Would An Arm Based Psp 2 Be Good For Pandora?

[anexanhume]

Actually, I'm taking an interest in Nvidia licensing the A9 because this is the only cortex core they've ever licensed. Cortex is intended for higher-end mobile devices like umpcs or gaming devices. Given that they've never really created anything like that, I'm guessing it's the psp 2 they're creating.

That'd be something I'd be thinking they might be doing- but even if they've licensed the core, how far away are they from tape-out on their SOC and if it's soon, would it be available to other possible clients?


Both good questions

Actually, I'm taking an interest in Nvidia licensing the A9 because this is the only cortex core they've ever licensed. Cortex is intended for higher-end mobile devices like umpcs or gaming devices. Given that they've never really created anything like that, I'm guessing it's the psp 2 they're creating.

So you know for sure that they haven't licensed some other Cortex core. I guess you know some licenses remain secret?
BTW the apx2500 doesn't use an ARM11, it uses an ARM11 MP (and do you happen to know what apx2500 targets?).

Sure, some remain secret, but why keep others secret when the A9 is public but has no product based on it announced?

I know what the apx2500 targets because nvidia's website says it is for "mobile devices" and the pictures and other text obviously show it in some type of pmp or phone format, with emphasis on the phone.

Basically, the cortex cores could be thrown in a phone, but I don't think any company has opted for a processor that powerful for a phone, mostly because of diminishing returns (no one can use all the processing power) and smaller standby times. Given it is not intended for a phone, you'd have to believe the A9 would be thrown in some PMP or UMPC or something. However, I would have to imagine that would be an expensive device, and in that sector, features, form factor, and size seem to trump actual processing power. Frankly, I don't think its processing power would necessarily make it more attractive than any other device. And based on Nvidia's huge contact from Sony, I'm guessing it is to put together a SoC to form the basis of the psp 2. Sure, there are other interpretations, but I can't think of another logical scenario.

 

[Tom`]

I don't know about MontaVista, but Xandros is still mostly free software IIRC. Sure, they package it with a proprietary file manager and artwork and stuff, but it still uses KDE/XFCE and tons of GPL software. At what point does a distro that comes with some non-free stuff become a proprietary distro?

Thats the point im making. It has free software, and is in effect mostly free software, BUT the Distro is still proprietary. You have to pay for it, the same way you have to pay for Windows, if the company even wants to sell it to you. They have complete control on what happens to it and who can use it. Remember, no single package is a distro, but rather the combination is.

The thing is, though, they're still distributing free software. They distribute proprietary software along with it, but since they distribute GPL software they can't restrict the distribution of any GPL code which the distro may contain. So there's nothing stopping me from stripping out the proprietary bits and substituting my own file manager, say Nautilus, and redistributing that along with free wallpapers and graphics.

So for any device that runs an OS based on code I can modify, I or anyone else can pretty easily modify it to do anything I want, at which point it is an open system, which I think is the original point I was trying to make (it's been a while...)

relating to the PSP discussion, if the PSP2 used Cortex-A9 and OpenGL for the graphics, what would stop it from being an open system (given that TI would probably port Linux as they did with the A8)?

 

[Chip]

relating to the PSP discussion, if the PSP2 used Cortex-A9 and OpenGL for the graphics, what would stop it from being an open system (given that TI would probably port Linux as they did with the A8)?

Sony would. TI can port Linux or Android or OS/2 Warp to their processors, that doesn't mean Sony has to use those OSes. You might be able to install Linux on the device yourself - Sony might even let you, like they did with the PS3. That doesn't mean the default OS (which you will need to play any commercial games) will be anything other than totally locked down.

 

[Tom`]

relating to the PSP discussion, if the PSP2 used Cortex-A9 and OpenGL for the graphics, what would stop it from being an open system (given that TI would probably port Linux as they did with the A8)?

