Starting an x86 handheld project

[Jonttu]

First of all, I apologize if this is the wrong forum to even introduce an idea like this at. Not to say I am new to the Pandora's scene or anything, but hopefully this isn't viewed as a threat or competition to the Pandora in sorts is my gist.

So I have been around the portable scene for a while. I originally started on Howards phone forum, XDA and some other UMPC forums (Micropctalk for one). I've also been around the Pandora scene since it's early days on the gp forums. I have to say I love my Pandora through and through. I use it for music, some retro gaming and remote desktoping just about every day. I 'm really glad to have sat it out through til the end. The Pandora does certain things very well and as a general device it's very capable for it specs. However there are certain things I'd wish to do on a portable form factor that I won't say the Pandora does poorly but rather the Pandora was never intended for such tasks anyway. One thing I would like is a HD portable media playback device. Obviously I know that there are phones and other general media devices that do full HD out, but I really want a device that I can download movies from my home server from and easily appropriate them to folders. Another thing I want is x86 compatibility. I know at the moment it may seem as if the architecture is struggling, but I'm actually fairly certain that Intel and others will continue optimizing the power efficiency and close the margin between ARM and x86 fairly soon. I know it can be argued that there are plenty of alternative softwares that can be used on ARM, but it would be nice to able to take a portable form factor and be able to hook it up to a monitor or TV and use it for productivity as well. I know there are many of you out there that have professions, hobbies, and interest for an x86 device that can use the software that we need, do the things we want and where we want them. I know that the majority of people don't have an actual need for an x86 and the idea of using one might seem inefficient or rather pointless. Though it might seem inefficient, there currently isn't much of a pocketable device out there that can handle heavy productivity. 

I actually own a Sony ux380n and it's been very reliable for years. It do most of things I need it to do, but it is slightly lacking in the power I'm looking for. So I've really been doing research on portable x86 solutions. Other than mine, there really aren't any alternatives to what I need. So I thought that maybe I could make my own.

I've spent probably the last month or so just looking for the best parts to put in it. Best parts is to say having a balance of size and power. 
I have narrowed down that the motherboard I will use is Via's new quadcore e SoC. Specifically the EPIA-P910.

The specs list out as follows:
 

VIA EPIA-P910-10 SPECIFICATIONS Processor 1.0GHz VIA QuadCore E Chipset VIA VX11H Media System Processor System Memory

1 x DDR3 800/1066/1333 SODIMM socket

Up to 8GB memory size

VGA

Integrated VIA Chromotion 5.0 DX11 3D/2D graphics with VC1, MPEG-2, WMV9, and H.264 decoding acceleration

Expansion Slots PCI Express via proprietary connector Onboard IDE None Onboard Serial ATA 2 SATA connectors Onboard USB 6 USB 2.0
2 USB 3.0 Onboard LAN 1 x VIA VT6130 PCIe Gigabit Ethernet controller Onboard Audio VIA VT2021 High Definition Audio Codec Back Panel I/O

1 x Mini-HDMI port
1 x VGA port
1 x GigaLAN port
2 x USB 3.0 ports

Onboard I/O Connectors 2 SATA connectors
1 30-pin I/O extender ( KB/MS,LPC,GPIO, SM Bus)
1 30-pin I/O extender ( Line-in/Line-out/Mic-in/SPDIF-out, USB 2.0 x 3, F-panel)
1 LVDS connector (18/24-bit, single-channel)
1 LVDS inverter
1 Fan pin header
1 SPI connector
1 SATA power connector
1 +12 V DC-in power connector BIOS AMI Aptio UEFI
4Mbit BIOS ROM System Monitoring & Management Wake-on LAN, Keyboard Power-on, Timer Power-on, System power management, AC power failure recovery
Watch Dog Timer Operating Temperature 0°C ~ 60°C Operating Humidity 0% ~ 95% (relative humidity; non-condensing) Form Factor Pico-ITX (10 x 7.2 cm) Includes 1 x DC power cable
1 x SATA cable
1 x SATA power cable
 

Now initially those who may be concerned about Via's performance, rest assured that even Via's Nano X2 Eden (dualcore) wiped the floors with atom equivalents. I would say it is up there with AMD's APUs in performance. Now the power draw is rather high, which is the only rather unfortunate part. Now I've done some research on batteries and Imagine something of this size on a portable scale can be powered for up to 4-5 hours. I know that may not seem very long, but that's performance to usage compromise you have to make. I have found a few LCD's that would work fine with LVDS on the board. With the size contraints of the heatsink I imagine it would be same thickness as the Pandora or slightly thicker. I have been working on a cad model of the case as well as waiting on my board to ship to try this out. Eventually I will work on the screen and casing.

