GP2X The Penguin Must Die!

[Series-8]

Considering this board is running UNIX (probably Linux or *BSD), got a NAT router/firewall/Wireless gateway?
thats probably running *nix too?

PVR? *nix.

Cellphone, *nix sometimes too.

Linux may not be best at everything but its not bad at anything.

It's going to be a real experiment to see how well it does as an embedded OS for a game console.
I expect to be surprised.

 

[Radek]

Who says we can't make the Linux port better? There's nothing stopping us from updating the SD drivers, optimizing boot time, etc, etc.

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Of course that will happen but when it comes to raw speed it's best to dump linux. Both options have their place and I'll be happy to use both when needed. I think it's great that the 2x uses linux and now I think it's great that we can get even more power out of it using "HH" mode.

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Yes it's very good to have such option (the "HH") but I think you are underestimating somewhat what can be done using Linux. Looking at current GP2x firmware it's clear it isn't too efficient... Linux doesn't have to eat so much memory and cpu cycles. Look at the W95/98 - they were running good on machines with just 64MB of memory and they were a bloat. Then we have for an example the "Damn Small Linux" with 50MB for all system and aplications. This is not much bigger than the GPH's firmware and look how much more functionality was included.

For GP2x's hardware coprocessor they can be exposed using kernel modules so taking advantage of them isn't impossible under Linux.

Of course even optimized Linux will not be as efficient as "HH". However nothing for free as with Linux you will be having proper operating system with task switching, memory protection, networking support, etc. It doesn't mean I'm dismissing "HH" as valid option but we shouldn't dismiss Linux as well.

 

[gameguy56]

SNES emulation should run fine on a 200Mhz proc, even with an OS

I had a Mac OS 9 system with a 233Mhz PPC with 64MB of ram that ran SNES9x pretty damn well years ago.

 

[nubie]

I think that the kernel isn't very "heavy" at all. just kinda like a hyperactive retarded kid, way too fast, sloppy and a handful. I am hearing that the Linux kernel is a quick hack to get you going and has yet to be optimised and updated.

Then, when that is done, we can begin the paring. I think that whoever said HH will only be necessary for 5% is right on the money .

In a perfect world the kernel wouldn't get in the way, would boot nearly instantaneously, and allow full proper access to all the processors and ram.

The only *real* problem I am seeing with the kernel as we have it is the buggy Video playing drivers from magiceyes. As soon as we get a skilled coder to update the kernel and make a kickass driver for the media player, HH will hardly be necessary.

But, since we will already have it, the new kernel will support seamless HH mode/linux mode switching.

yes, I live in my own little dream world(but isn't it nice in here )

edit: messed up grammer

 

[torpor]

the linux kernel isn't too heavy, at all, for highly optimized games and fun .. whats going to add to the bloat are the libs and other accessory stuff (daemons?) that are in the distro.

those calling linux 'bloated' .. well .. really .. i work on embedded linux systems for a living, and i can tell you with serious honesty that if you think linux (the kernel) is bloated, you really honestly have no clue what you're talking about. i can trim down most linux kernels (2.4/2.6 series) into very, very lean machines, and i doubt there will be any actual advantage gained out of all this "HH" nonsense other than pure poser value...

 

[DJWillis]

the linux kernel isn't too heavy, at all, for highly optimized games and fun .. what’s going to add to the bloat are the libs and other accessory stuff (daemons?) that are in the distro.

those calling linux 'bloated' .. well .. really .. i work on embedded linux systems for a living, and i can tell you with serious honesty that if you think linux (the kernel) is bloated, you really honestly have no clue what you're talking about. i can trim down most linux kernels (2.4/2.6 series) into very, very lean machines, and i doubt there will be any actual advantage gained out of all this "HH" nonsense other than pure poser value...

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Likewise I have done a fair amount of commercial Embedded Linux work (and several of the people working with the raw hardware modes do Embedded Linux work to earn a living).

You are quite correct in saying that with work the Linux kernel on the GP2X could be a highly optimised beast with some rather awesome potential (the current GP2X ‘distribution’ is in need of a good session at the gym for sure ) however I think it is worth saying that nobody working on the raw hardware stuff is any kind of poser .

It is being done to offer people a choice of getting friendly with the hardware directly if they want without the need to patch, hack and slash the existing GPH Linux install and it is a great way to learn to quirks and features of the hardware (hell, for a lot of us that IS the point). Not to mention raw hardware is sometimes more natural to existing GP32 developers .

When you get stuck into making GP2X Linux the lean mean kernel machine you see it becoming I would love to see that patches contributed to Open2x . Linux will no doubt mature nicely but the focus of the raw hardware stuff was to side step some of that and give Linux a chance to mature on the device. No zealotry involved just pure old fashioned expediency.

On a more general note, I do love these threads (and the GPH/GPL ones ) for the inane bashing and crying of people with no desire to lift one finger to change things for the better. If you don’t like something in an ‘open’ community do something about it.

