Wouldn't It Be Nice...

[Chip]

This would seem to imply that the order team is having to individually visit each order to know whether it needs re-ordering or not. If it does then they go ahead and process it, if not they move to the next. If someone asked me to do that 4,000 times the first thing I'd do is write a script to do it for me. Bottom line, I just don't believe there isn't a way to get an automated tool to build a list of orders that need to be re-ordered.

There isn't a way to create a tool in any reasonable time frame (less time than it would take to just do the refunds) from scratch to scrape the necessary data from the banking control panel and generate a list. Not if you want it to be accurate, private , and secure.

If this were going to be a regular issue, if they were going to stay with this bank, if the issue wasn't going to be resolved anyway in a few days, then maybe it would be worth the effort. Since none of those conditions are met, it is not. Anybody who is affected will be sent an email within the next few days. Those who are not affected will know when the "all finished" announcement goes out and they haven't received an email. The system is simple, effective and sufficient. All it requires is just a bit of patience on your part.

 

[piercer]

QUOTE
Those who are not affected will know when the "all finished" announcement goes out and they haven't received an email.


Sorry to keep going on about it, but you really don't get it - If I have not received an email when the "all finished" announcement goes out I will not know that I am not affected (please see my original post). The only thing I will know is that I haven't received the email. There is no way for me to check or confirm that I should be expecting one (or not) and that there has (or perhaps has not) been a problem.

 

[jdh2550]

I really can't follow you there, where is that gasoline?

I presumed that the following was sarcasm:

Oh my. In the time they call a lawyer and set up a contract, they can instead process the next 300 re-orders. In the time they set up a script to collect the date, the next 150 and so on.

If it's not sarcasm then you are definitely overestimating either the difficulty of what I was suggesting or the speed with which the orders are being re-processed.

 

[jdh2550]

There isn't a way to create a tool in any reasonable time frame (less time than it would take to just do the refunds) from scratch to scrape the necessary data from the banking control panel and generate a list. Not if you want it to be accurate, private , and secure.

That's a bold statement - but without more data I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. But, remember the resources creating the status pages need not be the resources doing the refunds. BTW, the first information we had was that the orders would have been reprocessed by now - that's not a complaint just an observation (and an observation that perhaps calls into question your assertion that it's not worth the effort.

QUOTE

If this were going to be a regular issue, if they were going to stay with this bank, if the issue wasn't going to be resolved anyway in a few days, then maybe it would be worth the effort. Since none of those conditions are met, it is not.


This is where you seem to be a little surer of the position than the data seems to suggest. Remember when you were saying with absolute certainty that the order emails would be out last week? Again, not a complaint just pointing out that although you mean well I'm not sure you can predict the future with the absolute certainty you seem to state.

Of course if every few days you keep saying in a few days then at some point you'll be right.

From my perspective you both seem overly defensive of the "it's not worth it" position without having really looked into what it might take. But, enough beating of dead horses - I'll just wait along with the rest of them.

Thanks again for taking the time to be a key communicator in this.

 

[mali]

I really can't follow you there, where is that gasoline?

I presumed that the following was sarcasm:

Oh my. In the time they call a lawyer and set up a contract, they can instead process the next 300 re-orders. In the time they set up a script to collect the date, the next 150 and so on.

If it's not sarcasm then you are definitely overestimating either the difficulty of what I was suggesting or the speed with which the orders are being re-processed.


Ok, it was an exaggeration I don't want to be an ass, I apologize
But the direction I wanted to go is, that it will take time to do the things you suggest and I doubt that cost-benefit-ratio will be better than just to continue in the way it is already done. My concerns about sensible data still stands and I doubt, that it is worth it.

Edit:
Just IMO

 

[jdh2550]

But the direction I wanted to go is, that it will take time to do the things you suggest and I doubt that cost-benefit-ratio will be better than just to continue in the way it is already done. My concerns about sensible data still stands and I doubt, that it is worth it.

Edit:
Just IMO

Yes, you already made your direction quite clear - however I believe that your cost-benefit-ratio is based on an inflated idea of the cost and an underestimated view of the benefit.

But don't worry - I wasn't terribly offended by your sarcasm. I just think you guys underestimate the benefit of a simple status checking tool. The benefit is decreasing - this was first suggested some time last week (this is not the first time the idea was raised).

No worries - I'll take my offer to help with this solution off the table and will mention it no more...

 

[Chip]

Sorry to keep going on about it, but you really don't get it - If I have not received an email when the "all finished" announcement goes out I will not know that I am not affected (please see my original post). The only thing I will know is that I haven't received the email. There is no way for me to check or confirm that I should be expecting one (or not) and that there has (or perhaps has not) been a problem.
If you're really that concerned about the reliability of your email provider, then wait a week and check your bank / CC statement to see if there has been a refund. There is no set deadline to re-order at this time. Anything up to the point where Pandoras start moving out the door will probably be acceptable, and it looks like we have at least two or three weeks before that happens.

