The Voting

[iprice]

Do Pandora users need more utils, original software or ports?

Actually, I think the voting shows quite clearly what the Pandora community wants. And that makes me sad TBH. I said this 2 years ago on gp32x.de -


http://www.gp32x.de...post__p__879364

I think we need to encourage not just ports, or "me-too" stuff, but software that is exclusive to the Pandora. We need to show that Pandora is more than just an emulation station or a media encyclopedia. Show people software that no other machine has, or do something that no other handheld can do. Sure the other stuff is nice, but most of us can do all of that on a laptop/netbook. I didn't just buy a Pandora so I could have mini-laptop functionality. I want to see so much more than stuff that has been mentioned here.

It got slapped down by Craig. Why create a new machine and then not encourage new stuff? Oh well. BTW I'm not anti-emulation, and I think it's great that Pandora can do this so well, but so can (nearly) everything else. It's not a unique feature.


However I still stand by my comments - even if the rest of the world doesn't BTW at the time of posting I had purchased a Pandora, but after waiting two+ years I gave up waiting and cancelled my order.


I also think voting 3 times for any one piece of software is despicable (especially for software not tested). We could all have done that for our own entries (maybe some did?), but I hoped that people would play fairer than that. What a sham(e).

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I hope ED will fix that. I guess it's not what he intended.

 

[ZXDunny]

I think we need to encourage not just ports, or "me-too" stuff, but software that is exclusive to the Pandora. We need to show that Pandora is more than just an emulation station or a media encyclopedia. Show people software that no other machine has, or do something that no other handheld can do. Sure the other stuff is nice, but most of us can do all of that on a laptop/netbook. I didn't just buy a Pandora so I could have mini-laptop functionality. I want to see so much more than stuff that has been mentioned here.

It got slapped down by Craig. Why create a new machine and then not encourage new stuff? Oh well. BTW I'm not anti-emulation, and I think it's great that Pandora can do this so well, but so can (nearly) everything else. It's not a unique feature.

I think it's indicative of the general levels of ability in the open-source community to be fair. In linux-land, the only apps and games that look like anyone acually gives a damn are those with a corporate interest behind them - the rest are made by discontented bearded nerds with some sort of misguided chip on their shoulder and a "me too" attitude which pushes them to copy an application or game simply because it's not compatible with their views on source code and who should be able to see it - see many of the "TUX" games which are all very poor clones of successful commercial games. Given this environment, did you really think that anything for the Pandora that's any good would be Pandora-exclusive? All the best software is unfortunately ported from other platforms or emulated.

I also think voting 3 times for any one piece of software is despicable (especially for software not tested). We could all have done that for our own entries (maybe some did?), but I hoped that people would play fairer than that. What a sham(e).

No, you're wrong there. Murdering Grannies and taking their pensions is despicable. This is a web forum for handheld niche computer. I'm sure you can work out the difference. As I said originally, I tested the rest of the entries and found them sorely lacking. I didn't want to reward the authors for poor work, so I voted the only way I could - the fact that I have not (and will not) install that app on my Pandora is besides the point; the author has obviously worked very very hard to tailor his software to the Pandora in a way that nobody else has done. For that, he gets three votes.


D.

 

[iprice]

the fact that I have not (and will not) install that app on my Pandora is besides the point

So why vote at all? The entry obviously isn't good enough still to be worthy of your Pandora.

the author has obviously worked very very hard to tailor his software to the Pandora in a way that nobody else has done

That's saying that no other entrant worked hard on their entry. That's bullshit. There's plenty of work gone into every single entry. And you are ignoring the fact that several entries were created without the benefit of owning a Pandora, so tailoring for a machine that the creator does not own is impossible.

I tested the rest of the entries and found them sorely lacking.

For a competition that lasted only two months exactly what did you expect? Most devs here work alone or in very small teams. Asking them to create something that would rise to your obviously high standards is perhaps asking the impossible. And then you slap them all down for the work that the others have done.


Nice.

