The Software Side Of Pandora

[indrema]

A lot of hardware is being discussed, but what about the software side of things?

What's being done to promote Pandora as a stand-alone system? Are you working with developers, (commercial/homebrew), and providing dev kits? Are there game editors planned to speed development of indie games? This was the worst part about the gp2x. They didn't even bother with software. I'd be surprised if anyone knows what it's capable of beyond its emulation abilities.

Are there plans to implement WINE? As it isn't an emulator, we might be able to see much newer games on the system.

Will there be imbedded software allowing one/both of the analog sticks to default as a mouse? This could make mouse games more natural than a touch screen as many games aren't designed for it.

I know there is an entire dev section. My main question is to the marketing side of this.

ThanX - I can't believe you guys made this!!

 

[AireTamStorm]

As WINE is dependent on the x86 architecture, it will NEVER run on the pandora.

Edit:
Let me clarify- As Wine Is Not an Emulator, it does not simulate the correct CPU for windows applications to run on. Windows runs on x86. Pandora is running ARM.

Unlike the GP2X, the Pandora has a full keyboard, touchscreen, and WiFi. We'll see a good chunk of the huge library of Linux games ported over.

 

[indrema]

Ports are all well & good, but they rarely show a systems full potential. Ideally, I would like to see Pandora only software.

PS - thanks for clearing up WINE for me.

 

[Chip]

A lot of hardware is being discussed, but what about the software side of things?
What's being done to promote Pandora as a stand-alone system? Are you working with developers, (commercial/homebrew), and providing dev kits?

It is difficult to write software for hardware that isn't finished yet. Luckily a few programmers had access to OMAP3530 dev boards and have been working on the OS and other bits. The first few actual Pandora test systems were (supposedly) shipped this week, so hopefully we'll start to hear how software development is coming along on them soon.

QUOTE
Are there game editors planned to speed development of indie games? This was the worst part about the gp2x. They didn't even bother with software. I'd be surprised if anyone knows what it's capable of beyond its emulation abilities.

GPH themselves did little to foster indie game development, but the people here did a lot. The devs here know exactly what the GP2X is capable of, and even ported libraries like pygame and SDL to foster game creation. What you have to understand is that GPH is not the company that is making the Pandora. Since you only joined the formus an hour ago, I'm going to let that one slide


QUOTE
Are there plans to implement WINE? As it isn't an emulator, we might be able to see much newer games on the system.

Will there be imbedded software allowing one/both of the analog sticks to default as a mouse? This could make mouse games more natural than a touch screen as many games aren't designed for it.


As stated here and many other threads, WINE will not work on non-x86 hardware. As for using the analogs as a mouse input: Yes. It's not hard at all.

QUOTE
I know there is an entire dev section. My main question is to the marketing side of this.

You didn't ask any marketing questions :blink:
However, before you do, I suggest you read this thread. That will probably cover any questions you do have.

 

[trooper]

@ Chip

Just sorted you quote`s out, They were all mangled.

Trooper

 

[indrema]

I think I should have said strategy side. Are there communications with software companies. Is there a plan in place for distribution? Will the community move to a new location to separate Pandora & localize the products?


I know this doesn't come from GPH, but I thought it was designed to address direct flaws with the GPH product line.

 

[AireTamStorm]

Ports are all well & good, but they rarely show a systems full potential. Ideally, I would like to see Pandora only software.

PS - thanks for clearing up WINE for me.

As devs will be working on a machine with more horsepower than pretty much any other handheld device out there, I'm sure we'll get to see some quality homebrew to back it.

I was around when the GP2X just came out (I was actually hunting down a GP32, but couldn't find one) and you'll see the same development trend. Expect a dry lineup at first. Basics, not highly optimized. Video players, audio players, a couple games and a few emulators. Remember, a large chunk of the homebrew devs out there do not have the hardware yet. 2-3 months later the software library will likely explode with new releases.

I've heard the Pandora will have a package manager of some sort. We might see a lot of standard Linux applications out of the box, like Firefox. Note that, same with Wine, Flash-Player for Linux will not run on the Pandora because it is strictly built for x86. An Open Source project "Gnash" will, however enable a limited support for flash (including common video playback).

A ton of good software is going to come from this.

