Why Not Just *run* Debian?

[Squidge]

Current Pandora dev systems are based on Linux Kernel Version 2.6.22.

 

[ldesnogu]

Current Pandora dev systems are based on Linux Kernel Version 2.6.22.

Hum, does it mean it is TI kernel? I know, I am asking too much

 

[Squidge]

I can neither confirm nor deny that h34r:

 

[_VWV_]

Yeah, I do realise that, but it's kinda more secure to encrypt everything, isn't it? And since we discuss debian

If the information on the Pandora could involve you getting on a knock on your door from the CIA or NSA, then sure, otherwise it makes more sense to have a file on an sd card that just contains your sensitive stuff. Most people will simply format your card anyway (or have a quick sniff with a file viewer, not recognise it, and just delete the file to make room for other stuff).


Well, I don't think CIA or NSA will be interested in the content of my SDs, but I can easily imagine a situation when MIAA or RIAA will be quite interested. And according to recent precedent, police needs to find the file on your media to prove that you're guilty (an ip is not enough). Well then I can easily imagine a situation such as.. I downloaded a file and it occasionally turned out to be an illegal copy..in this case I'll need a watermark-resistant encryption algorithm like aes-xts.. just in case. If it turns out to be impossible to use a 2.6.24 kernel I'll have to use CBC with ESSIV.. though aes-xts seems better to me..
Yes, it isn't very important, but it could be an additional point for Pandora.. coz I think if it supports aes-xts then it'll belong to a-not-so-big group of handheld devices to support it. It's always nice to belong to a small group that can do something special. So if it's easy to implement then please don't forget about it, if it's not, ok then, I'll survive without xts.

 

[Squidge]

Don't you think your being just a little paranoid?

Do you also fully encrypt the contents of all your pcs at home?

 

[slint]

Swap in Pandora isn't soo pointless. Reaction time of SD cards should be very much better than the reaction time of hard drives.

Because reaction time is the biggest problem of swap, it should be very usable.

The only problem should be the decreased Lifetime of the SD card. But with the prices of today no problem.

Since there will be 2 sd slots, I'm planning to buy 2 SD cards: 8-or-16Gigs (as cheap as possible) for / and /home + 256-or-512 (as fast as possible, whatever the price per mbite will be) for swap.



Reaction time may not be an issue, but write speed is. Desktop HDs write at 50-70 MB/s. The fastest SDHC cards write at 6 MB/S. SDHC read speeds are considerably faster, but still far below HD speeds. There goes any performance boost the swap might give you.

The swapped apps, that are usally in the background don't need much speed. And reaction time is much more important than writing speed as most datas in swap are very fragmented. Thats why swap is so slow with hds.

What you mean is SDHC class 6, the highest class. It only means 6MB/s or higher. There are many cards with around 20MB/s read and write.

 

[_VWV_]

Don't you think your being just a little paranoid?

Do you also fully encrypt the contents of all your pcs at home?

No, I don't think so. I've been playing around with encryption stuff in Linux for no obvious reason.. just for fun. I do realize that's too much, coz I don't keep any top secret documents on my media. But if it's just for fun for me it doesn't mean that nobody would want strong encryption.

Yes, I do everything by the exception of /boot. My games with encryption were quite successful, why should I remove the encryption now? You see, I didn't notice any decrease in performance. Once set the encryption just works, it doesn’t need my attention... why should I remove it? If there will be a 2.6.24 kernel available for the Pandora, I'll encrypt everything there.. just because..why not?

 

[GoatZilla]

For starters, I am posting this from an EEE PC which, has an 800x480 resolution. I am running Debian from a 4gb SDHC card. I have no complaints about the performance of this setup, aside from the occasional badly behaved javascript or flash plugin in Firefox. I also happen to have a N770 and the resolution is workable. It gets the job done.

I've watched the GP2x scene for a while, but I could never really get interested in the device because there wasn't much outright Debian support. Granted, the resources on the GP2x were a little tight (and apparently made tighter by the fact that people would not let go of the extra 32mb and allow the main system to freely use it for fear of losing the coprocessor). Gaming's great and all; I have a PSP and an NDS myself, but there's more out there than just strictly gaming.

Curiously enough, the same "Debian or some other hand crafted purpose-driven distribution" debate came up on the EEE forums, although I haven't checked that thread in a long time. A lot of the same arguments were used there that I see here; much of it shares the same baseless, unsubstantiated quality of argument.

Now, I also happen to have a Linksys NSLU2 which I also run Debian (testing) on. I de-underclocked it so now it's running at 266mhz; the rest of the hardware, i.e. ARM/Xscale is stock. I have Debian installed onto a USB flash drive.

For starters, a cold boot seems to take about 1.5 minutes. Unfortunately, I don't know off the top of my head how this time is consumed in whatever pre-boot stuff is going on, (I guess I could look it up), but the time from when I first see signs of life on the flash drive to when the dhcp request is made is about 40 seconds. It really isn't that bad.