There isn't a way to create a tool in any reasonable time frame (less time than it would take to just do the refunds) from scratch to scrape the necessary data from the banking control panel and generate a list. Not if you want it to be accurate, private , and secure.

That's a bold statement - but without more data I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. But, remember the resources creating the status pages need not be the resources doing the refunds. BTW, the first information we had was that the orders would have been reprocessed by now - that's not a complaint just an observation (and an observation that perhaps calls into question your assertion that it's not worth the effort.
...
Remember when you were saying with absolute certainty that the order emails would be out last week? Again, not a complaint just pointing out that although you mean well I'm not sure you can predict the future with the absolute certainty you seem to state.I was not "absolutely certain" last week, and I'm no more certain this week. If we could have predicted with any certainty how this whole situation would have played out, we could have avoided it in the first place. All I can do is tell you what we suspect will happen based on what we've been told by the other parties involved. Based on what they're telling us, everything should be cleared up by the end of the week. If things change, I'll update you. Obviously, it wouldn't be the first time.

What I can be certain about is that any kind of confirmation system / list is more effort than the team can spare right now, and they have no intention to cobble something like that together at this time. Sorry, but that is the final answer.

 

[Squidge]

If someone asked me to do that 4,000 times the first thing I'd do is write a script to do it for me. Bottom

I'm going to stick my head out here and say that the people processing the refunds are not capable of writing a script to do the job (whether it be knowledge, software, availability of data, or whatever), and even if they could, I doubt Craig would want them spending several days on such a task. You can't just hack something together and hope it works for a task like this. It would need to designed, written, and tested, and even then would probably require human intervention to ensure the correct choices are made. Remember that it's interfacing to a banking system, not catalogging snes roms on an sd card. Since it's a one-off task, its far easier (and probably quicker) to just do it manually. After all, there's no urgent deadline.

Sorry to keep going on about it, but you really don't get it - If I have not received an email when the "all finished" announcement goes out I will not know that I am not affected (please see my original post). The only thing I will know is that I haven't received the email. There is no way for me to check or confirm that I should be expecting one (or not) and that there has (or perhaps has not) been a problem.

Yes, there is. If, a week after the "All finished" announcement has been sent, you have neither received the email nor the refund (either via internet banking, or asking your local banks ATM for a mini-statement), then you can assume you are safe. Otherwise, you are not and you need to sort something else. As said above, there's no urgency. You don't need to act on the email as soon as it arrives (if it even does).

 

[Dunny]

At the moment I have:

No webpage with no idea if I will get a refund and have to reorder or not. I also have no idea whether I have been sent an email about such things or not. I have no idea whether a refund has been issued or not. Surely that is worse than what you describe above.

And is it so hard to just wait until the 15th (5 days! The hardship!) and then fire off an email to Jacquelyn asking about the status of your order? How about checking your account periodically?

QUOTE

If I could see a web page that told me whether or not my order was affected, whether or not an email had been sent (although this would of course no longer be necessary as i could read the instruction on the same web page)and whether or not a refund had been issues then there would be far less confusion - What is your problem with that?



Where did I state I had a problem with anything? The only thing that bugs me is that there are, as I stated in my original post, lots of people cheerfully ignoring what Chip/CraigIX/Squidge have been saying for the past week or so. But I'd not say I have a problem with those people, per se - I find them amusing to read, which helps to pass the time whilst waiting for my email or my pandora, which ever comes first.

D.

 

[jdh2550]

If someone asked me to do that 4,000 times the first thing I'd do is write a script to do it for me. Bottom

I'm going to stick my head out here and say that the people processing the refunds are not capable of writing a script to do the job (whether it be knowledge, software, availability of data, or whatever), and even if they could, I doubt Craig would want them spending several days on such a task. You can't just hack something together and hope it works for a task like this. It would need to designed, written, and tested, and even then would probably require human intervention to ensure the correct choices are made. Remember that it's interfacing to a banking system, not catalogging snes roms on an sd card. Since it's a one-off task, its far easier (and probably quicker) to just do it manually. After all, there's no urgent deadline.

Please don't tell me about "interfacing to banking systems [is] not catalogging snes roms". That's kind of insulting - I'll trade professional software development experience stories with you any day of the week.

I'm not suggesting that anyone on the pandora team does anything other than what they're doing right now. You guys keep throwing that out there - and that has never been suggested.

You guys are missing the point - it's about communication in general and not this "one off problem" - which has a high chance, through no fault of anyone, will be followed by another "one off problem". And the need for better communication continues.

But, you're right - there's no requirement for anything to be done differently, or by a certain time.

 

[Chip]

You guys are missing the point - it's about communication in general and not this "one off problem" - which has a high chance, through no fault of anyone, will be followed by another "one off problem". And the need for better communication continues.
You're right, I don't get your point. Communication is and has always been as open as possible. Every aspect of this project, including all the problems that have cropped up have been detailed on these forums and on the official site. They may not have been organized in the best possible way, but I'm working on that.