What I came here to ask is if anyone else would be interested in helping develop this system. I find that through collaboration usually the best ideas prevail. Also if there are any of you that would like a system like this themselves and have the capability of putting one together. Now I'm not experienced with things like this, but I have done my fair share of diy projects over the years. Another reason I brought this up here is that if there are others that want to do this, ordering parts in bulk quite obviously saves a little money. Now I'm not sure if there are 100s here that would need a device like this, but if there are at least 10, then there is money to be saved. SO I'm sorry for such a long post, but let me know what you guys think.   

 

[ekianjo]

Does the harware you describe need a fan ? If yes your project is unlikely to be very successful.


And a heatsink is not a magic wand. The heat has to go SOMEWHERE in the end.

 

[klapse]

Would it run Linux, Windows 7? What is the driver support like?

 

[Nintendo]

Kickstart this!

 

[ghostpatch]

nice project but isn't the board too big/high for a handheld ? The single price is 354$, 25 and more is 343.40$ and thats just for the board you'd need a custom case, controlles, a screen etc.

klapse already mentioned the driver aspect.

If you want to play HD or even full HD, just wait for the Pandora2

edit:

You could pobably build a cool portable server (+ battery) with it. That'd be a cool project too ; )

 

[Jonttu]

Well the board does come with a heatsink with a fan on it. I was on the support forum for the device and the temps were near 48-54 on max load in diverse ambient situations (it's threshold is 60). I believe it can easily manage passive airflow with a slight undervolt. These new boards don't actually get very hot. The M920 (larger M-ITX version) version actually uses a passive airflow system. I might try to reduce the size of heatsink or I might switch it for a more efficient one. Unfortunately, the heatsinks that EPIA supplies are a little poor. Also the driver support for Linux has drastically changed since the Nano X2 came out. It's not the best obviously, but the marjority of the drivers work perfectly.

Edit: ^ Yeah I might completely avoid actually making it a complete handheld. Like I said I haven't gotten the device yet which might make this whole post null as it is lol. I will try however, I don't think it will be too bulky after I shave it a little. You have to understand it looks very bulky from an overview, but the actual board is only 3.9"x2.9". Meaning the heatsink itself is only about an inch in thickness.

I didn't think about the case fabrication though, as I have a friend of mine who has a decent printer : /

 

[ingoreis]

I recommend you this one:

 

[notaz]

I know it can be argued that there are plenty of alternative softwares that can be used on ARM, but it would benice to able to take a portable form factor and be able to hook it up to a monitor or TV and use it for productivity as well. I know there are many of you out there that have professions, hobbies, and interest for an x86 device that can use the software that we need, do the things we want and where we want them.

I suppose what's you are really saying here is that you want windows? Basically everything that runs on Linux x86 can be ran on ARM too, of course there is some x86-only software but it's irrelevant to me (except wine but that goes to running-windows category really).

 

[Jonttu]

Well kind of, I wouldn't mind Linux either. Like you said there are of course certain Linux softwares that are x86 reliant as well. Though Gimp is a great alternative to PS, I have so many custom filters, brushsets, and plugins that it makes PS a necessity. Also the amount of games that can be played on this board makes me salivate. 

 

[ekianjo]

Well kind of, I wouldn't mind Linux either. Like you said there are of course certain Linux softwares that are x86 reliant as well. Though Gimp is a great alternative to PS, I have so many custom filters, brushsets, and plugins that it makes PS a necessity. Also the amount of games that can be played on this board makes me salivate. 

Running windows is crap, though I only use windows for gaming and I would not imagine using it anymore for anything else.

 

[TrashyMG]

^ I don't even use Windows for gaming anymore..

 

[FaeMinx]

I'm very interested in how this turns out...

but for myself, i don't think I want to look at x86 in a hand-held form factor for a few more years at least.

 

[kamui_kun]

I can't help you on this project, but I will definitively buy it if you manage to make a perfect x86 Pandora clone

BTW, do you know about Viliv ? I have a Viliv S5 which is about the size of a Pandora, connected with an iControlPad (waiting for the iCP2), it is quite usable, 1.33GHZ, 32GB SSD, 1GB RAM, HD playback, 5 hours battery ect.

