This Thing Just Killed The Pandora For Me

[droneb]

@mali

i just wished he was as funny as Gerald, but he is plain boring and no way "annoying" that makes you want to respond.

 

[Exophase]

Don't want it both ways. I'm still not sure what approach to take to open these peoples eyes though. Their clearly enchanted with a lie.

Oh god, so first you were "trolling" but now you're serious about Open Pandora being a lie?

You're ridiculous.

So which is it, are you a troll in order to show you don't actually have any serious investment in illogical arguments, or are you serious in order to show that you're not just a prick?

Seems like either way you lost.

 

[droneb]

just reminded me.

@CJ

 

[crackerjacker]

Oh god, so first you were "trolling" but now you're serious about Open Pandora being a lie?

I have always been serious about the openness of pandora being a lie.

While I was previously under the impression that any discenting commentary was considered trolling, thanks to our debate, I no longer beleive that to be the case.

So which is it, are you a troll in order to show you don't actually have any serious investment in illogical arguments, or are you serious in order to show that you're not just a prick?

I happen to think my arguments are quite logical, as evidenced by the fact that you nor anyone else has yet defeated them, save the one about the merit of trolls.

 

[WizardStan]

I have always been serious about the openness of pandora being a lie.

What lie? No one from the OpenPandora team have ever once said that the Pandora itself is open source. In fact, they've said quite the opposite, that the schematics are, and shall for the foreseeable future be, closed. "Open" in the name "OpenPandora" doesn't refer to your ability to copy the device, but to do whatever you want with the device you have purchased. MWeston even went so far as to build solder points for a lot of hacks into the board, and left GPIO pins on the EXT connector and back of the lid. It's open because what you can do with it is restricted only by your abilities, not because anyone can come along and clone it without effort. If there are people such as yourself that can't understand that, it isn't the teams fault; they've made their stance pretty clear.
The reason it's not completely open is because they have invested a great deal of money into the project. They can't afford to have it go wrong, it would bankrupt them. That's why they're stressing out so much about this WiFi issue, because it could be the final straw that makes 3 well intentioned guys lose their houses. And if someone else were to come along, take the board design, slap a cheap case together, and release a "Pandora" before them, that would seal their fate even faster. That's why the hardware isn't completely open source, because it could potentially kill them.
ED has said that they may release the schematics, eventually, maybe, but I don't believe they would ever consider it until after they've recovered their money, after they've paid off their bank debts and aren't in danger of losing their houses.

 

[Exophase]

I have always been serious about the openness of pandora being a lie.

While I was previously under the impression that any discenting commentary was considered trolling, thanks to our debate, I no longer beleive that to be the case.

You've been on the internet this long and you don't know what a troll is? Huhh.

I happen to think my arguments are quite logical, as evidenced by the fact that you nor anyone else has yet defeated them, save the one about the merit of trolls.

Actually it's more that you have yet to admit defeat, and causing that is not exactly a fair goal given that some people will remain convinced of their delusions no matter how wrong they are.

I would say that it's quite the contrary - you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence to support your claims. All you have done is concocted a scenario which can be true, but your argument is not that it isn't impossible, but that it's statistically probable (to an alarming extent, apparently). You haven't given any analysis to demonstrate this, or even any kind of appeal to common sense. The best you've done is drawn very poor correlations and made defenses that are of highly questionable validity to begin with, such as the claim of a two year statute of limitations on fraud. I'm saying that you haven't even provided evidence that this EXISTS, but I could just as easily show that such a thing is irrelevant - given that Open Pandora has relevant stake holders in at least five different countries to renew any action of fraud by taking new orders all the time (to fill in canceled ones).

Your other main point of attacks have been fanciful comparisons to notable figures such as Bernie Madoff - this approach is basically akin to Godwin's law. Nothing Madoff did is even remotely similar to what Open Pandora is doing in even the most superficial manner possible - but even if your comparison held water it falls flat on its face given that Madoff is currently serving multiple life sentences. For a "Ponzi scam" Pandora manages to fail spectacularly, given that not only have the inputs to it been non-renewable, but they have also readily and without a single reported failure given refunds to anyone who has asked. Care to show me a scam that has operated this way?

So let's keep track. So far you've relied on awful comparisons, but have washed over their ill validity so you can focus on the emotional impact they provide. You're nothing more than a conspiracy theorist, a paranoid individual who likes to tell stories. Sadly, like many conspiracy theorists you also have a superiority complex that causes you to feel that you have an enlightened viewpoint over the unwashed masses, and that it's acceptable for you to get a little frustrated with them when they reject your strategies to correct them. Given that you're only trying to help them.