 

[diligentcircle]

As I said originally, I tested the rest of the entries and found them sorely lacking. I didn't want to reward the authors for poor work, so I voted the only way I could - the fact that I have not (and will not) install that app on my Pandora is besides the point

Well, what makes you so sure that what you voted for is any better than the rest of the entries? You really should test it and make sure you actually think it's good. Otherwise, you're just assuming it's good. If you found all the others lacking, I see no reason for whatever you voted for to be any different. There really isn't a huge disparity of quality between the entries. Take QEMU for example; from the outside, it looks like something from the gods themselves, but if you actually use it, you'll find that it's nice, but incredibly difficult to get working and not useful to everyone (I don't know how niche it is, but it certainly isn't very useful to me).

All the best software is unfortunately ported from other platforms or emulated.

Not necessarily. Super Geometry Dust started as a Pandora-exclusive before it was ported to the iPhone. You probably know this.


Of course, I'd agree that most of the best software comprises of ports, but there are some very cool exceptions that originated on the Pandora.

 

[crow_riot]

in the end it's always the same problem: not having two categories for ports and original entries. they are just in no way comparable so why judge them the same way. it's somewhat comparing apples to oranges IMO.


i've voted only for original entries, btw

 

[foxblock]

And that's why competitions are "bad": everyone gets up in arms about who should and who should not have won...


Throwing emulators, tools and games into the same pool only made matter worse here anyway.


Though let's try to reason why the entries are placed the way they are (and what we can draw from that):


(I am using the statusat the time of writing, mirrored here)

1. Qemu - this one simply is a beast. It alone opens so many new possibilities or at least it seems like that. A novice user might just read x86 compatibility and directly transfer to emulation heaven, then on a second guess performance factors in, too and many "possibilities" become just a pipe-dream. Yet, it still it "worth" a couple of games running (almost) perfectly and a good starting point for some optimizations and tinkering (also just opening a whole new space). But how do you factor that in this competition? Do you judge this as several games and programs it runs perfectly or do you try to value the amount of work put into the port (nearly none source modifications related to performance, yet a GUI and extensive wiki entry to even allow novice users access to this quite complicated tool) - comparing it to original entries becomes very hard at the least.
   
2. PND Management suite - It looks nice, it works well, it something most Pandora users have waited for since the very beginning. Then PNDStore came along and did the job, still iPhone users would laugh at you for the horrible interface and now you can show them with this nice piece of software. A lot of work also went in the backend (libpndman), which can easily be used in other apps or as a CLI tool, still the main GUI derives from Panorama (granted with a lot of work put into it) - is it worth more than a game fully created from scratch or an emulator granting you access to multiple games?
   
3. Hurrican - It looks nice (and probably plays well, too, I have not tested it yet sadly) and putting graphics over gameplay or originality sadly is becoming a trend. But it looks so nice and there is no arguing with that, also an "original" Turrican/Contra-style game seems to miss in the software library of the Pandora and well suited to the device (not counting emulators). Yet, it's "only" a port and how do you compare that to an original entry? Just as much work (=man hours) might have gone into getting this to run properly as have into created an original game, yet not much creative work obviously. Again as the first two entries it's really something to show off and show the capabilities of the Pandora (but what's that really worth?).
   
4. Slackware - It's a whole new OS, so this should be worth more than anything, right? I can't really get into the functionality because I have not tested it and am not particular interested in it being satisfied with the default one (and after all I personally vote for the entries I like the most and which I feel deserve to win for one reason or the other).
   
5. Dino Defense - The first original game. I would have loved to see this come in higher to get iprice a Pandora to keep his motivation up working on the game (and many to come in the future). The main problem here (as with most game entries in compos in general) is that it's not finished. Graphics contain many placeholders, there are not too many levels and different enemies/towers/etc. Yet if that was intended you could view it as a finished game, because it's definitely play-able and fun (also showing a lot of potential). iprice came up with the concept, did the code, the graphics, mostly everything (in contrast to the previous entries), yet is this worth "more" or better than the other ones? Also this is only one game, you play through it and there is little to none replay value whereas qemu comes with a huge library and the PND Management suite is something you might end up using every day.
   
6. Beta Block Quest - An engine, it's not even a finished game or even remotely useful to the end user at the moment. So why do users vote for it that much? Just like with Rainy Day they see potential, this could end up being "our" Minecraft (and many seem to be interested in that), although it won't. Yet the engine is pretty impressive and might allow for a compelling and vast experience. But should you judge on potential? Shouldn't you judge on what's available now, because as far as we know nothing might ever come of this?
   