Sony would. TI can port Linux or Android or OS/2 Warp to their processors, that doesn't mean Sony has to use those OSes. You might be able to install Linux on the device yourself - Sony might even let you, like they did with the PS3. That doesn't mean the default OS (which you will need to play any commercial games) will be anything other than totally locked down.

Of course it wouldn't be open by default, but what could Sony do to prevent it? I mean, could they do something in hardware that would prevent any other OS to run (they could, obviously, since the Wii did, but the situation would be much better due to having an already mature Linux that would run on the hardware, right?)

 

[Svartalf]

Sony would. TI can port Linux or Android or OS/2 Warp to their processors, that doesn't mean Sony has to use those OSes. You might be able to install Linux on the device yourself - Sony might even let you, like they did with the PS3. That doesn't mean the default OS (which you will need to play any commercial games) will be anything other than totally locked down.

And you've hit it right on the head of the nail there.

For all of the things I may/may not completely disagree with Alex Saint-John on things, he DID get it right for what the
real reason for consoles are and why publishers and studios keep stepping up to the plate on them.

It's not about the consistent dev target, though it brings that to the table.

It's always been about rights and management thereof. Sony can't make money off of an open system because
it doesn't play gatekeeper for them to lay claim to a chunk of the proceeds, in exchange for ensuring that you
can't easily, if at all, rip off copies of console titles... Same goes for MS and Nintendo.

To be sure, the stuff still gets "ripped off" but they put a bar up that's a bit more difficult than a PC or a Mac.

Of course it wouldn't be open by default, but what could Sony do to prevent it? I mean, could they do something in hardware that would prevent any other OS to run (they could, obviously, since the Wii did, but the situation would be much better due to having an already mature Linux that would run on the hardware, right?)

There's all kinds of things they can do. And without DRIVERS (note to everyone: while there IS a Linux on the PS3, there are no drivers for the 3D accel chip on it...I wonder why...) it's not going to do a whole lot of good other than providing a fun playground for people to try to wedge Linux where it wasn't intended to run. As a usable space...not so much of one.

 

[Lazy8s]

Next generation phones are the target for Cortex processors. nVidia now addresses that market with CPU-equipped application processors, so they'd need to have some next generation ARM core licensed.

 

[Svartalf]

Next generation phones are the target for Cortex processors. nVidia now addresses that market with CPU-equipped application processors, so they'd need to have some next generation ARM core licensed.

Which is why it could just as easily be that. Keep in mind, folks, the PSP2 has to be compatible with the PSP for it to all work
for Sony at this point. That means that the likelihood of it being a Cortex A9 is lower if only because it'd be difficult unless they
do something like Nintendo did with the SP and provide a whole, full-on GameBoy Color inside the Advance and SP. PSP is
a MIPS based unit.

 

[ldesnogu]

Which is why it could just as easily be that. Keep in mind, folks, the PSP2 has to be compatible with the PSP for it to all work
for Sony at this point. That means that the likelihood of it being a Cortex A9 is lower if only because it'd be difficult unless they
do something like Nintendo did with the SP and provide a whole, full-on GameBoy Color inside the Advance and SP. PSP is
a MIPS based unit.

Sony already went that way to run PS2 games on the PS3, in two steps: hardware compatibility, then an emulator So I am sure they know a few things about MIPS dynamic compilation

 

[Svartalf]

Sony already went that way to run PS2 games on the PS3, in two steps: hardware compatibility, then an emulator So I am sure they know a few things about MIPS dynamic compilation

The only drawback would be the same one we face with Dreamcast emu as a possibility on here. There's not enough margin on the Cortex A9 to honestly emulate things off of a PSP. It's a theoretical, but not a reality- and while Sony's got a lot of good people, I'd be overly impressed if they pulled that one off. The PS3 has so much muscle over the PS2 that it can do it with some decent style- what we're dinking with and what everyone's whispering about almost doesn't.

 

[ldesnogu]

The only drawback would be the same one we face with Dreamcast emu as a possibility on here. There's not enough margin on the Cortex A9 to honestly emulate things off of a PSP.

