The average consumer

[WizardStan]

Hak, that's what Android was 3 years ago. If the Pandora had been out when it was scheduled to be, with Android at the helm it would have been terrible. The developer SDK still had a long way to go. To be fair, the Angstrom cut was apparently rushed to meet the deadline that wasn't required, but at least it was functional with a fairly well SDK: pretty much anything that can already run on Linux.


Man, I tell you truth, with how far Android has come it would be foolish to not make the effort to have it on a P2, but if Craig actually wants it he's going to have to do more than beg. That's the problem when you basically rely on community effort towards an open project: the community does what the community wants.


Players just want something they can drag and drop, and the PND format does this in a way that no other format has ever been able to. Packages require installation and when working with multiple SD cards that may or may not exist at any time it can put the installation into an ambiguous state. ZIP files could likely have worked, but the squashFS format is justifiably superior at this task; the only reason to use zip is the ease with which they can be created, but with free tools that have long been available for squashFS, this argument becomes moot.

 

[Korlithiel]

And here I was thinking that this device, for what it was designed to do, is about as close to general public friendly as it gets for the resources available to the project team. It's about the same as a PSP that already has a custom firmware on it, and is far easier to keep up with the scene and far fewer reasons to even entertain the thoughts of not updating regularly.

 

[zdwg]

Any future handheld from me will run Android.

I've also heard that Android eats quite alot ressources, maybe even more than our Angström Linux does on the Pandora. However, I have no proof of that and it can be wrong or even quite thee opposite.

Using an HTC Amaze 4G, (Android 2.3.4)


According to Task Manager:


Phone 828 MB RAM


Used: 422MB


Free: 404MB


I'd say it's a pretty fat system. Doesn't take much to fill up the rest of that free space either.


I heard someone use the arguement once that a GUI is actually a bit more complicated (to program?) in a Linux enviroment but not sure how true that is...


But for what it's worth: Android, OSX, Windows, etc... all have hundreds of developers making the underlying OS's and even to the extent of their programs, whereas Linux tends to only have one or two developers working on a single OS/programs, with a lot of public betas.


I like the direction the Pandora's taken with things. From what I'm seeing (don't have one yet), wouldn't suggest changing anything either... all prospective improvements have been mentioned in other posts elsewhere in the forums so I can't really touch on that matter (again, since not having one myself I have no opinion on it).


Far as original topic of the post is concerned, and others have brought it up, I don't see that here either.

 

[moz]

Using an HTC Amaze 4G, (Android 2.3.4)


According to Task Manager:


Phone 828 MB RAM


Used: 422MB


Free: 404MB

HTC Sense just makes it a lot worse,


For example on my Gio (using stock 2.3.4 rom) I get 134/278MB

 

[Nintendo]

Hmmm...

 

[FaeMinx]

I have an HTC Sensation, and have had it for a while. I do not like Android very much... and I do not like touch gaming.


Having said that, I have no problem with the P1 or P2 having the ability to boot into Android... but it should only be optional. I would be most upset if Android were forced upon me.


And having said *that*... I would still prefer a P2 running Android over any smart phone.


Back on topic. I would regard myself as almost an average consumer, and I think the support from these forums is second to none! I honestly don't know what you are complaining about.


However (and here I'm going to be rather ugly and opinionated), if the average consumer you are talking about is incapable of building a pc even if all the components are already provided along with detailed instructions of how to do so... or at the very least, install an operating system and make sure all the drivers for your components are up to date (with the use of the internet)... then... well... if they can't do that... in my opinion, they have no business owning a Pandora unless they have someone in the family or living close by that can babysit them.

 

[jeremy]

I have been watching these boards since this summer and from what I (someone who has never had his hands on a Pandora before and has minimal experience with Linux in general) can tell the support forum does this job pretty well and and apart from a few individuals everyone is pretty helpful when it comes to newbies.

However (and here I'm going to be rather ugly and opinionated), if the average consumer you are talking about is incapable of building a pc even if all the components are already provided along with detailed instructions of how to do so... or at the very least, install an operating system and make sure all the drivers for your components are up to date (with the use of the internet)... then... well... if they can't do that... in my opinion, they have no business owning a Pandora unless they have someone in the family or living close by that can babysit them.

I can do that however

 

[foxblock]

Every few weeks someone comes in and says this about the Pandora.


I entirely agree with you - it's unnecessarily hard to use.


Believe me I fought long and hard for it not to be like this.


Fortunately Android has come along and is (more or less) what I think an interface should be like.


Any future handheld from me will run Android.