But unfortunately it doesn't stop here. Next you bring in repetitive ad hominem, then finally attempt a psychological assault. The worst thing about this is that you have this awful tendency to resemble your own attacks - poor grammar and spelling anyone? And the whole buyer's remorse thing feels like a blatant case of projection. From where I stand I find it entirely likely that you're bitter and feel cheated because you believed that Pandora would be out and it isn't. The only way you can come to terms with this is by painting Open Pandora as some diabolical masterminds who have tricked you with a deliberate scam. It's okay to be wronged if the other person is evil, but misjudging an honest attempt just makes you a fool, right?

The fools you seem to think everyone here is. I think the biggest lapse in your understanding is your assumption that people actually care like you do. Everyone has made a one time - do you understand this what this means? - payment, mostly several months or over a year ago, and have stuck things out this long. They can get a refund at any time if they so desire, but most really don't care, because the money is just not that big of a deal. So what exactly are you trying to accomplish by convincing them that Pandora is a scam? It doesn't really make any difference. People have decided a long time ago, using reasonable assessments of the situation, that this thing COULD be a reality one day, and that's enough for them. If it fails then oh well - if it was a scam, then the end result is the same. You're just wasting your time here. But I'm not sure how much you're going to realize this just by me saying it.

I say this a lot, but when I see people like you posting here it really rings ever true for me - the more troublesome thing in this world is not stupid people, but people who think they are much smarter than they are. And you just aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.

 

[crackerjacker]

That one should keep me busy for a while. While I will no doubt have to concede certain points, don't interpret my temporary leave of absence as a concession in toto. I will get back to you. It may have to be in IM though, as I see by your invoking of Godwin's that you feel this thread is expired.

 

[WizardStan]

I see by your invoking of Godwin's that you feel this thread is expired.

That's not what Godwin's law says.

 

[Exophase]

Oh no, feel free to do this out in the open, I think you owe that much to the forum. I doubt anyone cares about salvaging this thread, unlike the previous one.

 

[Jourdy288]

We don't have access to the schematics in order to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands (read: bootleggers).

It's a game console, not a nuclear weapon. If it was really "Open Source", there would'nt be any wrong hands.(read "Linux" and "Open Source")

Anybody could freely and openly contribute to it's creation. It would belong to everybody.

To me, the most important thing is that the Pandora gets made. I don't care if it's made by Craig and Ed or thousand pimply faced geeks living their mothers basement, just as long as it gets made.

And in case you haven't noticed, there's been lot's of community input on the hardware, even recently. You just weren't around for it.

I noticed a bunch of people ruminating on what they think might be the problem, but I don't know how much of a contribution that actually makes to the end result. Some of those people might actually be able to solve the problem given a decent chance and access to all the pertinent information.

Plus, on the Nintonysoft official forums, you're not even allowed to talk about LED modding, let alone potentially converting the devices the sell into something different.

Who are they, and what on earth do they have to do with the Pandora? (google gives zero)

No, there ARE wrong hands, like the people who bootleg stuff... You know, these guys?

There are people talking about what might be the problem, and you failed to note that their input is, in fact, used. And they have helped solve problems before, just more remotely.

Nintonysoft is just what I refer to the big corporations as, with their own proprietary nonsense, corruption, etc. I'd imagine somebody of your caliber would understand! Perhaps not, on second thought.

 

[crackerjacker]

Oh no, feel free to do this out in the open, I think you owe that much to the forum. I doubt anyone cares about salvaging this thread, unlike the previous one.

It's a done deal, but right now it's friday night and I've got people to do and places to be. I should post back tommarow.

There is some seriously good commentary in there by the way. Props.

May I do you justice in return.

Flame on..........

 

[crackerjacker]

Nintonysoft is just what I refer to the big corporations as, with their own proprietary nonsense, corruption, etc.

Oh right, gotcha. There are a lot of whacky corp. names out there; I wasn't prepared to draw an inference.

 

[Aninhumer]

8/10 - Would rage again.

 

[crackerjacker]

I am not above admitting defeat. I will not, however, lay down for it or make a habit of it. If I am defeated, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will get something out of it. I have already demonstrated my ability to do this and any accusation to the contrary is unfounded. That being said, here is my play. Please forgive any grammar or spellings errors, as I am not a wordsmith.

The aforementioned story is a hyperbole. I sincerely hope that nobody thinks otherwise. The correlations drawn between Madoff and the Pandora Project were the most fantastic that I could come up with and were designed to increase the severity of the emotional response. Any claims or facts within the hyperbole are indeed irrelevant. I would like to point out though that the plausibility of the scenario, however ridiculous, is a clear indicator that there is a disparity between the presentation of the Pandora Project and its reality.

