Tim shafer kickstart project, adventure games are dead.

[WizardStan]

I need the libpng dependency for pretty much everything. Can't get configure to realize it's there, even though I can manually run the test. It compiles fine without libpng, but almost everything these days uses png for something, so most stuff I tried just doesn't work.


Actually the reason I've been trying to compile Wine is because Legend of Grimrock has a dependence on a bizarre DirectX graphics format that Wine doesn't really seem to support, but someone has posted a patch that may allow it to work.


But this is all completely off topic. Sorry, I'll stop.

 

[Ian J]

Something strange happening with the Double Fine Kickstarter game.

They raised nearly 10 times the required budget but it's still going to be under budget.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/07/double-fine-adventure-kickstarter-over-budget-delayed/

 

[Asiyura]

Well, that's not really a first.

Space Citizen by Chris Roberts is still selling "game packs" and "addons" to funders and new people, even if they're at more than 12 millions $.

The kickstarter only contributed for 2 millions and making the project popular, most of the actual funding was through their own website.

In a game there are always good reasons to ask for more money : better/more artwork, deeper gameplay (requiring a more complex code), larger universe, …

(One of the reason Space Citizen asked for more money was to get their own motion capture studio )

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

^^^^so they could motion capture themselves wading through all that money?

 

[ekianjo]

Something strange happening with the Double Fine Kickstarter game.

They raised nearly 10 times the required budget but it's still going to be under budget.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/07/double-fine-adventure-kickstarter-over-budget-delayed/

Well that's another proof, if you needed one, that creators NEED publishers to put constraints to what they do - especially for big games. Running out of money is ridiculous - it shows a huge lack of planning and basic project management skills. It would be no surprise if it were Craig, but I'd expect much more from DF - very disappointing. 

 

[Asiyura]

Creators don't need a publisher, they need a project planner!

Publisher don't want creators to make good games, they want games that will sell a lot (with "collector editions" that will sell for 90+ € with crap that cost 1€ to be produced in China and DLC that would have been unlockable content on previous generations games). And, if some "blockbusters" are good games, most of them are just the same shit even more dumbed down (call of crysis gears : modern ops 12).

I'm happy that creators try to get rid of publishers, now, they need to learn how to manage a project to respect time and budget constraints.

 

[ekianjo]

I'm happy that creators try to get rid of publishers, now, they need to learn how to manage a project to respect time and budget constraints...

...  even though Tim and his team have DOZENS OF YEARS of experience making games?

They're just incapable of self management at this stage.

 

[Timstertoo]

I'm also not very impressed by the manouvring they are doing right now. With putting out half the game in January but if you don't want to play it because you want to wait for the full game that is ok too yada yada.

I backed this one and the new Shadowrun and it seems the Shadowrun people have a much better grasp on their project.

I really wonder where the money went. They kept the team pretty fluid with people stepping in and out of other projects so it might have kept the whole studio running and not just the hours spent on the Kickstarter game.

With 3 million you can have 60 guys working full time for 50k for a year. Shouldn't you be able to churn out a decent point and click for that? It's not as if it's going to have cutting edge 3d world rendering with fully realistic physics engine etc etc.

Although the chance that I underestimate it is of course quite high seeing as I'm not burdened with any experience in building a game like that. 

Wait, that's not true! I built a point and click adventure in javascript with 8 rooms, 3 npc's, and 6 items. In black and white. With icons I found on the net. Took me three days so if we extrapolate from there.. 

 

[Asiyura]

If you've been used to work for dozen of years in a system where the publisher shout at you when your game takes too long and/or too much money to make, or looks not enough mainstream, you can't develop the skills to manage a project from A to Z.

I think that's why Tim and his team, even with their lengthy experience have failed in those aspects.

 

[ekianjo]

If you've been used to work for dozen of years in a system where the publisher shout at you when your game takes too long and/or too much money to make, or looks not enough mainstream, you can't develop the skills to manage a project from A to Z.

I think that's why Tim and his team, even with their lengthy experience have failed in those aspects.

How about managing money then?

You know exactly how much you are spending every month. How come you don't know you will run out of money after x months? it's like super basic maths.

