The Situation

[CSXM]

Earlier I did a post about my worries about the whole project. It was active for a while with many people just about telling me to shut up, some people telling me to be calm and some supporting my concern (eventually the thread was deleted). I've been wised up since then about the situation.

I'm writing this post because I hate to see the forum to get against each other.

I don't like that people who are really worried (some almost paranoid) about their money spent to the yet-to-be-waited product or the stuff that's been going on, are blamed for ignorance and not having faith on the devs.

Also I don't like to see that some people judges this whole thing as a scam (given that there is a lot of room for speculations).

What I would like to see is that the situation would be cleared up by the developers.

I don't like reading the explanation "they are too busy to keep you informed and your questions will delay the shipping" just as much I don't like to read all the same questions again and again. Also I don't want to hear that the devs can't give us any information more that is currently on the forum. These are wants and don't wants, I know. Still I think that most of us here in the forum are the customers. Some with more faith, some with less but still I don't see the reason to fight.

The fact is that the developers have not kept customers informed of the production progress as much a pre-paid unfinished product order would have justified. Plus the re-order thing which has also been left pretty unclear for the reason part to the customers in the e-mail.

I'd like to see the forum to discuss these matters open minded.

I know it's an all "I want" post, but maybe some souls sees my point... hopefully.

I really wish that this post isn't a trigger for a fight.

 

[jellmoo]

My Take:

You place a pre-order on a non existent product, that had no finalized *anything*, that has been a work in progress for a long time. It is essentially a labour of love with no giant cooperate backing, being put together by people in their spare time.

Pre-ordering came with a certain understanding that everything was certainly not going to run perfectly. There were going to be issues, there were going to be set backs.

If you were not comfortable with this arrangement, if you could not afford the cost, if you were the least bit uncomfortable paying before the product was in a final state, you should not have pre-ordered the product and should have waited for the second batch.

 

[j.pickens]

The fact is that the developers have not kept customers informed of the production progress as much a pre-paid unfinished product order would have justified.

Oh, yeah, the last 10 items I pre-ordered before design and production were complete were handled totally better!!!!Profit!!!win!!!11!

 

[WizardStan]

The fact is that the developers have not kept customers informed of the production progress as much a pre-paid unfinished product order would have justified. Plus the re-order thing which has also been left pretty unclear for the reason part to the customers in the e-mail.

Seriously, I don't understand. What do people want to know? They had a problem, said they're taking care of it, and will let us know when it's complete. Telling you how far along they are in correcting the problem will not make anything move faster. Detailing the problem won't help solve things. It will accomplish nothing.
You say they haven't kept us informed about the product we pre-paid for as if we were in some way entitled. I have pre-ordered many things in the past (mostly software) every single one of which was delayed for some reason. This is the first time that the reasons for the delay have been made officially public and detailed to this degree. In short, the Pandora team is doing MORE than what an established company such as Nintendo or Sony would be doing. This is why I don't understand. How can they be doing more than any other company that has come before them, and still not be doing enough?

 

[Ryzure]

My Take:

You place a pre-order on a non existent product, that had no finalized *anything*, that has been a work in progress for a long time. It is essentially a labour of love with no giant cooperate backing, being put together by people in their spare time.

Pre-ordering came with a certain understanding that everything was certainly not going to run perfectly. There were going to be issues, there were going to be set backs.

If you were not comfortable with this arrangement, if you could not afford the cost, if you were the least bit uncomfortable paying before the product was in a final state, you should not have pre-ordered the product and should have waited for the second batch.

+1 for logic.

 

[nickik]

I think they dont no it jet how should they no wenn LCDs will arive? If you cant deal with it just get your money back and go the save way.

I will go with the risk and hope im one of the first to get the pandora

 

[CSXM]

The fact is that the developers have not kept customers informed of the production progress as much a pre-paid unfinished product order would have justified. Plus the re-order thing which has also been left pretty unclear for the reason part to the customers in the e-mail.

Seriously, I don't understand. What do people want to know? They had a problem, said they're taking care of it, and will let us know when it's complete. Telling you how far along they are in correcting the problem will not make anything move faster. Detailing the problem won't help solve things. It will accomplish nothing.
You say they haven't kept us informed about the product we pre-paid for as if we were in some way entitled. I have pre-ordered many things in the past (mostly software) every single one of which was delayed for some reason. This is the first time that the reasons for the delay have been made officially public and detailed to this degree. In short, the Pandora team is doing MORE than what an established company such as Nintendo or Sony would be doing. This is why I don't understand. How can they be doing more than any other company that has come before them, and still not be doing enough?

