Talk About GTA


Do I have a solution? Of course not. But if a solution exists it most definitely does not involve vilifying half the population. If half the population don't pay taxes, blaming them for it absolutely will not solve the problem and (according to certain studies) may in fact make the problem worse, vis a vis "why should I work when I can get money on welfare". If you squeeze a stone and no water comes out, do you blame the stone?
The wealthy greedy pigs who run America do blame the stone.  the Wall Street fat cats who crashed our economy and caused great hurt for everyone else...got away with it scott-free...not a single one of them were jailed for their risky criminal behavior.  But if I'm a junkie that holds up a 7-Eleven for $50 and a Mars Bar...you'll see me go up the river for 20 years.  Welcome to America...yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!!
 
@Rohezal - I agree with you about capitalism.

I'm now a small business owner...and I can see things from a perspective I never did before.  But damn, I suffered way too long for too many years, I will never forget what I came from, and I'll be damned if I will withhold help from anyone who needs it.  Even if some are abusing it, and even if I keep less of my money because of it.

I sleep with myself better at night having generous thoughts...than greedy thoughts.

Not sure how the greedy sleep with themselves...I couldn't do it.
 
Yes everyone should pay tax no matter what they make.

The problem in this country is not the deficit , it's the state of mind of people.  

Paying tax and contributing to the country develops self worth and pride. You feel like it's "your country", because you are contributing to a better country. 
No, I do not feel this, just because I am forced to pay LOTS of € from my very tiny income (from which other people here could not live due to their standards and habits)

to corrupt politians (I always vote but not for anyone who has proven his corruption yet in any way)

and international Banks that suck Billions over Billions out of this country for nearly 70years now and still call it interest.

Many people here had to work for nothing/nada/niente for years (including me) for the hope of getting a job in these companys,

although these jobs did not even exist anymore in a paid form and still have to pay lots of stuff including taxes like the Mwst./Vat

(no way to think about a flat this way, either you have a familily or some other place to stay, or you may be fucked)

and there is no real social care if you are under 25, that is why so many young people that have terrible families end on the streets.

I am not happy to pay any tax at all to politians that screw up everything and get rich for it,

I would rather pay as much as I could spare directly to schools, institutes, universities, hospitals, etc...
 
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Taxes being misspent does not mean people shouldn't pay them, it means the budget needs seriously reorganising
 
Paying tax and contributing to the country develops self worth and pride. You feel like it's "your country", because you are contributing to a better country.
Like I said before, you can't regulate pride. You can't force someone to care about something. You can't control a person's sense of worth in the society they belong. You feel that way and that is good for you but you can't say "everyone should feel this way" and expect it to ever be used as a beacon for progress because, quite honestly, there are many people that do not and cannot feel that way. Yes, everyone should pay taxes, but there are just too many factors involved to make such blanket statements.*edit* sorry, I accidentally an entire sentence there ;)

It's the same thing as having a handicapped sibling still do chores or in some other way help the household. Makes them feel better about themselves and they are happier for helping.
Sometimes it makes them feel better about themselves, sometimes it doesn't, you can't dictate how they will feel about a situation. Besides which, the chores are presumably chosen so as not to be in excess of what the handicapped child can do. That is the crux of my argument: everyone should pay taxes in accordance with what they can reasonably be expected to do. I do not believe that families making 30K per year can consistentently be able to afford to pay any taxes across the board. There are some people in some places that can definitely scrimp and save and build themselves up, but there are also places where 30K is literally not enough (and more especially towards the average of 17K) to maintain reasonable living conditions. What would you have these people do? Tax them $1 just so that they can "feel included"? It doesn't work that way.I fully agree that everyone should pay taxes relative to what they can afford. Where we disagree is that I believe there exists some plateau where what a family can afford is unfortunately $0. That plateau will never go away, you just need to get more people above it. Currently about 47% of the population is below it. Fix that.
 
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I am not going to argue what people should or shouldn't feel . But it is a fact that people feel better about themselves when they are a helpful contributing member of a family or a society.
 
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I am not going to argue what people should or shouldn't feel .
But it is a fact that people feel better about themselves when they are a helpful contributing member of a family or a society.
These two sentences are necessarily at odds. You say you won't argue about how people should feel and then present an argument that people feel better about themselves when they are contributing. You need to resolve this conflict before we can have any chance of meaningful discussion: either drop the "feeling like a contributing member of society" argument entirely or present your case that the feeling is universal and would outweigh the costs.
 
At this point you are disagreeing with everything I say just to disagree.

Its to nice a day to argue with someone on the Internet .

I am going to enjoy the day with my family. 

