Talk With A Real Fcc/ce Certification Engineer.

[lulzfish]

I think ED said he "knew a guy" and that FCC testing should only take a week or two at worst.
But it has to be done with a production model, so they can't do it until the case is complete and they've assembled at least one fully mass-produced Pandora.

 

[EvilDragon]

Yep, testing is really fast, as those companies don't have to do that much nowadays (less device for testing because of the crisis).
I've got two companies at hand which told me they have a 2 - 5 days leadtime (and testing is only one day).

We'll get the FCC, sure. We want to have US distributors sell the Pandora with later batches. Besides, it's nothing new you NEED an FCC testing and ID even if the module is tested.
But if the module ISN'T tested, you need to test that first and then the device itself (you need to make two tests basically). However, usind a non-tested module could lead to serious trouble... if it fails, you'd need to redesign the complete board. That's why we used one where the test exists.
It doesn't need to have an FCC Id.
Think about that: If the module wouldn't have been tested and WE had to test it and sent the documents to the company after that, they wouldn't have an FCC ID for the module, but it IS tested already. Maybe that's what happened here. And maybe nobody had tested it at the time you asked them...?

Back to CE / FCC:
FCC is very similar to FCC. Usually, if it passes CE, the device will also pass FCC. But we CAN'T do FCC with prototypes, you CAN do CE with prototypes.
So if we wanted to make FCC, we have to wait until the final unit is there (and we WILL do that, as told).

Still, I can't imagine it's much different in America than here in Germany:
You can import and use devices which DON'T have CE. It's even legal. But YOU'RE responsible if somebody does report you (neighbour, for example, if your device disturbs his TV or radio, etc.) and it's really the device you bought.
I guess it's the same in America: You can import them (without the customs taking them away), but if they DO something bad, you're responsible.
They shouldn't do something bad, though, as they WILL have CE when we ship them out.
This only applies if it's the consumer importing the devices.

It's DIFFERENT if you SELL them from WITHIN the country.
It's NOT allowed for anybody within the EU the import and SELL devices without having CE.
So if it's B2B (business to business), you absolutely NEED the certification.
And I'm almost sure it's the same within America.

As we don't sell from within America, we shouldn't need FCC. We WILL still do the test - for any distributors wanting to sell later batches of the Panda

So, what we COULD offer if you're living in America and you're scared is to WAIT until we did he testing and put the ID on the devices. It's your own personal delay
The rest will get the delivery as soon as it's out

 

[quartercast]

FCC is very similar to FCC.

Sigged

 

[noonioo]

Yep, testing is really fast, as those companies don't have to do that much nowadays (less device for testing because of the crisis).
I've got two companies at hand which told me they have a 2 - 5 days leadtime (and testing is only one day).

We'll get the FCC, sure. We want to have US distributors sell the Pandora with later batches. Besides, it's nothing new you NEED an FCC testing and ID even if the module is tested.

.....

So, what we COULD offer if you're living in America and you're scared is to WAIT until we did he testing and put the ID on the devices. It's your own personal delay
The rest will get the delivery as soon as it's out

So does it mean the first 4000 will not be printed with fcc logo even this kind of test will only take 2-5 days and then get the fcc id?

andora1: h34r:

 

[spaceballs3000]

Yep, testing is really fast, as those companies don't have to do that much nowadays (less device for testing because of the crisis).
I've got two companies at hand which told me they have a 2 - 5 days leadtime (and testing is only one day).

We'll get the FCC, sure. We want to have US distributors sell the Pandora with later batches. Besides, it's nothing new you NEED an FCC testing and ID even if the module is tested.

.....

So, what we COULD offer if you're living in America and you're scared is to WAIT until we did he testing and put the ID on the devices. It's your own personal delay
The rest will get the delivery as soon as it's out

So does it mean the first 4000 will not be printed with fcc logo even this kind of test will only take 2-5 days and then get the fcc id?

andora1: h34r:

Agreed something sounds strange, if EvilDragon is correct and they are able to do it in 2-5 days I assume it would be done at the same time as CE test. BTW it took 2.5 weeks to get our product certified for FCC & CE (if we just did FCC or just CE it would have been 2 weeks.) And we used a final prototype case, i.e. no further changes were allowed to be done on it.

I get the impression money is short on hand, if EvilDragon is accurate on his 2-5 days lead time.