I find it strange that you would accuse me of repetitive ad hominem. I intentionally deferred any argument substantiated with the ad hominem method. The internet provides a significant amount of anonymity through proxy that would render debates sustained on such arguments moot. Any appearance of a psychological assault is only that. I never singled anyone out for beratement, but rather operated on an all comers welcome principle. I would be the last person to criticize a forum member for spelling and grammar mistakes short of word vomit. It is a forum, not a formal. There is no need to be anal retentive about the structure and spelling of other members comments. If however the meaning of a sentence cannot be ascertained by the third read, it may as well have not been said.

At this time, nobody that ponied up the cash could be considered a "buyer". The Pandora project is an investment that may or may not pay out with a usable gadget. The only feelings that I have concerning the Pandora’s tardiness, are those of sympathy for any investor that was suggestively mislead as to how the Pandora would actually come into existence and too what extent they could act to mitigate it's failure. In a normal investment scenario, an accredited broker acts on behalf of an investment group to validate the viability of an investment and its expenditures. With the Pandora team acting as the broker and object of funds, a conflict of interest is created. Since the conflict of interest is not clearly stated, we cannot say that people are making an educated decision. Without the oversight of an uninterested party or a transparent view of the way funds are being utilized, it becomes impossible to determine whether or not fraud is taking place. Regardless of a person’s willingness to engage in a risk or their attestiment that they understand what they are getting into, it's not fair to ask someone to carry such a burden without reciprocation of accountability. These disparities and omissions inevitably lead to a sense of resentment in a not insignificant percentage of the people that explore the Pandora as an option. After all, they have been lied too. Even if they are only aware of the lie on a subconscious level, the need to act out on it may be overwhelming.

All of this leads us to the true nature of the foolishness that occurs on the forum. It is not the ignorance of problems, but rather the way you deal with them. Instead of exerting your "open" influence on the rest of the community and the devs to fix the presentation and bring it more in line with the reality of the project, you choose a course of management. You have built defense mechanisms to banish any dissenters with heckling and name calling. You label anybody that asks difficult questions a troll, and generally disregard the emotions of anybody that is not a hundred percent onboard with the project. Of course, I can't say this about everyone, but some of the members have behaved in a shameful manor.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but rather a truth seeker with a sense of duty to enlighten those who have not yet benefited from my life experience. Life is a process; you start out knowing nothing and finish it knowing that you know nothing. It is a self defeating exercise to reject wisdom simply because you don't like the source. It is with a heavy heart that I admit that in all likelihood I am wasting my time here. It was my duty to try and make the world a better place, but success was not a requirement, or a foregone conclusion.

Your clever contortion of a colloquialism into a personal attack is entertaining, but meaningless. You could direct that insult at just about anybody at some time or another, including yourself. This greatly undermines its effectiveness as a supporting argument. I am honestly surprised you included it.

 

[Exophase]

The aforementioned story is a hyperbole. I sincerely hope that nobody thinks otherwise. The correlations drawn between Madoff and the Pandora Project were the most fantastic that I could come up with and were designed to increase the severity of the emotional response. Any claims or facts within the hyperbole are indeed irrelevant. I would like to point out though that the plausibility of the scenario, however ridiculous, is a clear indicator that there is a disparity between the presentation of the Pandora Project and its reality.

You went on to say that while it's possible that OP is sincerely trying/well meaning and simply failing, it is very unlikely. Meaning that you did outright say that you believe (beyond any reasonable doubt) that they are deliberately scamming people. The exact nature of this scam is irrelevant.

I find it strange that you would accuse me of repetitive ad hominem. I intentionally deferred any argument substantiated with the ad hominem method. The internet provides a significant amount of anonymity through proxy that would render debates sustained on such arguments moot. Any appearance of a psychological assault is only that. I never singled anyone out for beratement, but rather operated on an all comers welcome principle. I would be the last person to criticize a forum member for spelling and grammar mistakes short of word vomit. It is a forum, not a formal. There is no need to be anal retentive about the structure and spelling of other members comments. If however the meaning of a sentence cannot be ascertained by the third read, it may as well have not been said.

Okay, and what does "you're evidence of failure of the educational system" fall under? You've dished that out to mali twice, as if you had forgotten you said it the first time. Of course it's strange that you say this given that he lives in a country which has an educational system I doubt you're very familiar with.

At this time, nobody that ponied up the cash could be considered a "buyer". The Pandora project is an investment that may or may not pay out with a usable gadget.

Meaningless semantics. Anything someone purchases may fail to work as intended or never even arrive. The sun could also explode tomorrow. What you continue to fail to present is any kind of statistical analysis, you just want people to believe that Pandora is much more likely than not not going to happen.

