Windows XP and Windows 7 on ARM.

[WizardStan]

I run Linux and use it for a great deal more than programming. Web surfing, watching movies, video editing, gaming. In fact, the only thing I use windows for at all is RDPing into my office, but that's only because it's an active-x control that they use for some reason. I've yet to find anything in Windows that doesn't have some kind of equivalent in Linux.

 

[mrtymek]

I dunno... It took me years and years to configure Windows XP properly... I mean years of experience. That silly stuff with installing Internet-available patches before entering the internet - because the viruses would eat me... I had about a CD of essential stuff like Anti Virus, Anti Adware, Anti this, anti that, the windows security patches, then the hell begins... The office suite, and then the next two weeks nothing works... get the latest codecs... get the Flash player, Adobe reader... shit....

Now on my home PC i just install Ubuntu (because of the rest of the family i find Gnome very friendly), create user profiles, and shout "Hey! It's ready!" Eventually, for my localized Polish version, there is a button "Install additional applications", but after i click that, I can easily leave the room...

I do not mention how many times did XP just refuse to work.

I know that even my friends said that my experiences with windows are quite hardcore, but after all, that's all about my experience... Isn't it?

 

[CyruzDraxs]

I run Linux and use it for a great deal more than programming. Web surfing, watching movies, video editing, gaming. In fact, the only thing I use windows for at all is RDPing into my office, but that's only because it's an active-x control that they use for some reason. I've yet to find anything in Windows that doesn't have some kind of equivalent in Linux.

It's true that Linux can do pretty much anything Windows can do, but it's rarely done in a way that would be familiar or understandable to new users. There is never much consistency to how applications do simpler things. Take GUI Toolkits for example; Qt and GTK operate quite differently and it can be rather confusing for new users when two simple applications that do basically the same thing can have such radically different functionality. Little things like this occur all over the place, making Linux very inconsistent and hard to grasp for the non-tech savvy. Because of the common mentality of modifying configuration files directly and handling things more deeply into the system, it's very easy for a new user to make their installation seriously unstable. In Windows, most of this configuration is in the Registry, which is large and intimidating to a new user, so they generally won't try to mess with it and potentially destroy their installation.

I've dealt with Linux for several years now, and it's quite good for putting together minimalistic systems that only do what you need them to, but for a desktop it's just too disjointed for my relatively varied uses. I use Windows for just about everything, and I really don't understand what all the hatred for it is from; I haven't seen a blue screen in almost ten years now and I haven't seen a single virus on any of my computers for a good 6 years. I run nod32 and have it running all the time--it has never shown me threat warnings and when I do a full system scan every month it finds absolutely nothing. I use these computers for about 12-16 hours a day and spend a good 75% of that time online but I never get viruses. It's because I don't do foolish things like run MSN with auto-accept file transfers when I could be running Pidgin or Trillian instead. I find it's quite obvious when you come across a sketchy website or questionable file online, so I just ignore them.

If you are more familiar with Linux than Windows and the inconsistencies don't bother you, then by all means; keep using Linux. There's nothing 'wrong' with it per se, it's just not as user friendly as it could be.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

people like to think of Linux as an OS when talking about it, but it isn't, it's just a kernel. there are thousands of distributions for dozens of purposes, each one does a job better than the others. Linux isn't restricted to anything, it can be used for everything on really all platforms you can think of, depending on what has been stuffed into the distribution. how it appears to you is just a matter of the distribution.

of course you can easily make your system unstable by editing some configuration files, but why would a new user even do it if everything is already set up for your needs? i do think that a Linux OS can be a way more user friendly than Windows. i know many people disagree on that, but that's really just because they think of new users as users new to Linux, but if you want to talk about how user friendly something is you have to think of new users which are totally new to the whole PC business. someone who switched from Windows feels lost because he can't apply any of the experience he had with Windows on Linux, others just don't care because they're ready to just learn something new or they're happy that it already runs well and won't get unstable by average usage. on Windows people often get their system in a very unreliable status because they don't know what they're doing (e.g. they don't use any AV software and fall for dubious websites with trojans), on a Linux system you usually really have to mess with the system files to get a similar result.

i do think that Canonical does a nice job with Ubuntu, the system has already almost everything the usual non-tech user needs and you don't have to search through dozens of configuration windows to find a single setting. it follows a very logical structure and does a lot of the complicated stuff automatically. the decision of the french government to switch to Ubuntu confirms it: the vast majority gets better along with it than with Windows. for people administrating the whole stuff it can be a catastrophe, but for the really unexperienced users it can be a huge improvement.

NVidia has btw presented their first ARM netbook on the Computex, and what it definitely shows is that WinCE is the wrong choice for netbooks...

 

[WizardStan]

It's true that Linux can do pretty much anything Windows can do, but it's rarely done in a way that would be familiar or understandable to new users. There is never much consistency to how applications do simpler things.
*snip*
If you are more familiar with Linux than Windows and the inconsistencies don't bother you, then by all means; keep using Linux. There's nothing 'wrong' with it per se, it's just not as user friendly as it could be.

