The Final Revision

[Grench]

the problem i had with USB-c is that depending on the device it can use a 45W+ charger. my HP elite X2 required 15V 3A to charge. qualcom quickcharge specs have 5V 3A , 9V 3A , 12V 3A , 15V 3A. also 20V 3A there are type A and B only type B do the 15 V and 20V.. this changes too fast .. i just read that with USB PD (power distribution) 100W is max over USB type C quick charge cables...

That article I noted above has a chart where they charged 3 phones with their own and each other's chargers and/or cables and monitored the current draw. There is no consistency, there are no labels, there are no apparent standards being used beyond the shape of the plug.

 

[AVahne]

Yes let's slam the brakes and revise the main board and casing to support usb-c. What could possibly go wrong?

Except no one in this current discussion has suggested that the project start over. No one suggested that USB C is so important that everything needs to be scrapped just for its inclusion. The idea is that USB C would be added as part of a future board revision and wouldn't be quite that difficult to do as suggested by Evildragon himself (I'm sure some difficulties will crop up, as they always do, but he could deal with it like he's always done). This would probably just be a side project anyway as a way to give customers more choices.
This has no effect on the project's current progress. This has no effect on you nor the other preorders.
If you haven't preordered, this has no effect on your ability to buy the Pyra in its current form at launch.
If you haven't ordered a Pyra in the time between launch and the supposed release of a theoretical USB C revision, this has no effect on your ability to do so during that period.
If you haven't ordered a Pyra in its current form by the time a theoretical USB C revision is released, I would not doubt that there will likely be some old stock left in the Dragonbox shop and the ithic shop.
If by the time you decided to buy a Pyra and:
1) All old new stock is gone.
2) ED has ceased production of the launch Pyra revision.
3) Used units for sell do not exist at that time.
Then remember that the Pyra has TWO micro USB ports. If ED were to do a USB C revision board, I would think that he would only replace ONE of the TWO micro USB with USB C and thus giving more people more options. If you have a dire need of 2 micro USB ports, I would assume you would have already purchased a Pyra by that time as I would assume a revision would release years later giving you plenty of time to purchase one. If not, I think adapters exist. Or you could continue waiting for pre-owned units to pop up if they haven't already.

And actually, if ED were to release a USB C mainboard revision, I think a trade in program would be a good idea. Pyra owners who want the new board could send their old board back for a discount on the new one. Then he could take the old boards and build some "used" units to sell on his shop. If he did that then I'd be willing to buy one now (now, as in when Link gets them and when I've saved up enough) and change to USB C later.

Edit: Well, either way, what ED decides to work on after the Pyra is up to him after all. Whether it's a USB C mainboard revision, a second gen CPU board (or rather, the search for a suitable SoC for said CPU board), an SBC version of the Pyra, a smartphone version of the Pyra, or something totally different or nothing at all...

 

[Askarus]

I have a 2 year old phone with Micro USB.
I'm happy because I only need one sort of cable now.

 

[Grench]

...

You seem to be under the impression that there are two Micro USB ports on the Pyra and replacing one of them with a USB C would be easily done.

There is a full function microUSB 3.0 OTG port AND a microUSB charging only port.

The MicroUSB 3.0 OTG port is the wider one. This one has a ton of tricks up it's sleeves. It can be either a host to other devices OR can be set to make the Pyra a device for another computer. It can run at the maximum speeds that the Pyra's SoC is capable of communicating at allowing for hubs, gigabit ethernet adapters and more - but you will likely need to purchase a microUSB OTG adapter - they're readily available online.

The 'other' microUSB port is a charging and debug port. It is not capable of 'normal' USB operations. It exists so that the Pyra can be charged via commonly available microUSB cables while other stuff is connected to the microUSB 3.0 OTG port. There are some hidden data capabilities in this one, but they are not USB spec - more like a set of debug pins.

There are two more USB type A ports.
One is a USB 2.0 port with USB 2.0 functionality.
The other is a USB 3.0 port with USB 2.0 functionality and the other 4 pins used for eSATA.