I'm sorry about the Pandora situation, it's out of my control. There are people who enjoy lintarding things for no good reason.

Every day a developer comes along and mentions how great the Pandora is the way it is.


I agree certain programs and part of the default OS are hard to use for someone without Linux experience, then again the current system gives a lot of freedom (to developers mostly, which in turn give it to the user in form of programs/alternate OS/etc.), it's extensible and everyone can bring something to the table to better the situation.


You say you wanted the Pandora to be easy to use, you wanted Android (which years ago, when the OS was built, was rather unusable) and it appears like you wanted something similar to the iPhone or PSP - on the other hand you tell critics to "Go buy a PSP".


The PSP is not open obviously, as isn't the iPhone and this actually is a very strong point of the Pandora you realized several years ago (heck it even made it into the name of the companies, including your company). This also is the main reason there are so many, different things available for the Pandora, every dev can literally do whatever he pleases - we got games, we got office tools (fully functional OOo even), we got music players, we got full OS, and much more - many of those would not be possible with an Android based OS.


The drawback obviously is that every dev has his own standards and biases, so the software environment looks like a garden, which was not trimmed for a year - sure it's beautiful to look at and full of different flora and fauna, but sometimes hard to get through and find the things you actually want/need. A problem the iPhone with its strict rules and regulations does not have.


You say you want it easy to use and I agree with you, this is a noble and good cause, but then where is your participation here or here? Where we try to create exactly that and invite everyone in the community to help.


You created apps.openpoandora.org as an easy-to-use place to get PNDs and while it was usable back then, repo.openpandora.org came along and is just better in every regard. It's a nice website front-end with good search and sort functions, it builds on a community created back-end enabling native Pandora-software front-ends and ultimately is as easy to use as the Apple AppStore (for users AND developers!), which you seem to strive for (It even got commercial apps lately!). Granted PNDStore is not on par with the native iPhone program, but Panorama peaks around the corner and looks oh-so-beautiful (and for the CLI lovers Cloudef is working on some projects, too - so people are really trying to please everyone).


Best part of this: All development processes are OPEN, everyone can participate, everyone can help, can form critique or present bugs and many people actually do!


Yet you apparently feel it's not quite there yet and want to create your own thing, which is great, but you keep the development process closed, so it's your private thing and eventually might turn out great or rubbish, we don't know, we can't help.


When it finally will turn up, it will get judged objectively on what's already there - nobody turns down your ideas just because. For anything you created there have been reasons (and a debate of those) why it has been turned down.


This has nothing to do with being a "lintard", you just have to get everyone under some hats and the current OS appears to be the best way to go currently as it combines openness with some user-friendliness, which Android does not (yes it pleases guys like the OP, but many others would not be as happy and I think those people are actually the majority - you did not get those 20 pages of replies on your proposal for nothing).


Maybe sometimes developers don't see what's best for Average Joe, maybe you see that, I don't know, but the good thing is every project mentioned above is actually OPEN, so Average Joe is highly invited to participate in the creation. Your project is not and to me that is actually completely against the mentality of the Pandora - an OPEN system.


So in my eyes it seems you actually don't know what you want the Pandora to be or don't "get" what the Pandora is about and what makes it so great for a big part of the community.


This is no way meant to offence you, but I don't see a consistent line in your argumentation and while there certainly are problems we need to tackle in order to eliminate complaints/reports like the one of the OP, we have to do it as a community, together.


Openness and discussion are the heart of the Pandora, so if you have a great idea to make the system better: share it!


Oh and if your point is "This is not what I wanted, but I have moved on", then please stop making comments like this, because you are just diminishing the hard and free work everyone has put in the Pandora, be it software, the OS or community.


Sorry for the off-topic rant, but this is something I had to hold in for a while now...

 

[FaeMinx]

We need a 'like' button or something similar on these forums.


Well said foxblock!

 

[moz]

TL;DR


Jk, good post Foxblock.


@Faeminx, I've been saying the same thing for ages lol.

 

[Binky]

We need a 'like' button or something similar on these forums.


Well said foxblock!

There must be an IPBoard plugin for like buttons!

 

[mcobit]

I'd like to tell you a little story:


When I ordered the Pandora, I did it because I felt like not buying an idevice, which costs a lot of money, but I can't do what I want with it.


I found the Pandoraproject by accident while crawling some newsposts. I read and lurked a lot in the gp32x forums, when the hardware specifications were talked about. I didn't even have an account back then.