7. and following - Most games are sadly lacking in one aspect or another. Either being uninspired, buggy, unfinished or simply not fun (though that's a pretty ordinary statistic actually). Things like the Kill-Overlay will definitely prove to be very useful (especially with added functionality), but again that's potential and an overlay surely cannot be shown off as well as a graphically impressive demo. Most tools submitted are rather niece and therefore probably not appealing to many users.
   

So yeah that's my thoughts on the matter and some questions people maybe should ask themselves (pretentious? yeah maybe).


In the end I think it comes down to the lack of separation into groups and the general drama surrounding competitions on the basis that everyone thinks the results should be different (or rather everyone who thinks so posts his opinions, the other people hardly have reason to do so).


The only thing you can really read from the results is the lack of participation in the voting and the fact that maybe the community is not as active as it seems (active meaning actually being productive and contributing to things - even when it's just clicking 4 times to show your opinion), which in part might be related to the short voting deadline (though everyone looking in here at least once a week should have caught that and there certainly was enough time to test all entries).


I think a frontpage highlighting important news posts (like on gp32x.de) would be a good idea to help the latter problem (PandoraPress kind of was that in the past, but as you can see we kind of lost interest copy pasting news...)


In any case, I hope nobody gets up in arms about this, becomes demotivated and people keep working on their entries, there certainly were a few gems in there, which just need some polish or a push in the right direction to really shine


EDIT: Oops, forgot Slackware, sorry about that...

 

[Stephane Hockenhull]

I wonder if we'll be missing out on the weekend forum goers' votes since voting started on Monday (or very late Sunday night) and will end Friday night.


not that I really expect much to change in the ranking, they've been surprisingly unchanging all week.


but I expected way more Pandora users to vote, like, at least 500.


out of the what? 6000? 7000? pandoras out there? and 4000+ registered forum users...


@ZXDunny


ED said:

Every member from this board has the possibility to vote for his favourite three entries.

emphasis by EvilDragon


my understanding of this is you're supposed to vote for 3 different entries.

 

[gruso]

Do Pandora users need more utils, original software or ports?

Actually, I think the voting shows quite clearly what the Pandora community wants. And that makes me sad TBH.

I don't understand why. (Not that I question your judgement, or your right to feel that way).

Here's a current breakdown according to the unofficial summary here.


qemu : 161


PND Management Suite : 136


Hurrican : 88


Slackware Linux for Pandora : 80


Dino Defense : 73


Beta Block Quest : 48


Schwerkraft : 31


OpenDune : 26


Wicket : 25


Deadly Caves : 24


That's the current top ten. Six are original homebrew. I personally think that's a good showing, but that's a glass half empty/full scenario. The front runner is an emu port, and for what it is, its position should be entirely unsurprising. A mere two entries are game ports. And that leaves one other port (a classification that does it no justice), which is an entire operating system.


To me it's a really nice cross section of entries. To a pure homebrew enthusiast, I guess I can see how it might be disappointing. I think the results would be different if we had 5,000 owners voting on an external site, but I won't go down the path of conjecture.


Worth noting that the current count is tentative. There will be a full analysis to ensure everything is above board before the final tally is confirmed.

 

[mcobit]

It is strange, that a lot of users just don't seem to vote. I think when the votingdeadline approaches, there will still be some votes.


I think that the votes should go to three different entries, too, but You can#t control this in these forumpolls I think :

 

[diligentcircle]

And that's why competitions are "bad": everyone gets up in arms about who should and who should not have won...

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, I don't have a problem with what anyone votes for; however, I definitely think everyone should only vote for things they actually have tried and like. Why you like it, doesn't matter, but just assuming that it's better than all the others when you haven't even tested it out means you're riding on what everyone else says, and it's not your own judgment any more.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Speaking about my work, if someone doesn't have a 8G SD card or more, how can he try Slackware ?


Also, not everybody can download it :/ :

 

[Hoodoo]

I voted for an entry which makes Pandora more of a general purpose handheld computer and makes usage of application and utilities I'm used to easier for me. Thanks a lot for diong this, I had to stop working on this when current Gentoo stopped working with the old kernel and I'm going to try again later, when the new one is a little bit more polished.