As far as memory usage, here's the memory information:

CODE

total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 29856 16060 13796 0 1596 7216
-/+ buffers/cache: 7248 22608
Swap: 120476 0 120476
PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND
1 ? Ss 0:05 init [2]
2 ? S< 0:00 [kthreadd]
3 ? SN 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0]
4 ? S< 0:00 [events/0]
5 ? S< 0:00 [khelper]
38 ? S< 0:00 [kblockd/0]
39 ? S< 0:00 [kseriod]
52 ? S 0:00 [pdflush]
53 ? S 0:00 [pdflush]
54 ? S< 0:00 [kswapd0]
55 ? S< 0:00 [aio/0]
152 ? S< 0:01 [mtdblockd]
175 ? S< 0:00 [kpsmoused]
521 ? S< 0:00 [khubd]
601 ? S< 0:00 [scsi_eh_0]
604 ? S< 0:00 [usb-storage]
891 ? S< 0:00 [kjournald]
1053 ? S<s 0:01 udevd --daemon
1617 ? S<s 0:00 dhclient3 -pf /var/run/dhclient.eth0.pid -lf /var/lib/dhcp3/dhclient.eth0.leases eth0
1646 ? Ss 0:00 /sbin/syslogd
1653 ? Ss 0:00 /sbin/klogd -x
1665 ? Ss 0:00 /usr/sbin/dropbear -d /etc/dropbear/dropbear_dss_host_key -r /etc/dropbear/dropbear_rsa_host_key -p 222
1686 ? Ss 0:00 /usr/sbin/cron
1711 ? Ss 0:01 /usr/sbin/dropbear -d /etc/dropbear/dropbear_dss_host_key -r /etc/dropbear/dropbear_rsa_host_key -p 222
1712 pts/0 Ss 0:02 -bash
1727 pts/0 R+ 0:00 ps ax




On a 32mb machine, yeah, it's a little tight... But on a 128mb machine? If, in turn, I gain quick access to tens of thousands of software packages ready to go, I'd say it's worth it.

Now, I haven't seen this argument made in this thread specifically, but I'll go ahead and go after it. Sure, out of tens of thousands of packages that Debian has, I'll probably wind up using only a handful. The problem is what handful is used will vary from user to user -- it's like the dilemma facing OpenOffice. Most MS Office users only use a small handful of the power features. The problem is across the board, different users have different features that they just can't live without.

Making your own little distribution is a noble and educational exercise, but a LOT of people wind up using Debian because they eventually get lives... Some of us just don't like 1) learning/administering a different distribution, and 2) going in and pulling up a development system to compile some esoteric yet necessary package which is already available on Debian anyways.

There are lots of little specialized embedded distros that come and go. They just fall by the wayside. Sure, you find some savvy survivors like OpenWRT (and those are usually supported by very large end-user bases, something you guys do not have), but for every one of those, you can find a handful of dead ends. (*cough* GP2x...)

If you really want to get a lot of people interested in it, which is probably a good thing, well, there's a large Debian user base waiting for you.

 

[JakeK]

This is going to sound weird but can someone explain to me what a Debian ARM package is? I need to get in with the lingo here, I have no knowledge of Linux stuff.

 

[atomicthumbs]

This is going to sound weird but can someone explain to me what a Debian ARM package is? I need to get in with the lingo here, I have no knowledge of Linux stuff.

A package is an archive file with a standardized format.

Packages are handled by package managers, such as apt and aptitude. Package managers read the package and decide how to install it. They may also install other packages that the original package requires, and the requirements for those.

A Debian package is a package ending in .deb, which somes from a Debian or Debian-based repository (place online to store packages that lets people download them).

Package managers connect to repositories.

There are two kinds of package: source and binary. Source is used much less. Binary packages are differentiated by the computer architecture that the program inside is built for: i.e. ARM (GP2X, Pandora, others), x86 (normal PCs), z90 (IBM supercomputers), and many more.

 

[nubie]

This is going to sound weird but can someone explain to me what a Debian ARM package is? I need to get in with the lingo here, I have no knowledge of Linux stuff.

Most of the time when facing a new concept I spend a bit of time with google and see what I can come up with.

Debian is a linux distribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian

As far as I know a "package" is like an installer for windows, but the beauty of linux is that most software is free, so built in to a distribution (like Debian) is a program that will get and install any program with a few keystrokes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_management_system

ARM is a type of processor (PC's use x86, the old Mac's used PowerPC, the new macs use x86), the GBA is an example of an ARM system. Your software needs to be written for the proper architecture or it probably won't work seamlessly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

So a Debian ARM package would come from a large repository online and install just about any software imaginable with a simple command from you. Obviously this would be great benefit to a computer like the Pandora, you could install GPS programs, CD burners, just about anything you could imagine, if it is in the repository.

Linux has a steep learning curve, but if it is working you don't have to know much more than how to use it.

 

[Zarneth]

Obviously this would be great benefit to a computer like the Pandora, you could install GPS programs, CD burners, just about anything you could imagine, if it is in the repository.
I like how the two examples you mentioned are things the panodra doesn't have. (and would need to be connected externally)

 

[nubie]

Obviously this would be great benefit to a computer like the Pandora, you could install GPS programs, CD burners, just about anything you could imagine, if it is in the repository.
I like how the two examples you mentioned are things the panodra doesn't have. (and would need to be connected externally)

Me too B) .