Then the preorders were opened and I was very exited. I got mine in very early and so I was one of the first users, who got their Pandora in Germany.


When I got it, I had very small experience with linux. I had installed Ubuntu und I knew some commandline commands, but I was far away from a dayly linuxuser.


I liked the openness of linux though.


When the pandora came to me, there were some emulators and programs, far from optimized and I thought, that it is not easy to use the pandora.


After using it for some snes emulation and as a mediaplayer for some time, I remembered, that his is an open device. So I thought, that I could start to LEARN, what could be done with it.


I joined IRC chat and there were a lot nice people, who helped me understand how thing work.


I learned a lot about linux.


After some time, I wanted to give something back to the community, as I had one of the first pandoras and thought every hand is needed to make this a success.


So I packaged up some java-apps, that ran out of the box with wizardstans java pnd, for ease of use.


I learned to work with the pnd format and how to write and read xml stuff. Also I learned how to make apps write to the appdatafolder instead of the nand etc., and why this is important.


Then I moved on to package some pygame apps, which was also easy.


Then I thought, that I'd like to know more and wanted to get an usb dvbtstick to work I had here.


To build the drivers I googled and asked a lot, but finally I built the kernel and the driver on my pandora and you don't know how satisfying it was to get this to work.


Today I often think these moments, when you get something going by yourself and not beg for it, till someone does it are missing for most people.


Try to ask apple, if they build a driver for some peripheral you want to use on an ipod....


With the new knowledge of building stuff, I tried to build some games and apps on the pandora and with the help of the community, I was able to build and package them and give them to the community to enjoy.


Sebt3 built his toolchain then and taught me how to crosscompile, which I learned and used to bring even more apps to the community to use.


Also I try to help out, if somebody has questions on the forum or try to give knowledge to the ones, who also want to develop for the pandora.


All this was and is one big learningexperience for me and now I can use and understand how linux and the pandora work a lot better. Also I can now read programcode and understand how it works most of the time. I still can't code my own programs, but that will be the next big step I am going at now.


So it is all about learning and doing for me, not about demanding and just drag and drop.


For some people this might be fine, but for me, I always wanted to learn and use the new knowledge to help others and the project, where I can.


The pandoraproject gives us a great tool, that might not be mainstream, but imho it doesn't have to be.


It makes us think again while using a computer. Something I missed since I tried to get games to run on my first computer (286 with 16 MHz), where you had to think about what you are doing and how to make programs run fast or free memory for them to use.


So thanks for a great expirience so far to the whole pandorateam!


It is a thrill to learn everyday of using it with many years to come.


Who knows where this ride will end...


Edit: Also, today I run linux on my private computer exclusively

 

[birdswithskirts]

I'd like to tell you a little story:


When I ordered the Pandora, I did it because I felt like not buying an idevice, which costs a lot of money, but I can't do what I want with it.


I found the Pandoraproject by accident while crawling some newsposts. I read and lurked a lot in the gp32x forums, when the hardware specifications were talked about. I didn't even have an account back then.


Then the preorders were opened and I was very exited. I got mine in very early and so I was one of the first users, who got their Pandora in Germany.


When I got it, I had very small experience with linux. I had installed Ubuntu und I knew some commandline commands, but I was far away from a dayly linuxuser.


I liked the openness of linux though.


When the pandora came to me, there were some emulators and programs, far from optimized and I thought, that it is not easy to use the pandora.


After using it for some snes emulation and as a mediaplayer for some time, I remembered, that his is an open device. So I thought, that I could start to LEARN, what could be done with it.


I joined IRC chat and there were a lot nice people, who helped me understand how thing work.


I learned a lot about linux.


After some time, I wanted to give something back to the community, as I had one of the first pandoras and thought every hand is needed to make this a success.


So I packaged up some java-apps, that ran out of the box with wizardstans java pnd, for ease of use.


I learned to work with the pnd format and how to write and read xml stuff. Also I learned how to make apps write to the appdatafolder instead of the nand etc., and why this is important.


Then I moved on to package some pygame apps, which was also easy.


Then I thought, that I'd like to know more and wanted to get an usb dvbtstick to work I had here.


To build the drivers I googled and asked a lot, but finally I built the kernel and the driver on my pandora and you don't know how satisfying it was to get this to work.


Today I often think these moments, when you get something going by yourself and not beg for it, till someone does it are missing for most people.


Try to ask apple, if they build a driver for some peripheral you want to use on an ipod....


With the new knowledge of building stuff, I tried to build some games and apps on the pandora and with the help of the community, I was able to build and package them and give them to the community to enjoy.