 

[ZXDunny]

the fact that I have not (and will not) install that app on my Pandora is besides the point

So why vote at all? The entry obviously isn't good enough still to be worthy of your Pandora.

I told you why I voted; you're now behaving exactly as you're accusing me of doing - not actually gaining knowledge necessary. I felt that after the long and arduous process of porting his entry, the author was the only person who actually put some real effort into getting it "just right" for the Pandora. Believe me, I know how much of an heroic effort he's put in, and I salute his efforts by voting for him. 3 Times.


It's not a case of the entry not being good enough to run on my Pandora - it's a case of my not needing it. I've tested all the other entries and find them, as I said, lacking in the the same amount of effort that I felt had gone into the entry I decided to vote for.

the author has obviously worked very very hard to tailor his software to the Pandora in a way that nobody else has done

That's saying that no other entrant worked hard on their entry. That's bullshit. There's plenty of work gone into every single entry. And you are ignoring the fact that several entries were created without the benefit of owning a Pandora, so tailoring for a machine that the creator does not own is impossible.

Yes, I'm saying that nobody else came close to the amount of effort put in. This is why I didn't enter any of my software that I'm working on - none of it is in what I would call a decent, finished and polished state to represent the rebirth of the Pandora. I don't think any of the entries are, but if I must vote for one, I'll vote for the one that's had the most work put in.

I tested the rest of the entries and found them sorely lacking.

For a competition that lasted only two months exactly what did you expect? Most devs here work alone or in very small teams. Asking them to create something that would rise to your obviously high standards is perhaps asking the impossible. And then you slap them all down for the work that the others have done.


Nice.

Two months isn't enough time, no. Hence why I've not entered anything - it would be pointless, as I've not finished anything. You seem to have some trouble understanding what I've been saying.


D.

 

[joschobart]

I really wanted to participate at this poll just I don't have my own pandora yet... But I want to congratulate and thank the contributors, it seams they all did a very good job!


@ZXDunny: please don't make statements about developers not putting enough effort in their entries. It's unfair.

 

[diligentcircle]

I felt that after the long and arduous process of porting his entry, the author was the only person who actually put some real effort into getting it "just right" for the Pandora. Believe me, I know how much of an heroic effort he's put in, and I salute his efforts by voting for him. 3 Times.

So, the assumption you made isn't that the one you voted for is great, it's that all the others didn't give any ("real") effort into getting it "just right"? I dunno, ZX. I'm seeing lots of effort all around. What is this entry that got everything "just right" where everything else didn't, and if you haven't even tested it, how can you possibly know this?

 

[ZXDunny]

@ZXDunny: please don't make statements about developers not putting enough effort in their entries. It's unfair.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply given in the case of Arkell vs. Pressdram.

I felt that after the long and arduous process of porting his entry, the author was the only person who actually put some real effort into getting it "just right" for the Pandora. Believe me, I know how much of an heroic effort he's put in, and I salute his efforts by voting for him. 3 Times.

So, the assumption you made isn't that the one you voted for is great, it's that all the others didn't give any ("real") effort into getting it "just right"? I dunno, ZX. I'm seeing lots of effort all around. What is this entry that got everything "just right" where everything else didn't, and if you haven't even tested it, how can you possibly know this?

Why, it's Slackware of course! Being a Slack13 user myself, I know what he went through in getting it running on Pandora, and feel he deserves his 3 votes. Have you not been following his posts in the Slackware and firmware threads? For shame, sir! For shame!


D.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I'm not sure naming my entry in a flamewar serves me well... ^^


And now, for something completely different, i may upload something new in a few minutes. Just need to check one or two things.


Should take around 5 hours to upload so it will be tight to test it.


More info later.

 

[diligentcircle]

Why, it's Slackware of course! Being a Slack13 user myself, I know what he went through in getting it running on Pandora, and feel he deserves his 3 votes. Have you not been following his posts in the Slackware and firmware threads? For shame, sir! For shame!

No, I don't follow Slackware since I'm not one of the interest group at this time.


Well, I suppose I can see where you're coming from since it's (quite) a bit more complicated to get an OS running than to run a PND.

 

[gigios]

First I want express my gratitude to EvilDragon, otherwise for me was impossible to express my vote (for some problem with the registration on the forum).


Unfortunately I don't have a Pandora but I want to congratulate to all the participants of this contest.