Hmm.. Saying "production progress" I meant the actual hardware, not the problems in the delivery/costs/etc. management. I mean I'd like to know how are things going on in the factory(/factories?) and the real product production.

Sadly, even this kind of a post aggravates..

My Take:

You place a pre-order on a non existent product, that had no finalized *anything*, that has been a work in progress for a long time. It is essentially a labour of love with no giant cooperate backing, being put together by people in their spare time.

Pre-ordering came with a certain understanding that everything was certainly not going to run perfectly. There were going to be issues, there were going to be set backs.

If you were not comfortable with this arrangement, if you could not afford the cost, if you were the least bit uncomfortable paying before the product was in a final state, you should not have pre-ordered the product and should have waited for the second batch.

I have the money That's not the problem. And I'm not the problem. You missed the point of the whole thread. I meant to make a statement just against replies like this. Trying to say that "if you don't like it, get your money back or don't buy at all and don't complain". I pre-ordered Pandora and am eager to get one, don't get me wrong. But just telling that for people who are concerned, "don't whine off, take your money back" isn't conversation.

 

[lubidog]

Look, if you aren't happy take your money back!!!! That's why we are all so frustrated with posts like yours. This isn't a standard buy, if you want that go and buy a PSP. Otherwise just sit tight!

I know that for some the money is a BIG deal, for others who have a decent income they can cope with a gamble. But come on, we knew what we were risking here. And the perceived lack of communication is really not so. For such a small team who are having to confront such pressure to get this thing built with limited resources I think they are doing admirably!

I'm searching for an analogy, what about...You sign up for the army, then complain that you are under fire? Yeah, not good but the point is you knew what you were getting into so either sit tight and let them do their work or take your money back and go away from these boards.

You complain about us fighting? We are on two camps, those who are a little bothered by the delays and problems but who are prepared to wait until the thing is built and built well, and those who flood-literally FLOOD these boards with the same threads over and over again!!! And then when the threads are deleted by the over worked mods make ANOTHER thread to complain!!!

Seriously, if you are not happy, ask for a refund and go. There are enough here with faith who will take your place. This goes for all the whiners. Yes, we could all loose £200. But we probably, almost certainly won't. Instead in a few weeks we will have the coolest handheld ever built and be very happy!!!!

 

[flatmush]

I don't care if the developers are trying to produce the unit's themselves with a penknife and a soldering iron, they surely have five minutes in their day to post and update even if it says "nothing happened today, still awaiting target x". For one thing it would surely save them the effort of responding to the countless queries they must be getting by email/phone.
At the end of the day while people paid for an item that was unlikely to be produced on any sort of schedule it's not unreasonable to ask for regular updates from the people who are currently holding a large sum of your money.

Also I'm pretty sure craig said he wouldn't take pre-orders till he could guarantee a release date, while I understand that getting all the parts in the run up to christmas is obviously tricky it's not quite fair to go telling everyone that they knew what they signed up for.

 

[lubidog]

The fact is that the developers have not kept customers informed of the production progress as much a pre-paid unfinished product order would have justified. Plus the re-order thing which has also been left pretty unclear for the reason part to the customers in the e-mail.

Seriously, I don't understand. What do people want to know? They had a problem, said they're taking care of it, and will let us know when it's complete. Telling you how far along they are in correcting the problem will not make anything move faster. Detailing the problem won't help solve things. It will accomplish nothing.
You say they haven't kept us informed about the product we pre-paid for as if we were in some way entitled. I have pre-ordered many things in the past (mostly software) every single one of which was delayed for some reason. This is the first time that the reasons for the delay have been made officially public and detailed to this degree. In short, the Pandora team is doing MORE than what an established company such as Nintendo or Sony would be doing. This is why I don't understand. How can they be doing more than any other company that has come before them, and still not be doing enough?

Hmm.. Saying "production progress" I meant the actual hardware, not the problems in the delivery/costs/etc. management. I mean I'd like to know how are things going on in the factory(/factories?) and the real product production.

Sadly, even this kind of a post aggravates..

My Take:

You place a pre-order on a non existent product, that had no finalized *anything*, that has been a work in progress for a long time. It is essentially a labour of love with no giant cooperate backing, being put together by people in their spare time.

