Talk About GTA

[hailrazer]

I have and would work before I'll accept welfare.

You can't regulate pride. What you find unacceptable others have no problem with and there is nothing you can do about that. Would you eliminate the welfare program entirely? There are people that legitimately need it: for every person cheating the system, there are many more that are genuinely in a bad place and just need a little help. Would you increase the regulation on who can get assistance? I've lost the study, but when I read it in 2008 it was found that it would cost more to do this than it would to just let the people have the money. It's a losing battle. You can't stop people from trying to take advantage of a system designed to help people, all you can do is make it so that they have incentive to get off the system: better wages, better health care, better living in general.

I agree 100%. I don't have the solution.  I don't know if there is one.  

 

[Franko]

I'm just glad that we can all talk and agree or usually disagree like now.  It's what makes this Forum great.  This great German Forum that put out an amazing product.  What were we arguing about again?

 

[hailrazer]

And yet the rich pay over 70% of the total taxes in the US.  You want them to pay it all ?  

The top 1% makes over 10 million per year each. Let's just round to the low end at 10 million. About 150 million eligible workers in the USA, 1% is 1.5 million people making more than 10 million dollars. They accounted for 33% of the taxes collected last year. 1.4 trillion income tax over 1.5 million people is just under 1 million dollars. If the top 1% paid 10% of their income to taxes not a single one of the lower 99% would have to pay anything to income tax. Instead, they accounted for 33%. They paid 3.33% of their income to taxes last year. How much do you pay in taxes this year? Was it more than 10%? I paid 30% (of course I'm a Canadian, our taxes are different, but I can't imagine they'd be that different)
So I guess while I cannot say that I *want* the rich to pay 100% of the taxes, I can't imagine a single logical reason someone could give that they shouldn't. Imagine if the top 1% paid the same 30% taxes that those around the 50% earnings range pay. 4.5 trillion dollars. Deficit eliminated with 3 trillion to spare.

47$ didn't pay a penny, not 1%

That's not fair.  We all should pay a %. 

It's far to simplistic to say that the rich should pay everything because they make more.  If everyone paid something the deficit is gone. 

See there's always 2 sides to a story. 

Let me guess, you joined the 47 percenters who voted for Romney, didn't you?

Glad you guys didn't win.

Conditions would be even WORSE...for the working classes here if you guys got your way about it.

fortunately for me...and I do mean fortunately...because I truly did luck into the position I now enjoy...I will never have to participate in the game Corporate America plays anymore.

Never again will I have to work more and more and more...and harder and harder...only to make ever-less money.

Corporate america is a death-trap hell that, unfortunately, most Americans must exist in.

As a small business owner, I get to exist outside of that hell.

I'd slit my wrists before I'd go back to Corporate America.

Owning your own business is so much better.

I work more hours, longer and harder than I ever have in my life...but I would not trade it for the world...because I...and not THE MAN...reap the rewards of my labors.

And there you go.

It always turns to a biased political opinion doesn't it.

No I didn't vote for Romney. He didn't have the solution. No-one does unfortunately.

You assume my views are for corporate america or the rich, nope far from it.  People getting rich off others pain/suffering sickens me.

But I can look at both sides. And welfare has made things worse not better. 

There is no black and white, no side has the answers. The answers lie in between both views IMO. 

 

[Franko]

"Give this man a cigar...he is the one with the right answer!"

WizardStan is Monica Lewinski?!?!?     Wellll... hellloooo.    

 

[WizardStan]

47$ didn't pay a penny, not 1%

That's not fair.  We all should pay a %. 

It's far to simplistic to say that the rich should pay everything because they make more.  If everyone paid something the deficit is gone. 

See there's always 2 sides to a story.

Wait wait wait. Wait. What? What are you talking about? The bottom 47% make less than 30K per year. Let's round that up to every one of them making 30K per year. 70 million workers * 30K = 2.115 trillion dollars. 10% of the top 1%'s income is 4.5 trillion. The bottom 47% would have to pay 212% of their annual income to account for just 10% of the top 1%'s income. In what world do you consider that fair? That isn't "the other side to a coin", that is outright IMPOSSIBLE.edit. Dangit, my math is fail. Be right back...

edit edit, ok fixed it. Fortunately while I was writing wrong numbers my calculator was keeping proper track, so it all worked out right in the end. Carry on.

 

[hailrazer]

I have and would work before I'll accept welfare.


It's called Pride. I'm a man and I will take care of my family, I WILL NOT rely on anyone or any government to take care of me and my family.


Unless someone is handicapped in some way, or has extenuating circumstances, they should feel the same. Seems like a lot of people don't feel this way anymore.

you'd take $800 - which is not enough to support your family...and work...


rather than take $1400 from Uncle Sam and not work?