If you'd like to read up on the GP32 or GP2X, which Pandora is essentially a spiritual successor to, I'd suggest taking a look at the wikipedia articles here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP32
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2X

And for the Pandora itself:
http://pandorawiki.org/Pandora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_(console)

 

[Chip]

I think I should have said strategy side. Are there communications with software companies. Is there a plan in place for distribution? Will the community move to a new location to separate Pandora & localize the products?

There isn't much point to asking a 3rd party software house to develop software for a system that doesn't exist yet. They're taking more of a "If you build it, they will come" approach. Once Pandora is actually shipping and detailed reviews start popping up all over the web, the theory is that developers will say "Hot damn! I got to get me one of those!". Then they'll buy a Pandora and start writing software for it. The strategy worked pretty well for the GP2X.

If / when Pandora starts getting big then maybe they'll come up with a separate forum / software repository. It all depends on whether it's really necessary or even desirable. For now there is enough overlap in GP32 / GP2X / Pandora adherents that it makes sense to keep it all together.

QUOTE
I know this doesn't come from GPH, but I thought it was designed to address direct flaws with the GPH product line.

The problems with the GP2X were partially hardware and partially support / communication from the factory. We're hoping the former is being handled better with Pandora, and the latter definitely is.

 

[Orkie]

GPH themselves did little to foster indie game development, but the people here did a lot. The devs here know exactly what the GP2X is capable of, and even ported libraries like pygame and SDL to foster game creation. What you have to understand is that GPH is not the company that is making the Pandora. Since you only joined the formus an hour ago, I'm going to let that one slide


Actually, GPH don't seem to be that bad if you actually manage to get in touch with them. They do genuinely want developers to make things for their hardware and I suspect the lack of information from them is more to do with them lacking it themselves than being stubborn.

As stated here and many other threads, WINE will not work on non-x86 hardware. As for using the analogs as a mouse input: Yes. It's not hard at all.

Wine could be interesting to run on the Pandora at some point. Wine is not only used for running Windows applications on other OSs, if there is any open source Windows code out there of interest I guess it could be compiled with winelib (though how portable winelib is in reality, I'm not sure).

 

[indrema]

I guess I was under the impression the system was further along. I thought we could even order them as early as next month. Once everything is finalized, I hope a select number of people get the development libraries for launch titles. Homebrew is great, but I think Pandora has the potential to, also, really compete in the industry.

I know a lot of people who wanted something more robust than the DS, but found the PSP to be too generic in its feature-set.

That being said, large companies are scared of open source, don't ask me why - Windows doesn't stop piracy. There would have to a digital download infrastructure in place for them to produce games; iTunes, Gametap, Steam, etc.

 

[crazedover]

That being said, large companies are scared of open source, don't ask me why - Windows doesn't stop piracy. There would have to a digital download infrastructure in place for them to produce games; iTunes, Gametap, Steam, etc.

Releasing software on linux does not mean it has to be open source. I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

 

[Chip]

I guess I was under the impression the system was further along. I thought we could even order them as early as next month. Once everything is finalized, I hope a select number of people get the development libraries for launch titles. Homebrew is great, but I think Pandora has the potential to, also, really compete in the industry.

I know a lot of people who wanted something more robust than the DS, but found the PSP to be too generic in its feature-set.

That being said, large companies are scared of open source, don't ask me why - Windows doesn't stop piracy. There would have to a digital download infrastructure in place for them to produce games; iTunes, Gametap, Steam, etc.

It has nothing to do with open vs. closed source or piracy. There will be no big commercial software projects for Pandora because they wouldn't be profitable.

Pandora will never sell in large numbers (compared to the DS and PSP) because the overwhelming majority of handheld gamers are young. They are more impressed with polished big-budget titles than retro or indie games (not to mention they don't have the cash for a system that costs 2X-3X as much as a DS or PSP). Without a large installed user base, big game devs can't make money on the system. Without big game devs, you can't attract a large user base. It's a vicious circle.

So relax. Pandora will do just fine on a small scale like the GP32 and GP2X did. The manufacturers don't need to sell millions of units in order to turn a profit, and we don't need big-name studios making games for Pandora for it to be enjoyable or successful.

 

[indrema]

I don't know where people get that idea, either, that's the whole point. I know plenty of artists in the industry, (being one myself). The fact that the OS is open source makes people - read: old computer guys - think that there's some back door into the source code of their commodities.

