on their web site, it still reaches the same audience.


And everything else that Exophase says.

 

[SNESFAN]

In your mind there's this scenario where Craig has this SoC picked out and the manufacturer is telling him Android is already done while Pandora-like Linux is going to take work: so much work that it's practically guaranteed to end up behind where Pandora 1 is. This situation seems far removed from any SoC out that I know of, and given Craig's other claims about how recompiling for Pandora compatibility is inevitable and NEON support is problematic I don't really buy it.

I'm not a big programmer, but even I with my absolute minimum amount of programming knowledge was able to re-compile AOSP from source and use the proprietary bits from broadcom's SoC and radio drivers etc to get a very workable version of android running on my phone... it took me like 4 hours... sure it's not as polished as what samsung shipped it with... but it works really well... but if I can do it in that little time... I know anyone with a little research ability or skill can do and even a helping hand from the SoC manufacturer... I don't think I'm going out on a huge limb here.

No, the difference is something available at launch that you can count on vs something that you have to try to convince users to put on their cards. That's a huge stumbling block, and a big catch 22, because the less people have it the less developers will want to target it and the less people will get it.

... you are telling me that someone thinking to buy a android pandora, that would want to use linux wouldn't look in forum on this website and see people using said linux version would be turned away because it's not what's stock? I find that a stretch... I don't even like linux and I researched the shit out of this before I bought it (it's how I found it in the first place) I thought maybe it would work for me regardless.

Try flipping your stance around so that the argument is that Android should be maintained and installed by the community instead of Linux and see how much you're okay with it. And in that case Android has the app support going in so it doesn't need that kind of periphary developer attention. But look at how well it works on current Pandora. Saying it's just fine for Linux but unacceptable for Android just sounds like a double standard.

quite the opposite... I am someone who wants android.... however I was not skilled enough to be able to port it myself... even with what I mentioned above taken into account...That's also why I suggested using a chipset and parts that have a documented porting process already... It seemed like that would be the case on the P1... doing exactly what the begalboard guide said didn't work for me. Following the moto droid build guide didn't work either.. I wasn't even skilled enough to take droidoria and do something with that... I just didn't have the skill to do it. making custom uboots and ramdisks... it was just too much for me to figure out. And those with the skill to do this kind of stuff themselves had zero motivation to do so.. Years passed and nobody did it.. Nobody will do it, and nobody will do it for the P2 either. Say what you want but history doesn't lie.


The people with the skill to port build and support angstrom already exist out there in the community and I bet they have the motivation to do so... they want to use it. I had the motivation, just not the skill. And I think a fair amount of the people that want android are in the same boat as me. More of your common user.

And there HAS to be an element of being officially supported because it has to be done BEFORE the device is released. That can't happen without OPT's endorsement. Whether or not it's being done by paid members of the company is not important. What's important is signing on the right people and sending them pre-release hardware. Because this isn't going to happen overnight. And if you feel this way you'd better reconcile this with your broad agreement of Craig's claims that he has no confidence in a quality implementation because it's too hard.

I agree with you here... the people that can do an entire OS port should be given pre-release hardware.. even if it's not what's shipped on it. And exactly because it will take a while to build an entire linux OS. But didn't even app developers get pre-release boards so they could port their apps to the pandora? Those apps weren't included... or branded as official, but they were still out there. I agree with you, but I think that arguement is literally beside the point.

Because if it doesn't have any sort of official support then the only way it will be known about is here on this forum, or in the few places where the community branches out: the niche that it is immediately becomes smaller, and the smaller the project the less interest there is in it. To assume it will "just happen" without any sort of support from OPT is extremely naive.
By having some sort of official support (even as a secondary OS, though I'd really prefer neither being primary and asking preference at time of purchase), making reference in the manual, on news sites, and hosting a tarball on their web site, it still reaches the same audience.


And everything else that Exophase says.

You act like this is some giant forum and the word of anything not android will be tucked away in a corner... List angstrom on the main page of the website.. tuck the android topics in a corner... just ship it with android so someone with skill less than what is required to flash an android update can do use it effectively... the % of people that aren't capable or willing to go to a forum with their question (the ones you literally hear nothing from) will be happy


The niche is already here... this is the fanbase already on this forum... there will be no question at all that when it releases what this will be capable of doing beyond what is shipped with it and it will be known by those with the skill to either use it effectively or contribute to it.


bottom line is, those with the ability to contribute to linux will be able both skill and other to find use and contribute to it... your less skilled ones can't be said for the reverse.


I think peoples skills are both being undershot and overshot at the same time but at opposite ends of the spectrum... which is very confusing.