However, replacing any of those with a USB C port would result in absolutely no gain in function or capability. Without a major redesign of the main board (especially charging circuits) AND a new SoC board, it would be an aesthetic USB C port only. It would have none of the capabilities that yield benefits from USB C (fast charging, alternate modes (display port & HDMI), faster data).

You seem to have obsessed over ED mentioning it as a possible consideration when prompted by a userland question. I think it is great that he considers these things. He also said that he would like to replace the entire back of the Pyra with a metal plate similar to ATX computer motherboard fitments so that changes in port configuration would be easier. He also mentioned that he would like to make the device 2-3 mm thinner and have a more custom-sized heat sink. Lots of ideas. Ideas are good to consider.

By the time the mainboard, SoC board and case are redesigned and properly re-worked to incorporate a USB C port and it's related expected functionality, it would probably be better to simply start over from the ground up (or nearly so) on the next version of the device. I expect that to be 2-3+ years away if ever. For that to even be a consideration, this device, the Pyra, will need to sell in self-justifying and sequel-justifying quantities. Sitting on the sidelines waiting for a USB C version of the Pyra is likely a very long wait for a bus that never runs.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

There are some hidden data capabilities in this one, but they are not USB spec - more like a set of debug pins.

It's a standard USB UART chip connected to the SoC's debugging serial interface, this is fully USB spec conform. There is no magic behind it, just another off-the-shelve IC.

It would have none of the capabilities that yield benefits from USB C (fast charging, alternate modes (display port & HDMI), faster data).

And you can't plug anything upside down, that is being handled by external circuity as well. The 4th dimension USB anomaly just reached a new level.

 

[dracmas]

I'm happy either way. If it can be charged with an older Samsung phone cable or the one I have for the note 8 I'd be set. I'm just hoping this will be done by the end of the year as the cracking on my screen is getting really bad on the curved note 8.

 

[Grench]

It's a standard USB UART chip connected to the SoC's debugging serial interface, this is fully USB spec conform. There is no magic behind it, just another off-the-shelve IC.

So, if I plugged a microUSB to type A adapter and a flash drive into it, would I be able to mount it normally? I had understood it did not behave like a normal end user would expect a standard microUSB port to behave for most purposes.

And you can't plug anything upside down, that is being handled by external circuity as well. The 4th dimension USB anomaly just reached a new level.

You're right - I missed that point in the laundry list.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

So, if I plugged a microUSB to type A adapter and a flash drive into it, would I be able to mount it normally? I had understood it did not behave like a normal end user would expect a standard microUSB port to behave for most purposes.

It appears as a common UART USB device. This only avoids exposing a dedicated serial interface by throwing more hardware at it, it does not offer anything beyond what said UART IC is capable of.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

I wish it was an RS-232 port.

 

[Grench]

It appears as a common UART USB device. This only avoids exposing a dedicated serial interface by throwing more hardware at it, it does not offer anything beyond what said UART IC is capable of.

Right. But for the rest of us in the dumb user population, this microUSB port is, effectively, just for charging and not to be considered for use as a normal plug & play USB port for standard USB tasks. Is that a more correct statement?

 

[Beard Lost in the Woods]

it would probably be better to simply start over from the ground up (or nearly so) on the next version of the device. I expect that to be 2-3+ years away if ever. For that to even be a consideration, this device, the Pyra, will need to sell in self-justifying and sequel-justifying quantities.

Wat? You do understand that you are not making a point whatsoever, right? You're just repeating what AVahne just said. Just admit it already, you and Caine are trolls.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

But for the rest of us in the dumb user population

The rest of the dumb user population has never ever seen any other device that has more than one Micro-USB port before. What do you think they'll make out of having an USB 2.0 and 3.0 Micro-USB jack?

 

[Swordfish II]

Wat? You do understand that you are not making a point whatsoever, right? You're just repeating what AVahne just said. Just admit it already, you and Caine are trolls.

Sigh they have been here a long time. As have I. We are just trying to prevent this guy from missing out on the Pyra for a cosmetic change that likely won't happen.

 

[levi]

I was a valuable service to me for Beard to pull out that quote in Grench's post, which I must have glossed over the first time I read it, at least for me.