 

[hedwards]

Still, I can't imagine it's much different in America than here in Germany:
You can import and use devices which DON'T have CE. It's even legal. But YOU'RE responsible if somebody does report you (neighbour, for example, if your device disturbs his TV or radio, etc.) and it's really the device you bought.
I guess it's the same in America: You can import them (without the customs taking them away), but if they DO something bad, you're responsible.
They shouldn't do something bad, though, as they WILL have CE when we ship them out.
This only applies if it's the consumer importing the devices.

Well, it's a matter of they're unlikely to know unless it's causing interference or something else. For the most part, if it passes the CE, it's unlikely to cause enough of a disturbance to get the FCC looking for the device. That's not really the same thing as legal, but realistically unless it's causing interference the likelihood of the FCC doing a random screen of it is basically zero.

Last I checked the FCC did have the legal authority to look for anything that was causing interference whether or not it's in a public place. I'd say it's probably better to worry about the Pandora causing you to get struck by lightening as the FCC doesn't do those searches often and the CE should be close enough to prevent that sort of disturbance.

 

[EvilDragon]

So does it mean the first 4000 will not be printed with fcc logo even this kind of test will only take 2-5 days and then get the fcc id?
andora1: h34r:

Well, the TESTING will take 2 - 5 days. Approval by American Government for the FCC and get your FCC ID does take AT LEAST another 1 - 2 weeks.
So basically, we'd need on of the first mass produced devices, make the FCC test and fill in the application for your FCC ID, wait until you get it, put that on the sticker with model and other informations, and THEN mass produce the rest of the Pandoras with the final sticker.
So even if testing doesn't take long, the whole process would delay everything for about 1,5 months... you don't want that, do you?

With CE, it's easier. You can do a CE with the prototype and your ID is not needed on the sticker. So you can prepare the stickers and put them on the mass produced Pandoras.
No need for a delay.

Agreed something sounds strange, if EvilDragon is correct and they are able to do it in 2-5 days I assume it would be done at the same time as CE test. BTW it took 2.5 weeks to get our product certified for FCC & CE (if we just did FCC or just CE it would have been 2 weeks.) And we used a final prototype case, i.e. no further changes were allowed to be done on it.

The FCC certification takes 1 - 2 weeks, yes. Not the testing itself.
And for CE, no application at any government is needed like for FCC.

Usually, you can do FCC and CE at the same time, but that would mean we'd have to wait for the tests for the first mass produced Pandoras - as the only final prototype case we'll get is one from the mass production.
That's why we decided to do CE before that (we can also test FCC, but can't applicate it) and FCC when we get the first units.

I get the impression money is short on hand, if EvilDragon is accurate on his 2-5 days lead time.

No, basically, it would be cheaper doing both tests at once
So we actually do need to pay more.

 

[Pleng]

[quote name='EvilDragon' date='18 July 2009 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1247910188' With CE, it's easier. You can do a CE with the prototype[/quote]

So has a prototype been sent for CE testing?

 

[spaceballs3000]

So does it mean the first 4000 will not be printed with fcc logo even this kind of test will only take 2-5 days and then get the fcc id?
andora1: h34r:

Well, the TESTING will take 2 - 5 days. Approval by American Government for the FCC and get your FCC ID does take AT LEAST another 1 - 2 weeks.
So basically, we'd need on of the first mass produced devices, make the FCC test and fill in the application for your FCC ID, wait until you get it, put that on the sticker with model and other informations, and THEN mass produce the rest of the Pandoras with the final sticker.
So even if testing doesn't take long, the whole process would delay everything for about 1,5 months... you don't want that, do you?

With CE, it's easier. You can do a CE with the prototype and your ID is not needed on the sticker. So you can prepare the stickers and put them on the mass produced Pandoras.
No need for a delay.

Agreed something sounds strange, if EvilDragon is correct and they are able to do it in 2-5 days I assume it would be done at the same time as CE test. BTW it took 2.5 weeks to get our product certified for FCC & CE (if we just did FCC or just CE it would have been 2 weeks.) And we used a final prototype case, i.e. no further changes were allowed to be done on it.

The FCC certification takes 1 - 2 weeks, yes. Not the testing itself.
And for CE, no application at any government is needed like for FCC.

Usually, you can do FCC and CE at the same time, but that would mean we'd have to wait for the tests for the first mass produced Pandoras - as the only final prototype case we'll get is one from the mass production.
That's why we decided to do CE before that (we can also test FCC, but can't applicate it) and FCC when we get the first units.

I get the impression money is short on hand, if EvilDragon is accurate on his 2-5 days lead time.