 

[WizardStan]

You act like this is some giant forum

I don't know why you think I think that. I'm trying to imply that this is a TINY forum. I would estimate maybe 10% of the people that own a Pandora have visited them and even less than that have done any digging. Nothing in your post follows. I didn't once suggest tucking Android in a corner, I didn't suggest tucking anything in a corner; heck, I even bowed to you and suggested that it could be the primary! I'm saying that unless OPT officially supports Linux as an alternative OS then the only way people will learn about it is if they do happen to come to this forum, of which the vast majority DO NOT! It would be the exact opposite situation with Android, except maybe a little better supported. I would get it, those that are already here would get it, but the message would be hard pressed to get out to the vast market out there that would be looking for such a device. Someone who happens upon a review of the Pandora 2 would read it, go "oh, Yet-Another-Android. Kinda cool, but I need something more complete" and move on. By not offering up any sort of support they are cutting the number of people the device will reach significantly.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

And craig has said the dual boot option will be available.

No he didn't. He said it wouldn't be locked down so you'd be free to install whatever you want, implying that Linux would necessarily be a fully community driven effort. He hasn't outright said either way, but the impression I'm getting is that he wants Android, and nothing but Android, to be officially supported.

Whether linux will be the main os or at least properly supported thats another question.But it would be suicide to abandon the current userbase for sure.As much backwards compatability as possible is needed hardware wise and the natives(us)must be appeased to some degree.Hopefully a thread will be started by craig/edd later on to take community ideas onboard too but its up to them really i think.

We agree, but Craig has mentioned several times in different threads that he may choose a SoC that isn't backwards compatible or otherwise has no Linux support. This actually runs contrary to what I've heard Exophase mention, that Linux support is actually getting better recently, not worse, so for him to make this claim either means he isn't actually paying attention to the trends or that he already has in mind a SoC which does do Android out of the box like he wants but doesn't have any Linux support. It's a pretty bold claim, in either case.

Well an soc without backwards compatability or linux support would surely be bad.We have a small community as it is and not being able to use existing software and software currently in developement on pandora 2 would maybe piss off alot of people.Bit like the Wiz/caanoo incompatability debacle.I think edd mentioned about a 70 per cent backwards compatability in the pandora 2.

 

[SNESFAN]

I didn't once suggest tucking Android in a corner

I was suggesting that... take the spotlight off of android if you dig even slightly into it (if that's the fear) so your scene people have a easy way to discuss and contribute and don't feel abandoned, but joe-average sees android gaming on the review and clicks buy now... it would stop "compulsive linux handheld buyer" though. Is that a really big market?

I'm saying that unless OPT officially supports Linux as an alternative OS then the only way people will learn about it is if they do happen to come to this forum, of which the vast majority DO NOT! It would be the exact opposite situation with Android, except maybe a little better supported. I would get it, those that are already here would get it, but the message would be hard pressed to get out to the vast market out there that would be looking for such a device. Someone who happens upon a review of the Pandora 2 would read it, go "oh, Yet-Another-Android. Kinda cool, but I need something more complete" and move on. By not offering up any sort of support they are cutting the number of people the device will reach significantly.

I hear ya, it makes sense in that situation, if that's really what would happen... I don't think it would but that might be just difference of opinion.


but I think any promise of something like this running what was on the first would be easily spotable from the outside... especially if they were at all interested in the first one.


I still can't get over that most of the people that would make angstrom great on this will either 1 not hear about it's other capabilities or 2 not already here and f5'ers

 

[WizardStan]

but I think any promise of something like this running what was on the first would be easily spotable from the outside... especially if they were at all interested in the first one.


I still can't get over that most of the people that would make angstrom great on this will either 1 not hear about it's other capabilities or 2 not already here and f5'ers

People are even still just learning about the Pandora 1 four years after it was first announced, 2 years after the first one rolled out the door. There is a huge market that hasn't heard about it simply because there hasn't been enough made to go around that advertising has been kept to a minimum. If they are interested in a Linux device and hear about an Android device, it may pique their curiosity for a moment but it won't hold them long enough to do any deep researching. If this were even remotely true, to flip it around, I wouldn't be responding to comments on news articles saying they wished it could run Android with "it can run Android, it's just very rough around the edges due to not much interest. You should look into it!" but they never do! There is nothing to suggest that it would be any different if Linux were the unknown OS it would be any different.


edit: And once again, it isn't about making it Angstrom great, or giving it to the people that are here, it's about getting a Linux based UMPC to the market that hasn't even heard of the Pandora yet. That market very much exists, and it has the potential to be huge as well. By not having any official support, the only way the Pandora will reach this market is by word of mouth, probably via comment threads on review sites lamenting that they wished it could run Linux. And then I'll respond "it can run Linux! You should look into it!" but they won't.