The only feelings that I have concerning the Pandora's tardiness, are those of sympathy for any investor that was suggestively mislead as to how the Pandora would actually come into existence and too what extent they could act to mitigate it's failure.

Just because you feel misled doesn't mean everyone else does.

In a normal investment scenario, an accredited broker acts on behalf of an investment group to validate the viability of an investment and its expenditures.

This is not an "investment" like that at all, and if you tried to place a $330 investment with a broker they'd laugh at you.

With the Pandora team acting as the broker and object of funds, a conflict of interest is created. Since the conflict of interest is not clearly stated, we cannot say that people are making an educated decision. Without the oversight of an uninterested party or a transparent view of the way funds are being utilized, it becomes impossible to determine whether or not fraud is taking place. Regardless of a person's willingness to engage in a risk or their attestiment that they understand what they are getting into, it's not fair to ask someone to carry such a burden without reciprocation of accountability. These disparities and omissions inevitably lead to a sense of resentment in a not insignificant percentage of the people that explore the Pandora as an option. After all, they have been lied too. Even if they are only aware of the lie on a subconscious level, the need to act out on it may be overwhelming.

You have this awful tendency to make an invalid analogy then spend a lot of effort forming an argument that relies on it not being invalid...

All of this leads us to the true nature of the foolishness that occurs on the forum. It is not the ignorance of problems, but rather the way you deal with them. Instead of exerting your "open" influence on the rest of the community and the devs to fix the presentation and bring it more in line with the reality of the project, you choose a course of management. You have built defense mechanisms to banish any dissenters with heckling and name calling. You label anybody that asks difficult questions a troll, and generally disregard the emotions of anybody that is not a hundred percent onboard with the project. Of course, I can't say this about everyone, but some of the members have behaved in a shameful manor.

And? Yes, there are blind fanboys, and I don't see how what that has to do with anything. There are also plenty of people who openly criticize OP (myself included). You want OP to "fix the presentation" but I have a difficult time understanding what it is they could be doing better than they are right now. Of course you seem to think everything they say is a lie (without evidence), so how exactly are they supposed to do things correctly anymore?

Everything you're saying here seems far outside the scope of the issue. You put forth some ridiculous scenario about how OP could be scamming everyone, probably to make a point that people are too gullible. I said that your scenario is ridiculous and invalid and gave several reasons why, which you didn't really adequately counter. You went on to push things further and start additional arguments about relativity, started a thread about how you were really just doing it to annoy people, then recanted that. Then you come here and start talking about how it's others who are behaving shamefully.

Yes, it's confusing, but the basic issue should still be the same thing you originally presented with: the likelihood that Pandora is a deliberate scam. All this stuff about expectations or board conduct or enlightening people is a diversion.

As far as troll labeling goes, I believe you were the one to label yourself that.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but rather a truth seeker with a sense of duty to enlighten those who have not yet benefited from my life experience. Life is a process; you start out knowing nothing and finish it knowing that you know nothing. It is a self defeating exercise to reject wisdom simply because you don't like the source. It is with a heavy heart that I admit that in all likelihood I am wasting my time here. It was my duty to try and make the world a better place, but success was not a requirement, or a foregone conclusion.

In other words, you're an arrogant jerk who makes a lot of assumptions about other people and has an inflated sense of how valuable his own perspective is. Just because people here don't like you doesn't mean that they have any honest reason to believe you have said anything wise. I certainly see no wisdom in anything you've said since you've joined here, and I reserve the right to make that judgment.

Your clever contortion of a colloquialism into a personal attack is entertaining, but meaningless. You could direct that insult at just about anybody at some time or another, including yourself. This greatly undermines its effectiveness as a supporting argument. I am honestly surprised you included it.

Why don't you ask the referee how much it hurts my supporting argument? Or whoever it is you think is keeping score. If there are times when I'm not as smart as I think I am then you're welcome to address that, but right now this is about you, and how your arrogance is as contorting as it is unpleasant.

 

[crackerjacker]

Meh....I got what I wanted out of the experience. I concede. Have fun with the Walrus and Carpenter.

 

[TrashyMG]

Meh....I got what I wanted out of the experience. I concede. Have fun with the Walrus and Carpenter.

??

 

[Prometheus]

 

[WizardStan]

The correlations drawn between Madoff and the Pandora Project were the most fantastic that I could come up with and were designed to increase the severity of the emotional response.

With that statement, you are by definition a psychopath. I sincerely hope that you seek the help that you obviously need.

and Prometheus, I love you very much right now.

 

[LineOf7s]

In other words, you're an arrogant jerk who makes a lot of assumptions about other people and has an inflated sense of how valuable his own perspective is.

I concede