I honestly don't understand what "communication" you're looking for. I told you that we don't have the resources to generate a list of who does and doesn't get a refund. Everybody who is affected is getting an email sent to them. I posted that information in a sticky at the top of the forum. As soon as I found out that there was a slight delay in getting the refunds out, I amended the sticky and updated the Dev Updates list. If/when another one-off problem arises, I'll post it in a similar fashion. What else would you like me to say?

 

[jdh2550]

What else would you like me to say?

Nothing.

EDIT: QUOTE
I told you that we don't have the resources to generate a list of who does and doesn't get a refund.

I just find this statement hard to believe and don't understand why you wouldn't want to make the communication process easier on yourself.

 

[Kayday]

I don't know how you guys keep your cool (Chip, Squidge, craigix). My hair would be white as snow by now.

As far as communication goes, depends how you define it. All info regarding the bank issue and repayment has been said and is being resolved. In the meantime, have some patience. You've waited this long for the Pandora, how is waiting a week for any different.

 

[Wonslung]

hey, do what i'm going to do.

if you haven't gotten an email and they give the all clear message, email or call gbax and ask them about your order.

i've emailed them a couple times and they've been really great.

i'd wait till they are done with this crisis and give the all clear, i'm sure they are much more worried than we are right now and are working hard to solve the issue

 

[belthos]

There is no shortage of communication.

The problem is really too much communication :lol:

The people worrying about "Will I get the refund/reorder email" are getting anxiety worrying.

If they had no idea that such an email was possible and then it showed up at sometime with simple easy to follow directions to renew your order they'd be happy as clams.

Ignorance is bliss.

Patience is simply not something most folks have these days.

Belthos.

I'm not always patient but at least I am not currently suffering anxiety over this.
Most of the time I am away on the road 4-6 weeks at a time so anything I order, even if it arrives in a day or two at the house won't be in my hands for anywhere from a few days to a month and a half.
It gives you a different perspective on delivery times.

 

[PsoBloke]

Although the dream solution would be a website with up to date to the second status updates, it is unfortunately a dream - as Chip states, it would take more time to compose a system than to actually do the refunds one by one as they're doing. For good or for worse, non of this was planned, there was no back up "just in case we need to switch banks" plan, this is ongoing on top of all the current emails from customers that are concerned, want things added to their order, want to know when, where and what's happening, not instead of.

Now I perfectly understand that some are concerned that someone who should get an email wont and will lose their pandora and so on and so want a personal email sent either way but unfortunately, that just adds to the problem. What happens if you still don't get an email? What if the email isn't clear enough? If you have to send 4000 odd emails, more is bound to go wrong than if you're only just sending however many refunds emails there are. One the tide settles, nothing's stopping anyone from contacting Open Pandora directly to know what's going on, as all ready mentioned.

 

[WizardStan]

What else would you like me to say?

I, for one, will not stand this slacking about you've been doing. Why haven't you looked into the future and let us know what's going on before it's actually happened? If you were really devoted, you'd have done so by now. Seriously, that's about the only thing you haven't done, and if you're not up to the task, then maybe it's time for someone else to step up.

 

[Squidge]

Please don't tell me about "interfacing to banking systems [is] not catalogging snes roms". That's kind of insulting - I'll trade professional software development experience stories with you any day of the week.

In which case you should know how long it would take to do such a task, and know that it's not practical to just whip up a script to do everything in a few hours, as you seem to be suggesting previously (which is what I was getting at).

 

[joa]

the communication is fine

Just wait until we have a pandora to look at when one has been completed - That will give is something to talk about!

only a month or so left

 

[jdh2550]

Please don't tell me about "interfacing to banking systems [is] not catalogging snes roms". That's kind of insulting - I'll trade professional software development experience stories with you any day of the week.

In which case you should know how long it would take to do such a task, and know that it's not practical to just whip up a script to do everything in a few hours, as you seem to be suggesting previously (which is what I was getting at).

Doesn't that rather depend on what the script has to do? And, no I never mentioned "whipping something up in a couple of hours" but I can't see this being more than a couple of days work for a skilled developer using libraries that are well tested and easily available. Just think, if it had been started 5 days ago it could be done by now. If folks had been willing to entertain the idea and explore the possibilities that might have happened (or it might indeed have turned out to be too much work) - instead it was shot down as impractical based on 30 seconds of analysis.

But enough already - no one who is in a position to do anything wants this done and each day passed reduces it's benefit.

BTW - in terms of how long things do or do not take - you should also know how long it takes to bring a new commercial high tech consumer electronics gadget to market. What the pandora team has just done is by most accounts impossible to do in such a short period of time. So, once again, much kudos to Craig, ED, MWeston et al. they're out-performing the big guys. Good for them!