Still no idea what you're talking about. Still speaking from anecdotally, my parents kept complaining about Windows; I installed Ubuntu for them, and haven't had any problem since. If 50 year old Luddites can sit down at an Ubuntu desk and understand it just fine, I don't see the argument about inconsistency. Stay out of of the emacs/vi debate and everything else is fine. Yes, it's different from Windows, but that doesn't mean it's any better or worse.

 

[mrtymek]

Inconsistency? If you switch from KDE to Gnome, probably yes, bot give me an unexperienced user who switches to another desktop environment ;p Gnome is made for begginers. It's made not to bother you even with too much information. For example: KDE's Ktorrent shows you all the strange information about the peers, shows you a progress bar aswell, but also a kind-of progress bar on which you see exactly what pieces of the torrent have been downloaded, and a few tabs with additional info. Gnome's Transmission program simply shows you a progress bar and the speed and size. If you care about anything else, click the torrents properties, then you see peers and stuff.
At first I just did not care about microsoft at all, but my hatred has began when I came across it's corporate policies while reading a book, and then when I actually took the time being bored while installing XP on my Vista "enabled" laptop, and read the licensing agreement. When I realised that I cannot legaly install my favourite flavour of windows (meaning XP) legaly, and then I cannot actually install Vista legally even though I have the license, because the license says, that I cannot workaround any of the os's limitations... well, that sucked... didn't it?

 

[CyruzDraxs]

I'm just speaking from personal experience. I've tried to convince several people to try out Ubuntu, but within a week all of them had destroyed their installation or asked me to reinstall Windows;

One of them decided to try it out because they had endless virus problems on Windows, so they tried to install Ubuntu on their laptop. The first time they tried to install the system was left in a crash-to-cli loop, the second time they tried to install there was no wireless drivers. They decided to look online and found several guides on how to 'fix' this problem, so they just followed it word for word--bad idea--they installed the wrong driver...crash-to-cli loop again.

I suggested a photographer friend to try Ubuntu, he installed GIMP. After a week of trying to make sense of it's horrible interface he asked me to reinstall Windows. He also hated that applications didn't function uniformly. He had a mix of KDE and Gnome applications installed, and they behaved quite differently from each other, which can be disorienting to new users.

I was sure my sister could have handled it--all she does on the computer is surf the web and talk on MSN. I installed Ubuntu and Pidgin for her, made sure the wireless drivers actually worked first, and hid a bunch of things in the menu that she wouldn't need like the Terminal. She tried Pidgin; it refused to transfer files from anyone using a regular MSN client, it also didn't support custom smilies or nudges which she used all the time and complained about. Then one of her friends IMed her a link to a video on the net...it was wmv...it didn't work. Maybe if she had installed the right GStreamer plugins it might have, but she wouldn't have known to do that, all the computer tried to do was download a file without saying what it was.

Linux is fine if you know what you are doing, but I certainly wouldn't recommend Linux to an average user any time soon.

 

[WizardStan]

She tried Pidgin; it refused to transfer files from anyone using a regular MSN client, it also didn't support custom smilies or nudges which she used all the time and complained about.

This is Microsofts fault. They keep changing their protocol intentionally to prevent "unauthorized" clients from being fully functional. AIM and YIM work as expected with custom smilies and file transfers.

Then one of her friends IMed her a link to a video on the net...it was wmv...it didn't work.

This one's your fault. You installed it, and one of the last things it recommends you do (because they can't legally do it themselves, nor even tell you to do it, just recommend) is install the Gstreamer Extras. If someone had sent her a link to an mp4, divx, ogg, or any of the other (rapidly growing) file formats, she'd have had the exact same problem in Windows. Technically even more so, since the number of video files a base install of MPlayer can recognize (even if it doesn't have the codec) is greater than that of WMP.

The rest of your anecdotes suggest problems with install and configuration, and in that respect I wouldn't recommend the average person try installing an OS at all, whether it's Windows or Linux. There are things that can go wrong in either, and lots of steps that can be easily messed up, as you've already mentioned. This is true of anything, not just Linux.

 

[fischju]

I use Pidgin, the latest version, on Windows and can say that it supports neither file transfers (at least outgoing, incoming ones work) nor custom smilies (that the other person can actually see) in either Yahoo, AIM, or MSN.

There is a saying: "Linux is free only if your time is worthless"

 

[dflemstr]

My personal comparison between Windows and GNU/Linux based operating systems (trying to keep it neutral here... kinda ):
This is a spontaneous list, btw, and not an exhaustive one.