Pre-ordering came with a certain understanding that everything was certainly not going to run perfectly. There were going to be issues, there were going to be set backs.

If you were not comfortable with this arrangement, if you could not afford the cost, if you were the least bit uncomfortable paying before the product was in a final state, you should not have pre-ordered the product and should have waited for the second batch.

I have the money That's not the problem. And I'm not the problem. You missed the point of the whole thread. I meant to make a statement just against replies like this. Trying to say that "if you don't like it, get your money back or don't buy at all and don't complain". I pre-ordered Pandora and am eager to get one, don't get me wrong. But just telling that for people who are concerned, "don't whine off, take your money back" isn't conversation.

I replied before I read this. So what is conversation then? We are not allowed to disagree with you? What can I say? Your thread is pointless and not needed, oops! That's not 'conversation'!

I just assume you aren't english....

 

[mali]

My 2 cents I want to throw in is, that they listen to us and they know there is a communication issue and that they are eager to solve it, so they made Chip the official PR manager. That is progress IMO

 

[WizardStan]

Seriously, I don't understand. What do people want to know? They had a problem, said they're taking care of it, and will let us know when it's complete. Telling you how far along they are in correcting the problem will not make anything move faster. Detailing the problem won't help solve things. It will accomplish nothing.
You say they haven't kept us informed about the product we pre-paid for as if we were in some way entitled. I have pre-ordered many things in the past (mostly software) every single one of which was delayed for some reason. This is the first time that the reasons for the delay have been made officially public and detailed to this degree. In short, the Pandora team is doing MORE than what an established company such as Nintendo or Sony would be doing. This is why I don't understand. How can they be doing more than any other company that has come before them, and still not be doing enough?

Hmm.. Saying "production progress" I meant the actual hardware, not the problems in the delivery/costs/etc. management. I mean I'd like to know how are things going on in the factory(/factories?) and the real product production.

My point was to further the discussion, even if you knew whatever it is many seem to think they are entitled to, what difference would it make? In what way will knowing anything more than what we already know change things? Why do people want to know the things they want to know? It's not longer about whether they have the time, but what benefit will it bring to make such an update? Knowing your place in line won't make it arrive faster. Knowing exactly how far along in the refund list they are won't make a lot of difference.

 

[jellmoo]

QUOTE
Originally posted by CSXM.

I have the money That's not the problem. And I'm not the problem. You missed the point of the whole thread. I meant to make a statement just against replies like this. Trying to say that "if you don't like it, get your money back or don't buy at all and don't complain". I pre-ordered Pandora and am eager to get one, don't get me wrong. But just telling that for people who are concerned, "don't whine off, take your money back" isn't conversation.



No, it's an attempt to explain to people that patience is required, poking and poking at the devs will not help, and that delays and problems should have been expected. If such delays and problems were not acceptable, then why would you have pre-ordered the device in the first place? Wait until the issues are ironed out and order from a subsequent batch.

Posting a thread saying "I want this, and I want that" when it was crystal clear that there are overworked, lacking sleep, barely breaking even people trying their best to get everything done, in their spare time at that, working away at a labour of love seems, and I'm sorry to say it, a little selfish.

 

[flatmush]

Posting a thread saying "I want this, and I want that" when it was crystal clear that there are overworked, lacking sleep, barely breaking even people trying their best to get everything done, in their spare time at that, working away at a labour of love seems, and I'm sorry to say it, a little selfish.

Well for one I'm sure craigx said he'd been sleeping normal hours recently (how dare he!) so I don't think that's a reason to blame, and you could turn the whole thing round and say that if they're not breaking even it's their fault and they should've either charged more or stop whining about it.

Also someone working in their spare time on a labour of love or not, it's not selfish to ask for an update on something you've invested your money in, at the end of the day they chose how they were going to produce the panodora and it's not normal for a business to expect customers to sympathize.

There are two sides to every argument, I think people on this forum are forgetting that and people do have a right to state their views on the matter, after all we've all payed a lot of money and not got much in return yet.

 

[WizardStan]

Also someone working in their spare time on a labour of love or not, it's not selfish to ask for an update on something you've invested your money in, at the end of the day they chose how they were going to produce the panodora and it's not normal for a business to expect customers to sympathize.