Please...I seriously doubt it.


The problem is that work does not pay. For many people at that level, work simply does not pay.


If the situation were such that work paid more than welfare does...these people would proabably choose to work.

I have before and I would again.


Not enough to support my family?


Ha, I didn't have cable, no cell phone, no new car.


Had a garden, grew food. Did odd jobs whenever I could to make a little more.


But I went to sleep happy , I slept good. I had provided for my family, not someone else.


Pride, and self worth. Wish it meant something to more people.


And that last line you said is the point. Welfare has not helped but made the situation much worse. For those who really need it and for those who really don't need it.

I sincerely doubt your words.

You have no right to call me a liar. I do not lie , and I never will lie.


You have just lost all respect from me.

47$ didn't pay a penny, not 1%


That's not fair. We all should pay a %.


It's far to simplistic to say that the rich should pay everything because they make more. If everyone paid something the deficit is gone.


See there's always 2 sides to a story.

Wait wait wait. Wait. What? What are you talking about? The bottom 47% make less than 30K per year. Let's round that up to every one of them making 30K per year. 7 million workers * 30K = 2.115 trillion dollars. 10% of the top 1%'s income is 4.5 trillion. The bottom 47% would have to pay 212% of their annual income to account for just 10% of the top 1%'s income. In what world do you consider that fair? That isn't "the other side to a coin", that is outright IMPOSSIBLE.

What are you even quoting. I said if everyone pays something the deficit would be gone. I never said the bottom 47% would pay it all, or that the % would be even across the board.


You can't just take something I say and change it to what you want.

 

[Franko]

Don't worry, Johnny.  When you grow up you'll invent a great product and employ a lot of people and the government will take over half, because you make too much.  The more you make, the more that they'll take..."Gee Dad, where is the motivation?"  "I'm not sure...hey, you can always eat Government cheese for free and stay in our basement and smoke pot all day with your friends!"   "Jeepers!  You're the bestest, Dad!"

 

[hailrazer]

LOL, I think I know Johnny and his dad. 

 

[WizardStan]

You can't just take something I say and change it to what you want.

I quoted your "two coins" thing. Yes, at the over view it seems like "fair" would be for taxes to be paid by everyone, but the numbers don't lie: 10% of the lower 47% is potatoes, it doesn't even come close to covering the deficit. Do you honestly think it is fair for a family barely making 30K per year to have to then pay 3K? Not in a "I would do it so they should too" righteous way, actually think about how hard it would be for a family to live AND PROSPER on 30K per year, and then be asked to give some of that to the government simply because "everyone has to pay something". Is that fair? They genuinely NEED that 30K. Suppose every penny is spent on living and trying to improve themselves. On the other hand, you've got the exceedingly wealthy that could wipe out the deficit 3 times over with the money they are not spending, simply depositing into banks. Are these two situations in any way balanced?When someone uses the "two sides to every coin" analogy, it is usually because the two sides are equal and opposite. These are most definitely not equal and not necessarily opposite. I fully agree, the bottom 47% should pay their fair share of taxes. I also fully believe that, at 30K, their "fair share" is 0 because they cannot consistently afford anything more. Yes, there are some people that are scraping by (edit: and could additionally afford to pay taxes), but tax system doesn't work person by person: if there is even one family that is barely surviving on 30K then fairness dictates that it be nothing. Everyone should pay taxes. Everyone should also be making enough money that they can AFFORD to pay taxes.

 

[Franko]

It should be a flat rate - 10% across the board.  FOR EVERYONE.  No discussion...where is DREDD to uphold the law?  Oh yeah...he's Australian...

 

[Franko]

The problem is...well, there are multiple problems here, but we're funding two wars, we have military personel allover the globe...we're basically printing money at this point and borrowing from the Chinese.  I guess they can't collect if we default on the loans, but I don't like this...we're throwing money domestically at people and programs to make them happy - it's ridiculous.  WHAT are we producing as a nation except for whiny self-indulgent losers?  Me included...Just wanted to throw myself into that proverbial bonfire...

 

[Franko]

I just want you guys to know that you've really bummed me out...and made me think that America might be Rome 2.0

I sincerely hope not, and I'll keep working and towing my end down here, but wow...

Edit 1:  I'm just kidding - you couldn't keep me down if you tried.  I am who I am, and I am where I want to be, doing what I want to do.  I'm happy.

 

[WizardStan]

Do I have a solution? Of course not. But if a solution exists it most definitely does not involve vilifying half the population. If half the population don't pay taxes, blaming them for it absolutely will not solve the problem and (according to certain studies) may in fact make the problem worse, vis a vis "why should I work when I can get money on welfare". If you squeeze a stone and no water comes out, do you blame the stone?