• Areas where Linux beats Windows radically:
  1. Software management:
     • You have access to cutting-edge software that isn't 9 years old.
     • It is possible to install any piece of software in 5-30 seconds (depending on Linux distro)
     • Auto-updates for ALL installed software
     • Software integration: You are guaranteed (through various safety checks) that your software will work, won't contain viri or harmful bits and won't conflict with other installed software.
     • Other unique features: PackageKit, the software repository system (as principle), semi-UID package names, parallel version management (on some platforms)
  2. System:
     • A kernel that adopts to your computer and utilizes it fully, giving you increased speed, more features, and better stability.
     • A kernel that isn't 3 years old: the Linux kernel is the most active software project in the world.
     • Support for more devices/drivers than any other platform (believe it or not)
     • Other unique features: LVM, Zen, KVM, DeviceKit, udev
  3. Software design:
     • (If you use KDE) Qt integration. Qt is undoubtedly one of the best frameworks in the world, in all situations
     • The D-BUS. Pretty unique in its design
     • PulseAudio. You have to search very hard to find a better sound system.
     • Other unique features: Gallium3D, Compiz Fusion, NetworkManager (kinda)
  4. Security: (do I really have to bring this up?)
     • No viri in existence, in practice. This means: no anti virus programs clogging the pipes.
     • Secure by design: The OS doesn't contain any security compromises because of poor design choices
     • The user doesn't have access to all system files like it does in Windows. Do I need to tell you why this is a good thing®?
     • SELinux: Even if a hacker/virus was to break into the system, the compromised section of the system would be isolated
     • Other unique features: chroot (lol), AppArmor, PolicyKit
  5. User Interface Design:
     • Have you seen the latest KDE themes, Air and Glassified? Wow.
     • Compiz/Emerald
     • GnomeColors... Best theme I know of on any platform that DOESN'T use transparent/3D effects
     • You can't even HAVE themes on Windows (without serious hacks)
     • Modern UI layouts with XML support (Gtk+, Qt) that don't have resize/fullscreen glitches
  6. Applications:
     • You actually have a CHOICE in Linux. There are very many E-mail applications, for example, or media players, to choose from.
     • You can generally do more with Linux software. Even KMail beats Microsoft Outlook by far (seriously, have you ever seen the number of options it has? )
     • The software is actually designed to be usable, and not sellable. This means that it has more features that you might actually USE, and not features whose only purpose is to be printed on a retail box.
• Areas where Windows beats Linux radically:
  • People are used to it's design because it's what they start with (NOT because Linux is more difficult, btw)
  • Games
  • Big companies' attention
  • One API that is being developed by one company, therefore enabling great software interoperability
  • Monopoly
  • A huge group of fanboys

For me, the choice is easy. What is there to argue about. Everyone makes his/her own choice, and if that choice is a stupid one or ignorant one, it's the problem of that person.

 

[WizardStan]

I use Pidgin, the latest version, on Windows and can say that it supports neither file transfers (at least outgoing, incoming ones work) nor custom smilies (that the other person can actually see) in either Yahoo, AIM, or MSN.

There is a saying: "Linux is free only if your time is worthless"

While chatting with someone, select the Conversation menu, and halfway down is "send file". This currently works in AIM, YIM, and MSN.
On the buddy window, click the Tools menu, choose Smileys, click the add button. Add your custom smiley and the shortcut you want it to be. This works in MSN for certain. I could have sworn it also worked in AIM and YIM before, but seemingly not.
This is Pidgin 2.5.2. The smiley thing could be new, since I abhor them and disable at every opportunity, but I've been sending files with Pidgin for years.

edit: Oops, missed the "on Windows" part. I thought we were still talking about the Linux version. Can't help you there.

 

[WizardStan]

For me, the choice is easy. What is there to argue about. Everyone makes his/her own choice, and if that choice is a stupid one or ignorant one, it's the problem of that person.

I have no problem with people choosing Windows over Linux, same as I have no problem with people choosing Pepsi over Coke (even though we all know those people are crazy ) It's different purpose for different people.
What I do object to is the sweeping statement that no flavor of Linux is suitable for mass consumption, specifically for the previous reasons given (lack of consistency and supposed ease of use).
Difficulty with the install is a valid argument, but do you not have similar difficulties with Windows? Fully half the installs I've done over the years have required separate drivers for the ethernet card, either off an install CD or the internet. It's just an extra step I've had to remember to do: make sure I've got all the drivers before formatting the hard driver. I wouldn't expect an average person to remember to install all the drivers, codecs, and updates for Windows, anymore than I would expect them to be able to configure such things as the display driver and install "necessary" 3rd party plugins in Linux.

Saying "I had a friend who installed Linux and it crashed at the install" is a poor argument against Linux because there are many documented cases of Windows doing the exact same thing. No system should be judged on what it takes to get it function: judge the system on how well it behaves once it is fully operational.

 

[michaeljustman]

While we're on the subject.

Every time I've switched to linux for any amount of time, I've found certain "deal-breakers" that made me switch back to Windows. Although, when I installed Ubuntu for the first time (Edgy), everything did just work hardware-wise for me.

I was a little apalled that they decided to move to version 1.6 of X.org in Jaunty, when ATI just dropped so many legacy graphics cards to legacy support and the older versions of fglrx didn't work with the new X.org. (And don't get me started on PulseAudio problems.)

Anyway... what just worked 3 years ago, I had to fight to get working in the newest version.

Compiling upstream X.org and Mesa is definitely something I wouldn't expect my wife or my parents to be able to do and I'm certainly happy to let them continue to use Windows as it's what they're used to using.

Anyway, I'm proud to say that I've had no reason to boot into Windows for two weeks now.