I also have an N5 for sale, which is the same as the S5 but with a build in keyboard and optical mouse, if you're interested please PM me

 

[Exophase]

VIA's quad core Nanos aren't new, they're 2 years old now.. and they weren't great when they were released. Performance is good vs Atoms but the power consumption is so much higher that it's questionable if it's even Atoms you should be comparing it with.

The quad core E series CPU has a TDP of 27W @ 1.2GHz. It doesn't even integrate a memory controller, much less GPU, so you have to include at least another few watts for that and then everything else like memory and power regulation. Speaking of which, I can't even find what kind of power this board takes, but you'll have to convert a battery's output to it externally costing you more efficiency.

I recommend you this one:

That's just a CPU + GPU module, it needs to be plugged into a motherboard.. it's also ancient by modern standards..

 

[FaeMinx]

^  ^_^

Like I said... give x86 a few more years to have a chance at being viable in the hand-held market.

...Still interested to see what you achieve with this project...

 

[pmprog]

I can't help you on this project, but I will definitively buy it if you manage to make a perfect x86 Pandora clone

BTW, do you know about Viliv ? I have a Viliv S5 which is about the size of a Pandora, connected with an iControlPad (waiting for the iCP2), it is quite usable, 1.33GHZ, 32GB SSD, 1GB RAM, HD playback, 5 hours battery ect.

I also have an N5 for sale, which is the same as the S5 but with a build in keyboard and optical mouse, if you're interested please PM me

What do you make of the Villiv units? Are they nice to use? what's the keyboard like on the N5?

 

[Grench]

I know it can be argued that there are plenty of alternative softwares that can be used on ARM, but it would benice to able to take a portable form factor and be able to hook it up to a monitor or TV and use it for productivity as well. I know there are many of you out there that have professions, hobbies, and interest for an x86 device that can use the software that we need, do the things we want and where we want them.

I suppose what's you are really saying here is that you want windows? Basically everything that runs on Linux x86 can be ran on ARM too, of course there is some x86-only software but it's irrelevant to me (except wine but that goes to running-windows category really).

There are a couple of programs (games) that are very important to me that will run on X86 Linux but not on ARM.  No intrinsic reason they couldn't - but they are not open source and have not been released for our platform.

Steam - both under WINE and now it's Linux versions.

Neverwinter Nights - Native X86 Linux compiled version.

Other than those two, though, ARM works pretty well for me.

Steam for ARM Linux - wow they should do that.  Steam for Linux X86 works very nicely - and the thought of playing HalfLife in OpenGL on a Pandora 2 is very cool.

Neverwinter Nights - The native X86 Linux compiled client and world hosts work perfectly.  That said, it's very hard to tell who even owns the IP rights to NWN anymore.  I had a dream around this...

1.  Find out who owns the IP rights and source code for NWN (Atari, Bioware and more get splash screens on it.)

2.  Nail down a price for it - all of it.  Expansion packs included.  Source code included.  Everything.

3.  Run a Kickstarter to buy the IP with the express intent of...

4.  Releasing it into the public domain as open source.

It's a nice dream.  It will <probably> never happen.

 

[kamui_kun]

@pmprog:

I like it a lot I'm selling it because I prefer the S5 + iCP, but the specs are the same. Here's my usages:

- Native Windows games, like old US point & click and up to XP level JP RPGs and visual novels. Didn't try demanding 3D games as I don't care about them, but I've seen videos of Portal running at 10 / 20 fps.

- Dosbox, which is fullspeed in every game, including Lands of Lore 2 that is slow as hell on my 1.2 GHZ Pandora.

- All the console and computers emulators available on x86, I use mainly Anex, which is a PC98 emulator that support real time text translation and furigana. There is a good PC98 emu on Pandora but it is slow for demanding games, and of course no text translations on Pandora.

- Windows XP works quite well, very responsive thanks to the SSD, most people use Windows 7 on it though, I personally have installed a Japanese XP SP3, but you can of course install what you want, including Linux.

You can get more infos about the Viliv N5 here : http://www.dynamism.com/notebooks/viliv-n5.shtml

 

[comradekingu]

>Starting an x86 handheld project

let me just stop you right there.

Via has horribad Gnu/linux support unfortunately. Those heatsinks, they do something, of the nature of dissipating 10W, that is a far cry from 0.1W or 100mW. Unless you want this to be a clunker it will have to be docked to a power outlet.

 

[3_bit]

Kickstart this!

MOD KNOWS BEST NOW KICKSTART OR BAN! (JK) But I would DEFINITELY buy one.

I recommend you this one:

Is the GPU bigger than the CPU there?