No, basically, it would be cheaper doing both tests at once
So we actually do need to pay more.

Sucks to be paying CE, and then FCC just because the delay it would cause.

 

[elwing]

Sucks to be paying CE, and then FCC just because the delay it would cause.

sure, but sucks to have delay for a FCC certification that much people do not care at all...

 

[spaceballs3000]

Sucks to be paying CE, and then FCC just because the delay it would cause.

sure, but sucks to have delay for a FCC certification that much people do not care at all...

It's not about caring, it's the legitimacy of it, there could be delays at customs or maybe even fines if not done properly.

There is a 802.11 radio (intentional radiator) in the Pandora, US rules say FCC form 740 is required (form requires FCC ID).

And yes, the odds of nothing happening is likely high if shipped without form 740, but that isn't the point.

btw other devices like GP2X Wiz, Dingoo might not have problem's is they don't have a intentional radiator in them (WiFi/bt.)

 

[elwing]

Sucks to be paying CE, and then FCC just because the delay it would cause.

sure, but sucks to have delay for a FCC certification that much people do not care at all...

It's not about caring, it's the legitimacy of it, there could be delays at customs or maybe even fines if not done properly.

There is a 802.11 radio (intentional radiator) in the Pandora, US rules say FCC form 740 is required (form requires FCC ID).

And yes, the odds of nothing happening is likely high if shipped without form 740, but that isn't the point.

btw other devices like GP2X Wiz, Dingoo might not have problem's is they don't have a intentional radiator in them (WiFi/bt.)

hasn't it stricked you that a lot of people are not from US including a good part of the devs?

 

[kloplop321]

hasn't it stricked you that a lot of people are not from US including a good part of the devs?

People should get it in their heads that this is a global operation, those in the US are very egocentric by culture, so give them a little break here.
(I am in the US)

 

[Poem58]

hasn't it stricked you that a lot of people are not from US including a good part of the devs?

those in the US are very egocentric by culture
(I am in the US)

Proved by your post? but hey! Speak for yourself! (U.S. Citizen here too) who is glad someone outside the country is making this, yet choosing unlike greedy American buisness companies, to actually do it with American companies! Something we should be doing ourselves, but we keep sending things to China and India. I find it funny I had to buy from the UK to buy American.

As for ED's posed question. No I don't want to wait. I want my Pandora! But I don't want it held in Customs forever!

 

[spaceballs3000]

Sucks to be paying CE, and then FCC just because the delay it would cause.

sure, but sucks to have delay for a FCC certification that much people do not care at all...

It's not about caring, it's the legitimacy of it, there could be delays at customs or maybe even fines if not done properly.

There is a 802.11 radio (intentional radiator) in the Pandora, US rules say FCC form 740 is required (form requires FCC ID).

And yes, the odds of nothing happening is likely high if shipped without form 740, but that isn't the point.

btw other devices like GP2X Wiz, Dingoo might not have problem's is they don't have a intentional radiator in them (WiFi/bt.)

hasn't it stricked you that a lot of people are not from US including a good part of the devs?

Gotcha, sorry I got the impression that there was a decent percentage of people from the US that ordered the Pandora. Guess I got it from all the posts of confused people what were new to the bank transfers, after the CC processing issue. I assume the builders of Pandora will want to ship outside the UK, and thus want to cover all aspects of certification, thus why the topic of this post exists, and in the context of all of my posts in this thread.

 

[elwing]

Sucks to be paying CE, and then FCC just because the delay it would cause.

sure, but sucks to have delay for a FCC certification that much people do not care at all...

It's not about caring, it's the legitimacy of it, there could be delays at customs or maybe even fines if not done properly.

There is a 802.11 radio (intentional radiator) in the Pandora, US rules say FCC form 740 is required (form requires FCC ID).

And yes, the odds of nothing happening is likely high if shipped without form 740, but that isn't the point.

btw other devices like GP2X Wiz, Dingoo might not have problem's is they don't have a intentional radiator in them (WiFi/bt.)

hasn't it stricked you that a lot of people are not from US including a good part of the devs?

Gotcha, sorry I got the impression that there was a decent percentage of people from the US that ordered the Pandora. Guess I got it from all the posts of confused people what were new to the bank transfers, after the CC processing issue. I assume the builders of Pandora will want to ship outside the UK, and thus want to cover all aspects of certification, thus why the topic of this post exists, and in the context of all of my posts in this thread.

there is a decent part of the people who ordered who comes from the US, but there's no need to delay the whole production by the time of the fcc certification as the whole 4000 pandora from the first preorder won't be made in one batch, they were talking of a 100 batch, followed by a 400 batch, and maybe after the rest? hope it will be possible to make the certification out of the 2 first batch and avoid sending these to US customers...

to avoid both delay over the whole production AND problem with US customs...

