The marketing of crowdfunded free software, open hardware (OP, n900, novena, pyra)


comradekingu

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Topic started as i found this:

Laptop for hardware hacking, fully free drivers, no NDAs, open hardware, debian.

I suspect this might be welcomed news for several members on here.

http://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop

It has met its goal and one stretch goal has already been reached, free vivante driver development.

Also relevant if you have a Gcw-zero, since that also uses etnaviv drivers.
 
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I would've gone with something better than an i.MX6. It's not bad per se, it is actually pretty good for its age, it's just not that great for the price.

On the other hand, considering the CPU accounts for maybe $50 of the $500 board cost, there's probably not much savings to be had by going with something else.

edit: actually you know what, I'm sure it's fine. It's the quad core, that's about as good as you can get right now. In any event, the driving force behind choosing Freescale is probably the Linux support I'd imagine.
 
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There isnt anything better than i.MX6 available. For what it is, it fits the picture. Im so glad the industry is at a point in time that allows this to happen.

The price concern is one to look at, granted. Compared to what it doesnt compare to, it isnt favourable, sure, but then again its not meant to be that, and it isnt for everyone, which isnt an excuse.

Its a niche thing because thats where we are right now. People wanting to pay more to get more better things.

However much that doesnt mean the problem is now solved for everyone, it does put it within feasability. A regular person can own a regular laptop at a regular price.

I have certainly done some thinking. Quite frankly i use a lot of time on and with my electronic equipment, and given that takes time away to do other costly things,

its warranted and then some.

There used to be a time when smartphones exited me, then smartphones i could tinker more with, then smartphones i could get to do what i wanted.

Remember when computers used to be fun? That was back in the amiga days for me.

As with laptops, the journey was never without its ever present influx of "what if"" "why didnt they" and "if only"  thats how the gp2x became the pandora, and its the same with the novena laptop.

Its _exactly_ what i want. Give me something hackable and i will show you what the product you sold me is.
 
The MX6 is the benchmark of the open hardware.. for now

The next edition could have a much more powerful processor.. if the SOC provider is willing to open up their environment to suit the needs of the community.

I love it.
 
yes, I think that getting anything better than this iMX6 without any NDA blob or anything of this sort is not really possible right now... and have you seen his oscilloscope addon?

http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3957

That alone could almost justify the price for people needing that kind of performances...
 
well i guess we cant call pandora/pyra expensive anymore....
I agree.And wonder why the "GTA04", the most open smart phone that could be produced immediately doesn't get more traction...

Well, the Neo900 (sort of successor) does, but isn't finished (we are working on prototypes in parallel to Pyra).
 
And wonder why the "GTA04", the most open smart phone that could be produced immediately doesn't get more traction...
 

That's the first I've heard about the GTA04 phone, perhaps you could start a topic on these boards and tell us all about it, bet there would be a fair bit of interest. Assuming of course you have something to do with that project, I just thought your username came from being a fan of Grand Theft Auto. ;)

Link to GTA04 phone here.

The costs, at first glance, do look ridiculously high but I guess that comes from having such small production runs, I wonder what the retail costs would be if they expected to sell 10,000 rather than 100 or so. Not sure it's really a laptop either, it looks like it would be rather difficult to use on your lap with an external keyboard & mouse.
 
Gta04:
 
I think the reason for that is this:
 
The Neo900
It was sort of difficult to put down a pledge, that could be easier and i imagine many dropped out in the process.
 
Secondly the advertizing for someone normal was a bit over their head. Freedom is a good and laudible means, but its not an end product, its the lack thereof that takes away from other phones. Focus on how other phones are bad and how this isnt.
People dont expect to be ripped off, nor do they know how this happens.
 
Also a _lot_ of people dont like smartphones, they want a keyboard, this has a keyboard, one of, if not the best found on a phone.
 
It makes it better for blind people, so try and get together with a blind hacky person and see how it fares. If they can use it, its _the best_ advertizing you will ever get, because only blind people know what its like to be blind.
 
It is so close of beeing for the everyman, if only the mad hacky side of it was, not toned down, but balanced by what it is, a phone. And i would sell the whole phone, some people will gladly pay 1000 euro to have the full phone ready to go in their mailbox. Security is important to people, 1000 euro to the same people is nothing. Thats unfortunate for some, but a huge market to tap into.  Make sure to reach out to those people where they are, it isnt irc.
 