You know what? I'm done again. I've tried to understand, tried to explain. I had a big write up about the definitions of "investment" vs "purchase" (hint, this was a purchase, not an investment. You bought an object, not a stake in the company) and again wondering why people were concerned about lack of updates when they have proven to be far more open than anyone else that came before.
I can't do it anymore. Perhaps I'll check back on the 30th, closer to the expected delivery.
Best of luck, Chip. Great respect for you and your tasks.

 

[jellmoo]

QUOTE
Quoted text originally posted by flatmush


QUOTE
Well for one I'm sure craigx said he'd been sleeping normal hours recently (how dare he!) so I don't think that's a reason to blame, and you could turn the whole thing round and say that if they're not breaking even it's their fault and they should've either charged more or stop whining about it.


Wow, colder please. I don't think they are whining about it at all, I am merely making a point that this is hardly peaches and cream for them, and that considering the sheer amount of effort being put into this, deserve a little bit of latitude.

QUOTE
Also someone working in their spare time on a labour of love or not, it's not selfish to ask for an update on something you've invested your money in, at the end of the day they chose how they were going to produce the panodora and it's not normal for a business to expect customers to sympathize.


And they have given updates. Quite a few of them in fact. And you invested money knowing full well that this was for all intents and purposes a "test run". That there would be bumps in the road (which they've been informing you of).

QUOTE
There are two sides to every argument, I think people on this forum are forgetting that and people do have a right to state their views on the matter, after all we've all payed a lot of money and not got much in return yet.



You actually do not have the right to state your views on the matter, at least not here. If the mods wanted, they could lock down every single negative comment. They don't. You are afforded the "privilege" of expressing your views on the matter, just as others are afforded the privilege of then countering them. Do not mistake this for a "right".

And yes, you have payed a nice chunk of change. You did that knowing what this project was, knowing that there would be issues, knowing that there would almost certainly be delays. Knowing all of this, why not wait for a later batch so that these issues would be ironed out?

 

[mali]

Not directed at anyone special, just in general.

I read, I understand but I don't get it.

 

[CSXM]

For f*ck sake. To one presumer, NO I'm not English, I'm Finnish. And I can't even explain how much it pisses me off to see my post to get such replies. This is just TOTAL bs. Wtf are you talking about their busy time and sh*t? I know that it is busy for them ffs. But do you REALLY think that it's the reason that ppl don't get any real updates on the production side from the devs, eh? I'm totally confident that people would be much more relaxed if they knew what parts are being manufactured where and when etc. I mean the whole process. Are they going to assemble pandoras themselves? Etc. etc. There are a lot of questions which are replied with "f off noob, that q is lame and answered in x (although with an answer that doesn't meet my concerns)"

If the "blame-team" keeps saying that they don't have time to tell the customers anything, that's just stupid. How freaking hard could it be to use a couple (or maybe even fifteen) minutes in front of a computer and tell the customers everything they've done at that day for Pandora? After all we're paying customers..

Sorry about the mad anger, but I'm angered for the direction of the thread.

Hrmm.. I feel sorry about whole of this reply already.. I was in an really big anger.. Sorry folks.

 

[flatmush]

OK as it seems like it upsets people on here if there is any kind of negative tone this will also be my last post in this thread.

The facts are people have payed money and even those wanting a refund are waiting for it with no indication of when that's going to happen, no matter how you look at it it's not unreasonable for people to be asking for explanations.

I know I sounded cold in that thread and I understand the issues that the developers are having and it is frustrating for them, but I was trying to make a point that it's a business and at the end of the day while they have to work their ass off now they should be making a tidy profit in the long run.

And about the whole issue of investment, that was a turn of phrase like I stated above when your money is in limbo as it is at the minute it's not unreasonable to ask for an update.

As a rule of thumb it is better not to post if you have too much emotion in what you say.

QUOTE
You actually do not have the right to state your views on the matter, at least not here. If the mods wanted, they could lock down every single negative comment. They don't. You are afforded the "privilege" of expressing your views on the matter, just as others are afforded the privilege of then countering them. Do not mistake this for a "right".

The moderators from what I can tell are relatively clear headed and aren't usually against open discussion, I read no terms and conditions stating I wasn't allowed to state my opinion on this forum so to my knowledge yes I do have the right. Just as other people have the right to interpret my message as they wish and choose to agree/disagree.

 

[jellmoo]

Edit: Dude I replied to edited his post, so in an effort to keep things cool I am doing the same.