 

[Franko]

Do I have a solution? Of course not. But if a solution exists it most definitely does not involve vilifying half the population. If half the population don't pay taxes, blaming them for it absolutely will not solve the problem and (according to certain studies) may in fact make the problem worse, vis a vis "why should I work when I can get money on welfare". If you squeeze a stone and no water comes out, do you blame the stone?

I don't usually deal with figures unless they're beautiful women, or I'm making love to them upon piles of cash...but who's vilifying half of the population?  Not me.  I get that people are out of work.  If people keep losing their jobs then I'm next and so are you and so on and so on...


I'm talking about sustainable growth and it looks like from a business owners perspective that we're trying to do just that - get blood from a stone.  Keep taxing and giving the money away.  I have more descriptive adjectives for the so called deserving.  Storm the castles and make your protests.  Burn it all to the ground in your angry, disjointed mayhem.  The Middle class is the working class for the most part.  The poor collect food stamps.  Guess what?  I was homeless...for 2 weeks.  Know what I did?  I got a F-ing job.  I went upwards.  Lateral moves don't work.  You have to better yourself, unless you're a leach upon society which MILLIONS are...


Hailrazer isn't kidding.

 

[Franko]

Okay, I know that inevitably someone will correct me and show me statistics that say that if you make $0-$20,000...you're "poor".

Hey.....I saved a lot of that money as a "poor" person and bought the business.  You just have to have some initiative or dream...a scope of vision...something.  Maybe you weren't the hottest cheerleader, so you got into porn or you weren't the smartest guy, so you went into porn....the point is that...wait, what was the point again?  Oh yeah, why were 80's actors so hairy?

 

[Franko]

How do I have 400 posts and yet only have one warning point?

 

[rohezal]

Had a garden, grew food. Did odd jobs whenever I could to make a little more.

So you are taking each job, doesn't matter how bad they payment is, when you need money to feed your family? Sounds at first reasonable, but if you think about it, you lower the wages for everyone else. Hey look, this guy is doing it for the half amount of money. Why should I pay a fair wage? This is why worker unions are important and social security. Because if people are hungry (and don't have a farm) they take every job they can get at every wage.

Tax discussion

Why does the top 1% has 40% of the nations wealth? And if you have higher taxes the more you earn, it is a bit frustrating. By you still earn more money. In germany you could say, if you get 100€ more wage, you get 50€ more taxes. This sounds bad, but you still get 50€ more.

Each and every one of us needs to wake up in the morning and look ourselves in the mirror and say, that we're doing our part for ourselves and our families and our communities and it spreads outwards.

A good attitude is a good thing. But it is a system problem. We don't live in the 1500 where you can work harder on the fields to feet your village. This is an industrialized economy where a lot of things come together. With better machines 10% of the workers can do 200% of the work. This has cost a lot of weavers their jobs in 1850. Lots of people had no job and working harder, did not help since their were enough work for all. Then unions came and they reduced the working time from 16 to 8 hours and forbid child work.

Problem solved. But not by "doing our part for ourselves", but by understanding the economy system and changing some rules. And everything worked out and life was better then before.

Not all personal problems can be solved this way, for some people motivation is a problem. But most problems are structural ones. As far as I know the college fees at good colleges are very high in America. And you can't get money from state when you are visiting the college. So kumaki could not get a high paid job through good education. Some countries in Europe pay students, other countries give students from poor families some kind of "credit" ( interest rate = 0% and you only have to pay the half of the money back). A lot of countries have college fees. Germany had some by decided it was a stupid idea and now we don't have them anymore.

I think capitalism doesn't work in long term and should be replaced by a more productive, eco-friendly and accurate system, but this is a different story.

 

[hailrazer]

You can't just take something I say and change it to what you want.

I quoted your "two coins" thing. Yes, at the over view it seems like "fair" would be for taxes to be paid by everyone, but the numbers don't lie: 10% of the lower 47% is potatoes, it doesn't even come close to covering the deficit. Do you honestly think it is fair for a family barely making 30K per year to have to then pay 3K? Not in a "I would do it so they should too" righteous way, actually think about how hard it would be for a family to live AND PROSPER on 30K per year, and then be asked to give some of that to the government simply because "everyone has to pay something". Is that fair? They genuinely NEED that 30K. Suppose every penny is spent on living and trying to improve themselves. On the other hand, you've got the exceedingly wealthy that could wipe out the deficit 3 times over with the money they are not spending, simply depositing into banks. Are these two situations in any way balanced?
When someone uses the "two sides to every coin" analogy, it is usually because the two sides are equal and opposite. These are most definitely not equal and not necessarily opposite. I fully agree, the bottom 47% should pay their fair share of taxes. I also fully believe that, at 30K, their "fair share" is 0 because they cannot consistently afford anything more. Yes, there are some people that are scraping by (edit: and could additionally afford to pay taxes), but tax system doesn't work person by person: if there is even one family that is barely surviving on 30K then fairness dictates that it be nothing. Everyone should pay taxes. Everyone should also be making enough money that they can AFFORD to pay taxes.