I bet the MIPS is not used that much and Sony know their libraries to do some good HLE.

QUOTE
It's a theoretical, but not a reality- and while Sony's got a lot of good people, I'd be overly impressed if they pulled that one off. The PS3 has so much muscle over the PS2 that it can do it with some decent style- what we're dinking with and what everyone's whispering about almost doesn't.

The Cell main processor is not that powerful, it has roughly the same performance as a PIII 800 on SPECint.

 

[anexanhume]

Next generation phones are the target for Cortex processors. nVidia now addresses that market with CPU-equipped application processors, so they'd need to have some next generation ARM core licensed.

I don't know of any phones out there or planned that use a Cortex core. From what I have seen, it looks more targeted for UMPC type stuff, like the Nokia N810.

Next generation phones are the target for Cortex processors. nVidia now addresses that market with CPU-equipped application processors, so they'd need to have some next generation ARM core licensed.

Which is why it could just as easily be that. Keep in mind, folks, the PSP2 has to be compatible with the PSP for it to all work
for Sony at this point. That means that the likelihood of it being a Cortex A9 is lower if only because it'd be difficult unless they
do something like Nintendo did with the SP and provide a whole, full-on GameBoy Color inside the Advance and SP. PSP is
a MIPS based unit.


Have you looked at what's out there in MIPS versus the A9? There's no comparison on MIPS, MHZ, process size, or any other metric you want to use. Sony isn't looking at much of an improvement if they are looking to another MIPS core. Furthermore, there have been rumors of them abandoning UMD media because of poor movie sales. I can't imagine why that would mean they would abandon it all together, but there have been somewhat credible rumors suggesting so.

I think that, right now, it's an idea that's as easy to credit as it is to discredit as far as the A9 is concerned.

 

[Creature XL]

The Cell main processor is not that powerful, it has roughly the same performance as a PIII 800 on SPECint.

So, what you want us to tell with that bit is:

you have no idea what the CellBE is, right?

You can get the information easyly on Wikipedia. But to give you a small hint:
The CellBE in the PS3 is a 3.2 GHz PowerPC with two cores. So this is at least 8 times faster then a P3 at 800MHz. Then, the PowerPC has the AltiVec unit (I must admit, I don tknow if the P3 has SSE. If it has SSE then it is by no means faster then the PowerPC in the CellBE. ADDITIONALLY to this PowerPC it has 6 (available) SPE's which you can see as (to make it short) addtional AltiVec units. And the IMPORTANT part of the CellBE is NOT the procesing power of the vecor units, its the BROADBAND connection of the SPE's and PPE (the powerPC).

So please bring some evidence for you strange statement.


BTW, one idea to install LiNUX on the PS3 is to use the CellBE. The PS3 is around $400. The cheapest CellBE blade server is around $20000. So, IBM lets you play witth the CellBE and if you like it and can use it for your problems you will buy an expensive Cell blade server


And to conclude that, yes, I do program on the PS3 (we bought it for testing the CellBE) and we will by those expensive blade servers

And one more: If you don't like the idea of having "small" compuational units in a processor, Intel is developing something similiar (with 80 cores). So it seems to be the future fore high performance computing.

EDIT: just read you are about teh SpecINT! FFS, who cares about integer performance? But even then is the CellBE in the PS3 at least 8 times faster then your P3 at 800MHz

 

[cb88]

The reason drivers for the PS3 don't work (the mac PPC linux blob *would* work) is that there is a hypervisor that loads from firmware... from firmware i say!!! so that means that basically there are 2 operateing systems running on the PS3 at any one time one is whatever you put on it and the other is running on one of the SPEs controlling hardware access so that you only have authorisation to run software and use the usb ports under linux and that is it i think you get the blu-ray drive too but the RSX is totally locked down

sure you can install a different os on it but how are you gonna get by the hypervisor without replacing the firmware and im thinking bricking it in the process..... I set up a linux cluster with some friends at college and we have been thinking about adding a PS3 .....


i bet that if sony switched to ARM they would implement a hypervisor system (licensed from Cambridge university I believe) since the ARM archetecture supports them since it has ring 0 and ring 1 (correct me if im wrong on that) which would allow two O/Ss to run simultaneously and there is nothing saying that sony couldn't modify the ARM core to support such a scheme....