No hard feelings , have fun discussing this with others :)
 
At this point you are disagreeing with everything I say just to disagree.
I never disagree just to disagree. If I disagree it's because I think you're wrong, and I think you're wrong either because you are wrong or I am wrong about you being wrong. You can be wrong, I don't care, it's when I'm wrong that I can't stand, and there's a chance you're trying to say something profound here and just getting caught up in logical twists.If you genuinely believe that everyone will feel happy about being taxed and contributing to society (not "should feel", definitely will feel) then I have not misunderstood what you're saying. I'm really hoping I'm wrong and that you're trying to say something else.
 
But it is a fact that people feel better about themselves when they are a helpful contributing member of a family or a society.
How do people best "contribute toward society?", by paying taxes or by performing voluntary exchanges like providing a service in exchange for something else?


"Voluntaryism, or voluntarism, is generally considered to be the philosophy which holds that all forms of human association should be voluntary.[1]


The principle most frequently used to support voluntaryism is the non-aggression principle.


Many voluntaryists base their thinking on the ideas of voluntaryist philosophers Murray Rothbard and Robert LeFevre..."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism
 
I am not going to argue what people should or shouldn't feel . But it is a fact that people feel better about themselves when they are a helpful contributing member of a family or a society.
What you fail to understand is that the problem is systemic.

The ghetto is lethal.

The lower socioeconomic strata tends to occupy places that suck your soul and spirit right out of you.  It breeds hopelessness, despair, desperation.  and from where they are, they see two avenues of escape.  Become a big badass drug kingpin (they see his gold chains and bling and his ride and so on) or get into the NBA.

Sadly many of these kids will not get into the NBA and I do not advocate the drug kingpin route.

Poor underperfoming schools often do not equip these kids with the tools they need to lift themselves out of the horrible situation they are in.

Opportunbities thus do not present themselves to these young people...because, even if they did...they do not have the tools to take advantage of those opportunities..

There isn't an easy answer, so stop pretending there is.

Oh, and WiardStan is NOT arguing with you just to argue.  YOU, Hailrazer...are trying to have it both ways, and he is correctly pointing out that you can't do that.  You're arguing for both sides.  A debate doesn't work that way.

You're blowing hot and cold out the same mouth.
 
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"Tax them $1 just so that they can "feel included"? It doesn't work that way."

Did the 17K example for germany. There would be 6% taxes on the income. But you get money per child (think it was 150€ per child). So it would be:

Monthly: 1.450,00

After all Taxes / Health Care etc: 1070

+ 300 for 2 childs= 1370€.

The 1370 is money that can be spended. There is no need for healthcare and other things, since it allready included. It the rent for the flat is high some money is given be the state to  pay the rent. When the rent costs 570€, everyone can spend 200€. Not enough for a car but for enough food, cloth etc.
 
Germany still has a minimum tax level: if you make less than 8000EUR (16000 in a household if you are married) then you pay no taxes. Your argument is fundamentally flawed in several ways, but that's the prominent one.
 
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Germany still has a minimum tax level: if you make less than 8000EUR (16000 in a household if you are married) then you pay no taxes. Your argument is fundamentally flawed in several ways, but that's the prominent one.
I thought we talked about how much tax can a 17K family spend. I was assuming that one partner earns the money. A 16K family doesn't pay taxes but for social security (health care, retirement etc). If you want to pay nothing, you have to earn less then 400€ per month (i believe it was changed to 450€ in january).
 
Germany still has a minimum tax level: if you make less than 8000EUR (16000 in a household if you are married) then you pay no taxes. Your argument is fundamentally flawed in several ways, but that's the prominent one.
No _income_ taxes perhaps. But still 20pct VAT and 300pct Gasoline tax and automobile tax, if you have one.
 
I thought we talked about how much tax can a 17K family spend.
No, this entire time I've been trying to counter your universal claim that "everyone needs to pay something" by admitting that I agree everyone SHOULD pay something but accepting that there exists some level below which there are families that quite literally cannot afford to pay anything. I then went on to say that I believe that level to be around 30k but that's just an impression and entirely flexible as new information comes in. This is the crux of what I've been trying to get at, you continue to insist that everyone pay something and then used an example from a country with a similar tax platform where there are people who do not pay income tax, which didn't make any sense. Three times I pointed out the flaw in your assertion and asked to make sure that that is really what you were talking about and you always came back to basically saying "yes, everyone needs to pay taxes because contributing makes you feel good".So again: do you believe, universally, that everyone should pay something regardless of their situation because it will make them "feel good" about their country or whatever, and do you have any evidence to support this claim, and suggestions on how to handle the costs of this policy?
 
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