People can and will support both Linux and HH, or just one or the other. Personally, I don’t really care as long as end users can get an app and run it why should they care also? People can also sit in more then one camp! I guess as I am pursuing the Linux kernel source, GPL negotiations with ME/GPH etc. etc. that makes me a Linux fanboy and I can’t be involved or exited by the raw hardware stuff. Please people; get off the soap box before you fall over .

 

[torpor]

On a more general note, I do love these threads (and the GPH/GPL ones ) for the inane bashing and crying of people with no desire to lift one finger to change things for the better. If you don’t like something in an ‘open’ community do something about it.

you have to take it all with a grain of salt. there are definitely folks in this forum who would like nothing more than to see the GP2X fail, crash and burn.. or else there wouldn't be half the chicken-little action that there is in this forum, already, when the GPX2 hasn't even been properly released (we're at the beginning of the ramp, yo) ..

People can and will support both Linux and HH, or just one or the other. Personally, I don’t really care as long as end users can get an app and run it why should they care also? People can also sit in more then one camp! I guess as I am pursuing the Linux kernel source, GPL negotiations with ME/GPH etc. etc. that makes me a Linux fanboy and I can’t be involved or exited by the raw hardware stuff. Please people; get off the soap box before you fall over .

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heh heh .. sure thing, sure thing ..

my personal time on the soapbox is going to be better spent pimping my games, which i'll have out there as soon as i can get them working on my own GPX2, whenever it arrives ...

 

[Eolair]

Maybe someone can explain why it takes 20 second to load the OS? How much is loaded sizewise? What is loaded exactly? But no one outside GPH knows that, do they? Maybe it's loading all sorts of useless stuff (for the gp2x) that just happened to be there as default.

Or maybe the NAND flash access is just very slow or there's some bug in the startup sequence that halts everything for a few seconds. Who knows...I'm probably just talking nonsense...

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens once ppl start to explore different possibilities. I think it's way to early to discount either Linux or HH mode.

 

[Radek]

Maybe someone can explain why it takes 20 second to load the OS? How much is loaded sizewise? What is loaded exactly? But no one outside GPH knows that, do they? Maybe it's loading all sorts of useless stuff (for the gp2x) that just happened to be there as default.

Or maybe the NAND flash access is just very slow or there's some bug in the startup sequence that halts everything for a few seconds. Who knows...I'm probably just talking nonsense...

I think it's both - not too fast NAND flash and inefficient firmware. If booting time would be decreased to 10s then it would fast enough.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens once ppl start to explore different possibilities. I think it's way to early to discount either Linux or HH mode.

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Probably we will get a third party Linux for a GP2x. It shouldn't be hard and having all the technical documentation of GP2x's hardware there isn't reason why its coprocessor couldn't be exposed by API (SDL or something other).

 

[Squidge]

Maybe someone can explain why it takes 20 second to load the OS? How much is loaded sizewise? What is loaded exactly? But no one outside GPH knows that, do they? Maybe it's loading all sorts of useless stuff (for the gp2x) that just happened to be there as default.

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When I investigated this I noticed a few things that take the bulk of the startup time:

- loading the kernel image from nand (don't think much can be done here)
- decompression of the kernel image (kinda pointless as the decompressed image was smaller than the compressed image last time I looked at it)
- mounting of the jffs2 nand file system (ok, not much can be done here)
- when the kernel is initialised, it loads bash, runs the system wide shell script, and eventually loads the gui front end. It would be quicker to load the frontend directly, without loading bash first (and would also free up memory for use by user programs)

 

[green1152]

It's a win-win situation. Get over it.

 

[Radek]

- when the kernel is initialised, it loads bash, runs the system wide shell script, and eventually loads the gui front end. It would be quicker to load the frontend directly, without loading bash first (and would also free up memory for use by user programs)

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Bash is running here? Well... on my Linux just starting it eats 4.7MB of memory. For machines like the GP2x this is lot of resources.

 

[triton]

what is bash? im pretty much a noob when it comes to anything linux

 

[Ferentix]

It's a commonly used command line shell... I think

 

[iignotus]

And all-purpose scripting language.

 

[Ferentix]

for shell scripts right? I'm a linux newbie myself (approx 5 days ) so I don't know all of this stuff yet...

 

[oxygene]

And all-purpose scripting language.

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I had speed improvements in the range of factor 3 when switching from bash to zsh or ash (where ash is very likely more lightweight, too)

 

[Squidge]

Considering the scripts that GPH use, it would be faster, more memory efficient, and more secure to do away with bash and replace it with a small exe that does the same things.

 

[pepone]

Considering the scripts that GPH use, it would be faster, more memory efficient, and more secure to do away with bash and replace it with a small exe that does the same things.

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ash or sash are good candidate I think.
Zsh is almost as heavy than bash.

 

[theoddbot]

I think he means replacing the boot scripts with a proper executable that does the same things. Bash scripts spawn 100s of programs to do their work and replacing them has resulted in large speed increases in other systems.