 

[JakeK]

This is going to sound weird but can someone explain to me what a Debian ARM package is? I need to get in with the lingo here, I have no knowledge of Linux stuff.

A package is an archive file with a standardized format.

Packages are handled by package managers, such as apt and aptitude. Package managers read the package and decide how to install it. They may also install other packages that the original package requires, and the requirements for those.

A Debian package is a package ending in .deb, which somes from a Debian or Debian-based repository (place online to store packages that lets people download them).

Package managers connect to repositories.

There are two kinds of package: source and binary. Source is used much less. Binary packages are differentiated by the computer architecture that the program inside is built for: i.e. ARM (GP2X, Pandora, others), x86 (normal PCs), z90 (IBM supercomputers), and many more.



Ahhhhh thank you, makes more sense now. Plus I know what this x86 thing means.

Thanks also nubie, yeah Linux does have a steep learning curve. My brother attempted to install Linux and drivers etc for a robot and had a horrible time. It tarnished his views on Linux to say the least. Maybe I will grow to like Linux (after all it is what is on Pandora and Gp2X).

 

[Zarneth]

I've. My brother attempted to install Linux and drivers etc for a robot and had a horrible time. It tarnished his views on Linux to say the least. Maybe I will grow to like Linux (after all it is what is on Pandora and Gp2X).
Wait! You can install drivers on linux?

I find with linux it's generally a matter of things working out of the box (it's infinitely better than Win XP on this aspect), or you're pretty much screwed.

 

[nubie]

I've. My brother attempted to install Linux and drivers etc for a robot and had a horrible time. It tarnished his views on Linux to say the least. Maybe I will grow to like Linux (after all it is what is on Pandora and Gp2X).
Wait! You can install drivers on linux?

I find with linux it's generally a matter of things working out of the box (it's infinitely better than Win XP on this aspect), or you're pretty much screwed.

That is why he had a horrible time, I have tried several times to make a DVR, but I am not shelling out $1xx for a video card that "might work great" on one of the Linux media center distros, or $2xx for a digital one now that the Analog broadcasts are set to end in the US.

If you need your hardware to work, you either need to make your own drivers or just hope that you can make it work.

I have had to pass kernel instructions before to bone-stock Intel systems you think should just work, but no, the drivers wouldn't identify the plain old Intel video. So Linux is as powerful as it is complex.

 

[ldesnogu]

That is why he had a horrible time, I have tried several times to make a DVR, but I am not shelling out $1xx for a video card that "might work great" on one of the Linux media center distros, or $2xx for a digital one now that the Analog broadcasts are set to end in the US.

If you need your hardware to work, you either need to make your own drivers or just hope that you can make it work.

I have had to pass kernel instructions before to bone-stock Intel systems you think should just work, but no, the drivers wouldn't identify the plain old Intel video. So Linux is as powerful as it is complex.

My understanding is that the situation with Linux is no worse than what people experience with Vista, where, for instance, most Creative Labs sound cards don't work properly.

Frankly, I have had less issues with Linux than with XP SP2 as far as drivers are concerned. Granted I don't use exotic hardware :lol:

 

[flatmush]

Frankly, I have had less issues with Linux than with XP SP2 as far as drivers are concerned. Granted I don't use exotic hardware :lol:

My pc is relatively new (AMD64 Dual 4200, 2GB DDR 800, Nvidia 8600GT OC, nForce mobo, etc) and almost every distro I have tried failed to boot (Incl. Ubuntu 7.10), whereas windows xp ran even before I installed the drivers off a disk.

 

[JakeK]

Drivers or something, I know he had to change/add code to Linux to make things work but he also had extreme trouble just trying to get it too run after install.

XP has worked beautifully straight away. Vista is still finding its feet as Linux would have done some time ago.

Which OS you use depends on what you are using it for. Having now seen the potential and changability of Linux on a handheld I might be more open armed than previous. Linux might become a project for me when I get a good PC and a low end one to put Linux on.

 

[Zarneth]

My understanding is that the situation with Linux is no worse than what people experience with Vista, where, for instance, most Creative Labs sound cards don't work properly.

Frankly, I have had less issues with Linux than with XP SP2 as far as drivers are concerned. Granted I don't use exotic hardware :lol:
My experience with linux drivers has also been far better than with windows. There were a few things I've tried and failed with (ie, ATI) but they're things that are commonly known to have bad compatibility so I knew what to expect. On the other hand I bought a bluetooth dongle. Plug and play in linux. Came to use it in windows though and I couldn't find the driver disk. Spent hours trying to find a driver for windows, tried many random ones, no luck at all. Linux only for that one. Then there's my printer, I got an epson because they're said to have good linux support. Plug it in, instantly ready to print. Sure windows has drivers avaliable but I'd have to spend 10 minutes finding the disk, or downloading them.

I've also seen a friend install linux on a laptop and have Wifi, Compiz and everything all working by default, nice and smooth. (on 11mb or so video memory too) The main thing you need to do is research what brands have good compatibility, and be careful of bleeding edge or exotic hardware. If the drivers are there though linux is the sweetest OS ever.