 

[Creature XL]

The reason drivers for the PS3 don't work (the mac PPC linux blob *would* work) is that there is a hypervisor that loads from firmware... from firmware i say!!! so that means that basically there are 2 operateing systems running on the PS3 at any one time one is whatever you put on it and the other is running on one of the SPEs controlling hardware access so that you only have authorisation to run software and use the usb ports under linux and that is it i think you get the blu-ray drive too but the RSX is totally locked down
ultaneously and there is nothing saying that sony couldn't modify the ARM core to support such a scheme....

to your question: Ring 0 has nothing to do with a hypervisor. Ring 0 is on most CPUs present. I know in more detail the Motorola 68000 which has the supervisor mode (which is onl yused by the kernel of the OS).
In this mode you are for example allowed to access all the memory locations in the system and you have somem priviliged instructions, mainl yto access the status register of the CPU. When you are in "User mode" you would get illegal instruction exceptions. I am quite sure that the x86 has similiar capabilities.
The "ring structure" has nothing to do with the CPU its implemented by the operating system.

If you read the wikipedia article Ring 0 you'll see that the hypervisor we know from the virtualisation extensions on x86 is in "Ring -1".


OFFTOPIC:
I read the same about teh hypervisor runninng on one of the SPE's, BUT I can't imagin how that should work. So my question to you, if you have more detailed informaion about this? It is not important, its just my interest. You can PM me if you want. We don't want to get offtopic for ever

 

[ldesnogu]

The Cell main processor is not that powerful, it has roughly the same performance as a PIII 800 on SPECint.

So, what you want us to tell with that bit is:

you have no idea what the CellBE is, right?
/me looks at his PS3 running Linux and the various programs he wrote that use the PPU and the SPUs that run around circles the same PC programs.

What makes you think I don't know anything about Cell? I bought a PS3 on day 1, installed Linux the very same day, and wrote my first programs the same day.

I even had to buy my wife a Wii to be sure she does not think the PS3 is a console

QUOTE
You can get the information easyly on Wikipedia. But to give you a small hint:
The CellBE in the PS3 is a 3.2 GHz PowerPC with two cores. So this is at least 8 times faster then a P3 at 800MHz. Then, the PowerPC has the AltiVec unit (I must admit, I don tknow if the P3 has SSE. If it has SSE then it is by no means faster then the PowerPC in the CellBE. ADDITIONALLY to this PowerPC it has 6 (available) SPE's which you can see as (to make it short) addtional AltiVec units. And the IMPORTANT part of the CellBE is NOT the procesing power of the vecor units, its the BROADBAND connection of the SPE's and PPE (the powerPC).

So please bring some evidence for you strange statement.


BTW, one idea to install LiNUX on the PS3 is to use the CellBE. The PS3 is around $400. The cheapest CellBE blade server is around $20000. So, IBM lets you play witth the CellBE and if you like it and can use it for your problems you will buy an expensive Cell blade server


And to conclude that, yes, I do program on the PS3 (we bought it for testing the CellBE) and we will by those expensive blade servers

And one more: If you don't like the idea of having "small" compuational units in a processor, Intel is developing something similiar (with 80 cores). So it seems to be the future fore high performance computing.

EDIT: just read you are about teh SpecINT! FFS, who cares about integer performance? But even then is the CellBE in the PS3 at least 8 times faster then your P3 at 800MHz


Thanks for summarizing the thousands of pages of IBM Cell documentation that are sitting on my desk

You obviously didn't get what I mean, but I am happy you finally did some research regarding this specint results.