I also know a lot of people who own PSP's, & I don't know a lot of kids. Why can't Pandora be big. It will be fine on a small scale, at the same time, it could go a long way towards integrating commercial & indie projects. We all still have a "this is mine & that is yours" mentality. Whenever big companies get fat, upstarts usurp them. Something will replace both the DS & PSP. It, probably, won't be from Nintendo or Sony.

True enough, it doesn't have to be the Pandora either.......

& Netflix couldn't beat Blockbuster......

 

[Chip]

Why can't Pandora be big. It will be fine on a small scale, at the same time, it could go a long way towards integrating commercial & indie projects.

What do you think it costs to produce a "professional" software title? $50k? $100k? That's at the absolute minimum. Most popular games for the DS or PSP cost exponentially more. With a $50k budget, you need to sell 2500 copies of your game at $20 each just to break even. If there aren't even 5k Pandoras in existence, what is the chance you'll make your numbers?


QUOTE
I also know a lot of people who own PSP's, & I don't know a lot of kids.

I can't find any really hard numbers on PSP ownership, but this poll has almost 90% of respondents under the age of 24. I'd bet vital parts of my anatomy that DS ownership skews even younger. Most of these kids do not care about games that came out before they were born.

Don't sweat it though. We make up for quantity with quality.

 

[IcantDeleteThisAccount]

QUOTE

Don't sweat it though. We make up for quantity with quality.



I don't know why but I like this quote. I've noticed a lot of open source stuff tends to be more polished then commercial products and ever changing. Not to say I haven't ran across an open source piece of crap here and there but lately I've stopped pirating software and just found open source alternatives because there is always a group of people out there who think they can do it better then the retail software, like Gimp for instance is an amazing photo editor.

 

[teggun]

QUOTE

Don't sweat it though. We make up for quantity with quality.

I don't know why but I like this quote. I've noticed a lot of open source stuff tends to be more polished then commercial products and ever changing. Not to say I haven't ran across an open source piece of crap here and there but lately I've stopped pirating software and just found open source alternatives because there is always a group of people out there who think they can do it better then the retail software, like Gimp for instance is an amazing photo editor.


That's true. However the trouble with open source projects/free software is that the developers only develop for things they personally care about. Sometimes you end up with software that's just not that user friendly, or lacks a GUI or doesn't work with specific hardware etc. etc.

 

[Sphinxter]

The follow through is the hardest part, a lot of them end up that way just because the debugging, testing and final stages of development take so damn much out of you. Developer run sick and tired of the same problems begging for a new project.

 

[indrema]

This is really getting off track. I wanted to know about WINE, which was answered, & what was the strategy for comercial releases on Pandora. This is, apparently, nonexistent.

It is, obviously, not intended to make a significant mark in the world of portables. Beyond any other reasoning, this is due to the fact that its intended audience isn't interested in this. Which is fine, it's being developed specifically for the community.

 

[teggun]

This is really getting off track. I wanted to know about WINE, which was answered, & what was the strategy for comercial releases on Pandora. This is, apparently, nonexistent.

It is, obviously, not intended to make a significant mark in the world of portables. Beyond any other reasoning, this is due to the fact that its intended audience isn't interested in this. Which is fine, it's being developed specifically for the community.

The intended audience for the Pandora IS this community. I don't think any of the developers here care about the PSP/DS fanboys etc.

 

[Holokauston]

The intended audience for the Pandora IS this community. I don't think any of the developers here care about the PSP/DS fanboys etc.

I've been thinking about the intended audience for a bit, my guess here is most people here are spreading the word to their friends, I know I've gotten about 10+ friends really interested and a few more that have their eyes on it, but I was thinking further down the road (after the public release) the share possibilities for Pandora and the fact that it will used many of the latest things etc would make it ideal to pitch to universities etc?
I know that at least in Sweden there is a big open source movement (and it's growing both inside and outside) throughout the universities run by both students, faculty and alumni, Pandora gives a so far unparalleled chance to show what independent products really can do with open source and also it would give for etc. all the game dev programs (or any software program for that matter) that many schools have, a great platform to develop and learn on for the future and so on.

Just a thought. If it catches on Pandora might be able to really reach "normal" users as well and further the cause of open source etc?