Also the idea of sustainability is good, but sold short a bit. All those n900s, they are going to scrap, because the usb is engineered badly. This is german engineering, and i expect it to be up to that standard. Which is how people can feel good about recycling their old phone, or a phone that they have upcycled or saved.
 
Edit: i didnt see you meant gta04.  Gta04 had its fair share of problems, which i guess is something mostly fixed now.  Make a nice video where someone receives a call, sends a text message, operates the phone. Not shaky blurrycam style, but actually informative and pleasant.
 
The gta04
The webshop for gta04 screamed speciality product, like im buying a original rubber belt for a old tool out of a speciality warehouse storage somewhere.
 
I couldnt be more in the demographic for one, yet i ended up not getting one, (onboard for neo900 though, even though i dont have a n900)
 
The whole process was quirky, and it seemed like it was a "call here for price, and availability"
 
This _is_ who the other manufacturers arent, it should feel like it belongs with me, in a community. Then i think it will fare much better on home-soil.
 
The new neo900 page is good, but it isnt great. Its an engineers best effort, and it looks like it. Ill try to rewrite it a bit more clearly and not so verbose.
 
Edit: From the point of view of a general user, this makes me think i can have security without being a genious or forsaking ease of use.
To sell security you need to sell security. Here goes.
 
 
Image of phone
 
 
Does not spy on you                               anti prism image
 
Hardware keyboard.                            image
Recycle a n900 by using whats good, and getting rid of whats bad.
Replacement board:             800 euro (click to buy)
Whole phone ready to go:       1000 euro (click to buy)
Engineered in Germany, built in Germany.
Can be used by novice users.
 
(sexy screenshots of phone default OS. Homescreen, Taking a picture, writing an email/sms, listening to music, browsing the web, navigating with gps )
 
From the open hardware, free-software community, we are on your side.
Image of nicolaus and others involved.
 
Edit2: 
openphoenux.png

If this is depicting a Junkers Ju87 dive-bomber, firing and bombing something flat and causing it to burn, then it is doing that job well.
 
Edit3: Ok, now i get it, its a føniks.  Ive seen it lots and lots of times, but havent reflected over it. Took me a good 10 minutes of appreciation to see what its trying to do.  TL;DR on this, start again.
 
http://www.openphoenux.org/images/pillars.jpg  Here it is again doing a star wars death star run on the roof hatch of the reichtag. Red leader standing by.
 
Instead do just the icons, with a mouseover to see the name.

Proposed page:

Neo900 a phone that respects the user.          Openphoenux,Antiprism, Linux|Gnu,recycling logo/pictograms                                Microblog goes here

PICTURE OF PHONE WITH OS IN USE

I want the only phone i can buy that does not spy on me in any way:                         1500 €   Delivery fast    

I already own a nokia n900, i want to replace whats bad and use whats good:            800€   Delivery fastest

I want a spot in the preorder queue                                                                                   100€   Delivery slowest

I want to fund such a laudable project, since i am a internet boss                                  ____€  Instant gratification

All prices are the same as for the early preorders, which is fair. The more phones we sell the cheaper for everyone. You wont be forced to order anything with your spot in the preorder queue, you will even be refunded if you want to at the end of the project. If you do want to buy a phone, it will be rebated by whatever amount you funded with.

Units sold so far: 360

Funds raised:  56k, funds used:  15k

First prototype   Second prototype   buy parts    third proto  Buy more parts    Sign contracts   Deliver units         (these are all links to the corresponding blog posts)       

[screenshot of replicant], [screenshot of SHR], [screenshot of CP/M]          each doing either  surfing the web, listening to music, calling, or editing text

4 freedoms

Made in germany

No systemd

Showreel of media publicity

Picture of Joerg, picture of schaller, picture of DocS
 
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I have an HTC Desire-Z. When it inevitably dies I'm going to need a new phone and it looks like the Neo900 is the only candidate with a keyboard. Unfortunately it seems the DM3730 is inferior to the MSM7230, so upgrading for freedom makes for a huge downgrade in performance, I may just be better off finding another HTC Desire-Z.
 