 

[hedwards]

hasn't it stricked you that a lot of people are not from US including a good part of the devs?

People should get it in their heads that this is a global operation, those in the US are very egocentric by culture, so give them a little break here.
(I am in the US)

I take it that you don't encounter very many Europeans, the French and British seem to be particularly bad in that respect. Nothing personal, just the observation that a disproportionate number of people using the term "USian" seem to come from over there. Never mind that very, very few people from the American super continent would rather be called American than the name of their nation. Beyond that it tends to be similar anywhere you wish to go, or at least anywhere you'd want to go, I'm sure there are some nations where things are so awful that it isn't the case.

But, in terms of the US, on virtually any measure one wishes to apply we do matter a great deal. I wouldn't personally have an issue with Craig delaying the units that were being shipped to the US for certification, but I do wonder about how realistic it is considering how many places things are being shipped to.

 

[gp32rich]

Sucks to be paying CE, and then FCC just because the delay it would cause.

sure, but sucks to have delay for a FCC certification that much people do not care at all...

It's not about caring, it's the legitimacy of it, there could be delays at customs or maybe even fines if not done properly.

There is a 802.11 radio (intentional radiator) in the Pandora, US rules say FCC form 740 is required (form requires FCC ID).

And yes, the odds of nothing happening is likely high if shipped without form 740, but that isn't the point.

btw other devices like GP2X Wiz, Dingoo might not have problem's is they don't have a intentional radiator in them (WiFi/bt.)

So I googled and found this ...
http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form740/740.pdf
and a FAQ!
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/faq_form_740.html

That mean's that part II - box 2 - section 2 or 7 can be X-ed as they're being imported for an individual's use and not meant to be resold and are expected to comply anyway.
and the FAQ gives an example ...

Should a Form 740 be submitted when a digital hub is imported into the United States?

* Yes, an FCC Form 740 should be submitted. A digital device is subject to the Commission's Verification procedure . A Grant of Equipment Authorization and an FCC ID are not required for devices subject to this procedure. Complete the FCC ID block of Part I of the Form 740 by entering "See Box 2 in Part II." You may then place an X into Box 2 of Part II, attesting to the fact that the device complies with FCC technical requirements. Section 15.101 of the Commission's rules provides information on the process that is required for any unintentional radiator.

 

[spaceballs3000]

So I googled and found this ...
http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form740/740.pdf
and a FAQ!
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/faq_form_740.html

That mean's that part II - box 2 - section 2 or 7 can be X-ed as they're being imported for an individual's use and not meant to be resold and are expected to comply anyway.
and the FAQ gives an example ...

Should a Form 740 be submitted when a digital hub is imported into the United States?

* Yes, an FCC Form 740 should be submitted. A digital device is subject to the Commission's Verification procedure . A Grant of Equipment Authorization and an FCC ID are not required for devices subject to this procedure. Complete the FCC ID block of Part I of the Form 740 by entering "See Box 2 in Part II." You may then place an X into Box 2 of Part II, attesting to the fact that the device complies with FCC technical requirements. Section 15.101 of the Commission's rules provides information on the process that is required for any unintentional radiator.

You can't use "Box 2 in Part II" as the Pandora was a intentional radiator device, aka not a digital hub (unintentional radiator.)

You can't use "Box 7 in Part II" (see below)

Radio frequency devices may be imported only if one or more of these conditions are met. Three or fewer radio receivers, computers, or other unintentional radiators are being imported for the individual's personal use and are not intended for sale.

Notice the "may be imported only if one or more of these conditions are met." part, let see if any one of these conditions are met.

1. "Three or fewer radio receivers" = NO - Pandora contains a RF transceiver (aka RF transmitter and receiver.)
2. "computers" = NO - computer (not laptops btw) are classified as unintentional radiator type devices, Pandora contains intentional radiator.
3. "unintentional radiators" = NO - Pandora contains intentional radiator.

 

[gilesjuk]

People sold electronics for years without all these stupid tests. While I would want a mobile phone to be FCC and CE tested, I'm not so bothered by a handheld.

Much of this testing it just to determine if the device causes radio and TV interference.