People still wanted to buy Pandora's five years after first production or thereabouts, long after the CPU and other parts were out of stock basically everywhere. That I guess it part of the inspiration between making the Pyra modular, so new CPUs can be produced and made into boards before the old one gets dropped by the channel.

ED already spoke in the last stream about making the back panel of the Pyra actually into a panel proper, such that as you unscrew the bottom and pull the electronics out, the panel will come with and drop off. Need different ports, just get a different panel. Mind you he also identified places where the current case can be shrunk, so I guess doing that and making the back panel fit can be done in the same set of mould changes.

 

[AVahne]

This is getting out of hand.
Your assumptions and good intentions come off as belittling and spiteful. You may truly feel that you're doing me and others like me a favor explaining how USB C is pointless and how it is a waste of your time, however you're more likely to drive people away from this project than to convince them to drop the cash for one right away.
I waited til the final batch of Pandoras to get one (hell I got a rickety, but lovely Classic model). I kept an eye out for years for a device I didn't think actually existed (oh, sorry guys...uh...bad news.....I can't get back into the debug menu......at least I've confirmed OTG works ahahah..............*cries*). Hell I've been watching this project for years, just like you guys have. I can wait. I may not have preordered yet, but that doesn't mean I'll never get one.
Like I've said, I might get one when Link puts them up on his shop. Or, I might not. If ED does a USB C mainboard down the line, then AWESOME. If not, then oh well. If I ended up waiting, then at least I would be coming in when this delicious box of wine colored goodness has had time to age wonderfully and mature. It wouldn't have been for nothing.
And finally, I'm not missing out on anything. This board is here. I can watch the going ons of the community and follow Pyra software (and hardware) development. I can see how everyone's doing, if they decide to share it. I can see how everyone else is enjoying their Pyras once they're out in the wild.
So I don't need you to tell me what's worth my time nor that any use case I may have for any potential aspect of this device is worth it just because you deem it not to be.
Good day

 

[Grench]

This is getting out of hand.

Agreed. Please read the thread title out loud. Do it again. Consider your requests/demands for changes being stated as conditions required for you to purchase one. No chance you might see how that might be offensive to a thousand people who have been relatively patiently waiting for a couple of years for this point?

We should be line dancing in the street wearing nothing but big smiles, not discussing cosmetic changes.

 

[rygD]

I don't line dance, and wouldn't even consider it in the street, and also probably am a bit too shy to do it wearing nothing but a smile.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Can we just stop arguing though? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, including about when or whether they buy a Pyra.

 

[Swordfish II]

This is getting out of hand.
Your assumptions and good intentions come off as belittling and spiteful. You may truly feel that you're doing me and others like me a favor explaining how USB C is pointless and how it is a waste of your time, however you're more likely to drive people away from this project than to convince them to drop the cash for one right away.
I waited til the final batch of Pandoras to get one (hell I got a rickety, but lovely Classic model). I kept an eye out for years for a device I didn't think actually existed (oh, sorry guys...uh...bad news.....I can't get back into the debug menu......at least I've confirmed OTG works ahahah..............*cries*). Hell I've been watching this project for years, just like you guys have. I can wait. I may not have preordered yet, but that doesn't mean I'll never get one.
Like I've said, I might get one when Link puts them up on his shop. Or, I might not. If ED does a USB C mainboard down the line, then AWESOME. If not, then oh well. If I ended up waiting, then at least I would be coming in when this delicious box of wine colored goodness has had time to age wonderfully and mature. It wouldn't have been for nothing.
And finally, I'm not missing out on anything. This board is here. I can watch the going ons of the community and follow Pyra software (and hardware) development. I can see how everyone's doing, if they decide to share it. I can see how everyone else is enjoying their Pyras once they're out in the wild.
So I don't need you to tell me what's worth my time nor that any use case I may have for any potential aspect of this device is worth it just because you deem it not to be.
Good day

So you speak of belittling? Did you read what you have written?

You do you, but stop making "suggestions" that could prevent or delay production for those of us with actual money in the game.

 

[TrashyMG]

Guys,
I don't care who did or said what, but this thread will be locked if this argument keeps going.