Sebt3 built his toolchain then and taught me how to crosscompile, which I learned and used to bring even more apps to the community to use.


Also I try to help out, if somebody has questions on the forum or try to give knowledge to the ones, who also want to develop for the pandora.


All this was and is one big learningexperience for me and now I can use and understand how linux and the pandora work a lot better. Also I can now read programcode and understand how it works most of the time. I still can't code my own programs, but that will be the next big step I am going at now.


So it is all about learning and doing for me, not about demanding and just drag and drop.


For some people this might be fine, but for me, I always wanted to learn and use the new knowledge to help others and the project, where I can.


The pandoraproject gives us a great tool, that might not be mainstream, but imho it doesn't have to be.


It makes us think again while using a computer. Something I missed since I tried to get games to run on my first computer (286 with 16 MHz), where you had to think about what you are doing and how to make programs run fast or free memory for them to use.


So thanks for a great expirience so far to the whole pandorateam!


It is a thrill to learn everyday of using it with many years to come.


Who knows where this ride will end...


Edit: Also, today I run linux on my private computer exclusively

and thank g.d you did learn because you are a big time value here.


However, not everyone wants to plunk 500 plus on something to LEARN. Unfortunately there are people who buy this device not realizing how much effort there potentially is to achieve the maximal experience. They might take a stab at it then put it up for sale,which I have seen as reasons for selling.


Yes ignorance is no excuse but that is human nature at times. It certainly has become more user friendly since the get go.


Really I think this is a great machine for what it is but a bit too esoteric for the average person. And i think that is the bottom line... meaning...who is the target audience for this? and how much does this company need to sell to make a profit?


Not everyone has the mental capacity or time to put into this machine as much as you did.


I enjoy this device but I went through h.ll and back to get whatever I could out of it. It still scares the bejesus out of me at times but for me no regrets. I am far from a dev. Just an avid retro gamer who contributes at times.


I still cannot figure out dosbox to save my arse in a fire...oh well.

 

[mcobit]

The point I am trying to make is, that it wouldn't have been half the fun, if everything worked out of the box

 

[birdswithskirts]

The point I am trying to make is, that it wouldn't have been half the fun, if everything worked out of the box

I understand and respect your point. You are a valuable dev. and a gifted one IMHO.


If it was not for folks like you this project would have been doomed long ago.


But my point is... I do not believe that is the typical reasoning for many who want to buy a gaming retro machine/mini PC. Wether they are misinformed or not is another issue but a real one at that.


Some people might say if you are too stupid don't bother. That is a high brow perspective i detest.


I believe intelligence comes in many facets. How much intelligence,learning,perseverance does one want to contribute to play games? It certainly will be easier for some than others.


That too is my point.

 

[diligentcircle]

You love commas, don't you, mcrobit?

and thank g.d you did learn because you are a big time value here.


However, not everyone wants to plunk 500 plus on something to LEARN. Unfortunately there are people who buy this device not realizing how much effort there potentially is to achieve the maximal experience. They might take a stab at it then put it up for sale,which I have seen as reasons for selling.


Yes ignorance is no excuse but that is human nature at times. It certainly has become more user friendly since the get go.


Really I think this is a great machine for what it is but a bit too esoteric for the average person. And i think that is the bottom line... meaning...who is the target audience for this? and how much does this company need to sell to make a profit?


Not everyone has the mental capacity or time to put into this machine as much as you did.


I enjoy this device but I went through h.ll and back to get whatever I could out of it. It still scares the bejesus out of me at times but for me no regrets. I am far from a dev. Just an avid retro gamer who contributes at times.


I still cannot figure out dosbox to save my arse in a fire...oh well.

I dunno, I didn't put that much effort into learning how to use the Pandora at this point. I get that you have trouble using DOSBox, but the version on the Repo (DOSBox EX) is much simplified compared to the normal DOSBox (i.e. what you would use on a PC), because it both automatically "mounts" a drive (D containing all devices (/media) and includes a visual UI (I'm pretty sure there's a more specific term, maybe it's just GUI). You normally have to first mount a C drive, then navigate to the directory with the command line, then type the name of the executable or batch file. DOSBox EX's UI means you can do it visually (though it's still not as simple as Windows).


(EDIT: I just looked at that topic again... you need to rename the files to numbers now?!)


I can't think of anything on the Pandora more complicated than DOSBox or even as complicated. It wasn't particularly obvious to me that L+Start opens the menu in gpFCE-GP2X, but a quick look at the docs helped me there. The OS itself isn't difficult to understand at all; granted, I was already familiar with Linux and even somewhat familiar with XFCE, but it really is no more complicated than Windows. It's just different. And, well, better, but that's for another topic.