I recon its actually faster. Also your HTC desire-Z is an android phone, which is like putting putting a caravan on a car.

Its a little bit better screen, bigger battery, better camera, better design.

The security aspect is the key difference i think, the desire-Z fails already there.
 
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Where are the gaming controls and it is not portable and specs are weaker than Pyra :)

I guess I shouldn't complain because this is another nice opensource project.  So OK :)
 
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The gaming controls with the hd screen to drive, thats what the pyra is. The n900 is a phone done right. I imagine i will end up having both. And my digital camera. There are much better cameras, but im ok with it and my manual lenses.
 
I dont understand what one does with power without having a keyboard. Every smartphone makes less and less sense for me, and im one of those people who use it to potential.
 
It can run lildebi and X apps, ok, but no, except for the baseline of things that a phone is convenient for, (some IM, listening to music, and a computer when you dont have one) a modern one is just a whole bunch of things it could be capable of _given a keyboard_.
 
So i can hook it up to a monitor and do that, - ok, but no again, thats something my computer does well. It falls between many chairs. I dont want a flashy fanfare of specs, i want something i can use.
 
"here is a more powerfull phone"
 
- "ok, where is the keyboard?"
 
"but that power though"
 
- "so its like a racing bicycle that has non-turnable handlebars?"
 
"but that speed though"
 
A tablet is a bad pda, a smartphone is a dumb way to combine a phone with what is usually a bad pda. And a phone is basically flawed.
 
Just accept the package for what its trying to do. Its like sunglasses, sometimes adjusting the sun isnt the best approach. I can wish for the neo900 to be better, sure, but its the very best at what its trying to do, thats the clue.

If i want to see a movie on the go (and that is extremely rarely the case) i see it on my laptop. So modern laptops are better, but actually, -no they arent, they havent got real keyboards. And the LG ipad3 screen is great, -yes, and thats why i have one, just the screen, connected to my laptop. If i were to upgrade my laptop it would be to the novena because it doesnt have loud fans, like my desktop. My desktop is old now, but its got a good screen and a good keyboard, because thats what i care about the most, given performance is ok.
 
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What can this laptop do that Pyra can't? On the other hand, Pyra can do everything this laptop will plus some. I'll stick to Pyra for now :)
 
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The laptop can be a good laptop, that lets you tinker with it.  I think of the pyra as a more game-centric, smaller version.

Edit: I tried a tablet and my life isnt about to change with lots of "apps" i still call a program a program, and i try to keep the invasive out of social networking.

I got a phablet, and i gave it away.

This comes to mind:

"Wave of the future, Dude. 100% electronic." "Yeah, well I still jerk off manually."
 
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What can this laptop do that Pyra can't? On the other hand, Pyra can do everything this laptop will plus some. I'll stick to Pyra for now :)
not true, there's FPGA everywhere in this "laptop"... have you seen the 900MHz oscilloscope based on that? I linked that just a few post before...
 
I've posted about this a little before, but I'll reiterate here. I think it's great if you want to do FPGA development, but calling it a laptop really breaks my suspension of disbelief. There's no builtin keyboard/pointing device, and keeping the thing open on a desk so you can use the screen seems like a bad idea (I really wouldn't want the PCBs exposed all the time like that)

For people here who are wanting to use this as a laptop, what is your usage plan exactly?
 
I recon its actually faster
At stock clock for sure, but the MSM7230 overclocks nicely to over 1.6Ghz when needed while the DM3730 barely crests 1.1Ghz consistently. Other than that it's very similar to the Cortex-A8.The fact that it's running Android is irrelevant to me; Keep in mind that I have a Pandora for my portable computing needs, I don't need a phone to duplicate that functionality: having immediate access to the swath of Android apps would be more useful than running a second DM3730 device that isn't quite as good as the Pandora for gaming and note taking tasks, so only by being able to run those Android apps better does it suit my needs as a better device.

That's why I'm hoping very much for the Pyra+LTE to go ahead, with Alien Dalvik, so I can have a single device that actually matches my use case fully.

Without the perceived improvement I'd just be paying a massive premium for the "freedom" which I wouldn't really use anyway.
 
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