 

[WizardStan]

Because it isn't a fixed cost and isn't even all known up front. How many characters do you have? How many voice actors do you need to hire for them? How many lines does each have to say? You don't just hire a voice actor and have them on staff the entire time. As things change, so do requirements. Maybe you started out needing four actors for a week, but by the 8th month the amount of dialog has doubled and you've got two more characters that need voices. Then in the 12th month is when that cost actually comes due.

Similar stories with art assets, motion capture, sound and music. Your development costs aren't even necessarily fixed. You hire on more programmers later to handle growing requirements, and a dedicated QA team as the project comes together.

When working with a publisher, the publisher says "you have $X for voice acting" and the producer works backwards to figure out how much voice talent they can afford. That's what was missing. They didn't set their budget ahead of things, they just set about making the game that they wanted to make without restrictions. Turns out restrictions are a necessary evil.

 

[Asiyura]

^What he said!

You know in real life you can't manage your money to the cent.

Things break and you have to replace them, you go to the restaurant and the bill is a bit larger than you had thought, …

There are always unforeseen events that mess with plans.

Lately my girlfriend and I bought some furnitures… just after that the exhaust of the car broke.

We had to ask our parents for some money to pay the car repairs.

It was unexpected, we needed more money than we have. No one could have predicted that.

 

[ekianjo]

Because it isn't a fixed cost and isn't even all known up front. How many characters do you have? How many voice actors do you need to hire for them? How many lines does each have to say? You don't just hire a voice actor and have them on staff the entire time. As things change, so do requirements. Maybe you started out needing four actors for a week, but by the 8th month the amount of dialog has doubled and you've got two more characters that need voices. Then in the 12th month is when that cost actually comes due.


Similar stories with art assets, motion capture, sound and music. Your development costs aren't even necessarily fixed. You hire on more programmers later to handle growing requirements, and a dedicated QA team as the project comes together.


When working with a publisher, the publisher says "you have $X for voice acting" and the producer works backwards to figure out how much voice talent they can afford. That's what was missing. They didn't set their budget ahead of things, they just set about making the game that they wanted to make without restrictions. Turns out restrictions are a necessary evil.

What you are saying is that they don't have a design document upfront? is this a joke?

i Deal with budgets and you always plan for BUFFER in your cost estimations. That's financial management 101

 

[WizardStan]

What you are saying is that they don't have a design document upfront? is this a joke?

No, they didn't have a design document up front. I don't know why you would think that was a joke or why it would be entirely surprising. The kickstarter was very clear on the intentions: Tim wanted to produce a modest game, he had an idea though it wasn't complete, worked out the estimated costs of that idea, and came to a $400'000 estimate. If that's what he had gotten we'd be having an entirely different discussion right now, and quite possibly playing a modest game that only cost about $400'000 to produce right now.He got several times what he asked for. His budget was vastly increased, the original game he wanted to write could now be expanded. His original ideas blown out of the water, he and his team then spent several months working on improvements. He didn't have anything restricting his creativity anymore, and what started out as a modest game for $400'000 ballooned.

i Deal with budgets and you always plan for BUFFER in your cost estimations. That's financial management 101

And you expect artists and developers who, though very good at what they do, have never had to deal with such huge financial allocations to just suddenly be able to know what they're doing first time? There's a very good reason why many people who win the lottery end up penniless within a few years: call it "financial management 101" if you want, but a lot of people don't have the background in dealing with large sums of money and simply can't handle it.As far as I know this type of production has never been attempted before. This is the first time a major studio has basically been given free reign to do whatever they wanted, and as such mistakes were made, mistakes which will be learned from, hopefully.

edit: furthermore, even in restricted environments this is standard procedure in any artistic endeavor, including big name movies. Ideas change. There are rewrites, scenes get scrapped and new ones are added. It's not uncommon for a movie to have multiple endings simply because a previously recorded one didn't work the way the director wanted, or for them to realize some scenes are lacking and they need to hire a new actor to fill some crucial role to the story. Or that certain special effects don't cost what was estimated. If you're lucky and have a good producer, you can cut the right stuff and come in under budget. If not things will get away and the budget will exceed estimates. There is nothing unique in the way Tim started his approach to the project, the problem was that he didn't seem to have a single person to set limits. If this is going to be a viable business model in the future that is the one thing that will need to change: companies will need to hire someone with the Producer level finances to tell the developers "no".