Yes everyone should pay tax no matter what they make.

The problem in this country is not the deficit , it's the state of mind of people.  

Paying tax and contributing to the country develops self worth and pride. You feel like it's "your country", because you are contributing to a better country. 

It's the same thing as having a handicapped sibling still do chores or in some other way help the household. Makes them feel better about themselves and they are happier for helping.

 

[Kumaki]

I have and would work before I'll accept welfare.

It's called Pride.  I'm a man and I will take care of my family, I WILL NOT rely on anyone or any government to take care of me and my family.

Unless someone is handicapped in some way, or has extenuating circumstances, they should feel the same. Seems like a lot of people don't feel this way anymore.

A lot of people have had their Pride and Self-Esteem and everything else sucked out of them by  the deathtrap that is Corporate America.

Again, take me for example.  I was on diasability for a couple years when I first moved to PA.

First, a company lied to me about my salary, and for the first time in my life I quit without another job lined up...longer story, I won't go into details.  But they promised a certain wage and then failed to deliver on their promise.

THEN...Hurricane Katrina.

I was freaking ruined.

I had lost just about everything I had in the world.

I was forced to move back home to PA to Mommy...a failure at life at age 34.

Well, I can tell you from experience, buddy...this takes a severe toll on your pride.  When you lose your independence, your livelihood, your entire sense of self-worth...through circumstances not of your own making...let me tell you it does a number on you.

I was a basket case so bad I could barely get dressed in the morning anymore.  I didn't give a damn about me, or anyone or anything else, either.

Fortunately for me...I had pepole, like my mom...who believed in me when I didn't even believe in me.

They were patient with me, and they helped me to build myself back up.

without their help I would have been dead, in prison, or living in a cardboard box somewhere.

Without them...I never would have been able to grab the opportunity when it came my way.

Many people do not have the support system I was fortunate enough to have.

Why must you judge people as bums...just because they got crushed by the hammer of life?

Life in america is NIOT easy.  80 percent of us stand one or two paychecks from bankruptcy, at the mercy of our employers and creditors...and oh so easy to utterly destroy and crush.

It doesn't have to be this way and it shouldn't be this way.

But the greedy and wealthy among us make sure it stays that way, because it makes us schmucks easier to control.

Freedom, my ass.

Freedom to starve, maybe.

Any person who is dependent upon another person for their survival...is, by definition, not free.

 

[Kumaki]

You can't just take something I say and change it to what you want.

I quoted your "two coins" thing. Yes, at the over view it seems like "fair" would be for taxes to be paid by everyone, but the numbers don't lie: 10% of the lower 47% is potatoes, it doesn't even come close to covering the deficit. Do you honestly think it is fair for a family barely making 30K per year to have to then pay 3K? Not in a "I would do it so they should too" righteous way, actually think about how hard it would be for a family to live AND PROSPER on 30K per year, and then be asked to give some of that to the government simply because "everyone has to pay something". Is that fair? They genuinely NEED that 30K. Suppose every penny is spent on living and trying to improve themselves. On the other hand, you've got the exceedingly wealthy that could wipe out the deficit 3 times over with the money they are not spending, simply depositing into banks. Are these two situations in any way balanced?
When someone uses the "two sides to every coin" analogy, it is usually because the two sides are equal and opposite. These are most definitely not equal and not necessarily opposite. I fully agree, the bottom 47% should pay their fair share of taxes. I also fully believe that, at 30K, their "fair share" is 0 because they cannot consistently afford anything more. Yes, there are some people that are scraping by (edit: and could additionally afford to pay taxes), but tax system doesn't work person by person: if there is even one family that is barely surviving on 30K then fairness dictates that it be nothing. Everyone should pay taxes. Everyone should also be making enough money that they can AFFORD to pay taxes.

WiardStan for President, 2016!!!

Woooot!!

Damn, we aqgree, completely, in our views, Wizard...I like you.

The problem is...well, there are multiple problems here, but we're funding two wars, we have military personel allover the globe...we're basically printing money at this point and borrowing from the Chinese.  I guess they can't collect if we default on the loans, but I don't like this...we're throwing money domestically at people and programs to make them happy - it's ridiculous.  WHAT are we producing as a nation except for whiny self-indulgent losers?  Me included...Just wanted to throw myself into that proverbial bonfire...

I'd rather throw money at PEOPLE...than the freaking Petagon!