And since you didn't get my point let me rephrase it:
- I was talking about emulating PS2 on PS3 as is done in current consoles
- do you think the SPU are used for *MIPS CPU* emulation? I don't, but I might be wrong
- assuming only the PPU is running CPU emulation, PPU specint is not that bad a speed indicator
- in these conditions, since the PPU is not that faster than the MIPS 5900 of the PS2, and since the PS3 can still run emulated PS2 games, I conclude that Sony knows its job about emulation and that main CPU emulated speed is probably not a big deal; so saying Sony can't emulate a MIPS on Cortex-A9 is perhaps too strong a statement (especially since Cortex-A9 can be multicore).

I hope I made my point clearer

 

[Creature XL]

Thanks for summarizing the thousands of pages of IBM Cell documentation that are sitting on my desk

Just to make sure we are talking about teh same processor

You obviously didn't get what I mean, but I am happy you finally did some research regarding this specint results.

And since you didn't get my point let me rephrase it:
- I was talking about emulating PS2 on PS3 as is done in current consoles
- do you think the SPU are used for *MIPS CPU* emulation? I don't, but I might be wrong
- assuming only the PPU is running CPU emulation, PPU specint is not that bad a speed indicator
- in these conditions, since the PPU is not that faster than the MIPS 5900 of the PS2, and since the PS3 can still run emulated PS2 games, I conclude that Sony knows its job about emulation and that main CPU emulated speed is probably not a big deal; so saying Sony can't emulate a MIPS on Cortex-A9 is perhaps too strong a statement (especially since Cortex-A9 can be multicore).

I hope I made my point clearer

Yepp, it seems I didn't got your point
For my defence I almost only read the statement "the CellBE in the PS3 has around the same performance as a P3 at 800MHz". This was what struck me.

I have no idea about emulating the Emotin Engine(EE). However, I did a bit of Wikipedia-research and found, that the EE has a MIPS core BUT has added 2 VPU's (vector processing units) which are used for vertex transformations and physics calculations. NOW, if and only if the VPU's use an own program (lets call it calculation kernel) and are NOT used like on the Cortex (AFAIK) where the vector instructions are in the same code stream as the "normal" instructions, THEN you could emulate those two VPU's with the SPE's in parallel to the emulation of the rest of the system. It is maybe not easy, but then the Sony enginers should know alot about CellBE programming.

This said without any experience in programming the EE or haveing coded an emlator myself! Just an educated guess


We have to consider aswell, that the memory inerface PPE-to-RAMBUS has a peak bandwidth of 25GB/s where a P4 at 3200GHz has 5-6 GB/s at maximum. Which might be even more important then raw integer power. Just thik about big look up tables which could be used.
Considering further the PPE is 11 times faster then the EE (just clock speed wise) and has two cores, which, if wisely used, COULD be approximated 22 times faster then the EE, it is not too suprising that they can emulate a EE with just the PPE. Its like a GP2x at 200MHz can emulate system with 200MHz/22 = 9MHz, which it definately can
Yeah Yeah I know clockspeed is not everything, but as a guidiance it is a good approximation.


And I too believe Sony can emulate the PS2 on everything (fast enuough). We don't have to forget, emulators we are getting for the GP2x and the PC and so on are made by devs in their free time. Maybe Zod
can do perfect PSX emulation on the GP2x when it would be his fulltime job and he would have 10 collegues which are almost his level. I have played some SNES games on a Wii. this emulator is perfect. It feels exactly like the SNES, though I don't know if it is made purely in software. Just as a 2nd example of what you can achieve when programming an emulator is your main job at a big company.

OMG, so much text at such a early time of the day. I hope it makes any sense

 

[anexanhume]

Guess not...

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/new...a-two-cpu-lines

 

[ldesnogu]

Guess not...

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/new...a-two-cpu-lines


Guess not what? The article only deals about the currently (or soon to be) available design nVidia will deliver, which is based on ARM11MP (though it's not obvious the CSX is just a speed bump of the APX).