 

[mcobit]

I love commas, but they don't always like me...

 

[birdswithskirts]

You love commas, don't you, mcrobit?

and thank g.d you did learn because you are a big time value here.


However, not everyone wants to plunk 500 plus on something to LEARN. Unfortunately there are people who buy this device not realizing how much effort there potentially is to achieve the maximal experience. They might take a stab at it then put it up for sale,which I have seen as reasons for selling.


Yes ignorance is no excuse but that is human nature at times. It certainly has become more user friendly since the get go.


Really I think this is a great machine for what it is but a bit too esoteric for the average person. And i think that is the bottom line... meaning...who is the target audience for this? and how much does this company need to sell to make a profit?


Not everyone has the mental capacity or time to put into this machine as much as you did.


I enjoy this device but I went through h.ll and back to get whatever I could out of it. It still scares the bejesus out of me at times but for me no regrets. I am far from a dev. Just an avid retro gamer who contributes at times.


I still cannot figure out dosbox to save my arse in a fire...oh well.

I dunno, I didn't put that much effort into learning how to use the Pandora at this point. I get that you have trouble using DOSBox, but the version on the Repo (DOSBox EX) is much simplified compared to the normal DOSBox (i.e. what you would use on a PC), because it both automatically "mounts" a drive (D containing all devices (/media) and includes a visual UI (I'm pretty sure there's a more specific term, maybe it's just GUI). You normally have to first mount a C drive, then navigate to the directory with the command line, then type the name of the executable or batch file. DOSBox EX's UI means you can do it visually (though it's still not as simple as Windows).


(EDIT: I just looked at that topic again... you need to rename the files to numbers now?! What's that for?)


I can't think of anything on the Pandora more complicated than DOSBox or even as complicated. It wasn't particularly obvious to me that L+Start opens the menu in gpFCE-GP2X, but a quick look at the docs helped me there. The OS itself isn't difficult to understand at all; granted, I was already familiar with Linux and even somewhat familiar with XFCE, but it really is no more complicated than Windows. It's just different. And, well, better, but that's for another topic.

You just don't understand that this isn't all about me.

 

[foxblock]

Really I think this is a great machine for what it is but a bit too esoteric for the average person. And i think that is the bottom line... meaning...who is the target audience for this? and how much does this company need to sell to make a profit?

The first one is a good question and something the creators of the Pandora do not seem to have one shared opinion on in my eyes.


Currently it pleases a very small niche of the market. You have to put some effort to get the most out of the Pandora, but when you get used to it, you have all the freedom in the world to do with it whatever the heck you please (to most people THE selling point of the device).


Craig seems to want it placed somewhere more mainstream/mass-market, which currently would not be possible at all, the device is not ready for this (both hardware - it's not cutting edge, which as stupid as it is, is a big selling point, also problems with case and wifi would have to go away - and software - non-consistent UIs, bugs, lack of polish, etc.).


Android would probably solve all those software problems, but it would also totally shift the target audience.


This is totally fine, but it has to be a consistent business and marketing strategy.


I think some people bought a Pandora in the belief it would be a PSP with better specs, unlocked out of the box, a hardware keyboad and tons of emulators - which it is not and which has not been made entirely clear in interviews/reviews/etc.


Maybe the initial plan for the device was different, but now it's main target audience sees/wants a somewhat geeky, fully featured Linux-PC for on-the-go. And with the openness of the device it is in many ways formed by the community, so it has become exactly that. Some might consider that a good thing, others don't.


This natural development and due to that inconsistency was probably caused by the lack of business experience and I am sure we will see a more refined and clearer plan for Pandora 2.

 

[notaz]

I'm sorry about the Pandora situation, it's out of my control. There are people who enjoy lintarding things for no good reason.

Could you please explain why it's out of your control? You act as if the device is locked and we are the only ones holding the keys that allow making firmwares or something. This OMAP has it's all security features disabled, it can boot anything, so go ahead and get it to boot Android, or get someone else to do it for you. Hell with all that dev knowledge that I've read in other threads you have, you should be able to do it yourself.


Like it was already said, the community does what it likes. And we did what we like, just like everyone else. It's not like the firmware development was paid for, it's a community project just like anything else ever released for pandora, only announced semi-officially by ED and put on the main website. If you don't like how it turned out, you should only blame yourself, not anyone else.