Software Restore


kev187

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Washington DC
Ok... another question that may have been answered

I am a veteran computer user... mac, pc, & toyed with Linux a few years back.

In all 3 cases of good use, add/remove software, the machine runs best when the OS in cleaned out & re-installed.

So with our Pandora being very computer like with the options of installing programs, surfing the net, ect...

If we get issues with the OS over time, can the Pandora be wiped and restored?

Just thinking...
 
Yes, it can. You can run the OS from SD and keep one as clean as you like or have a back-up SD with a complete clean OS.

It probably also has the option to put the clean firmware on the NAND overwriting the old (however there are people here that know more about these things than me)
 
btw, i waas wondering if theres some sort of bios key lockdown for the system?

i want to keep my panda locked if it ever gets stolen/lost
 
Clean install in no time, you can clone it after you have it exactly how you want it also. Then re-install it or run it from SD card.

edit:
as WizardStan bellow mentions, see quick demo No installation required
 
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kevin J said:
If we get issues with the OS over time, can the Pandora be wiped and restored?
Very little should actually need to be "installed" onto the Pandora. Everything can reside on the SD card. Put in a blank SD card, and all your programs are gone, but you're basically back to a clean system. I believe the intention is that the only thing that should ever write to the NAND is firmware updates.
 
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If you stick to using .pnd files to install most of your programs, you won't experience the slow, inexorable failure of registry creep or its equivalents in the *nix arena. The install scheme is designed to leave no trace in the base operating system. So unless you're planning on using the Pandora as a sub-netbook, you shouldn't have those problems. To be honest, I think this concern is a little unfounded even if you do install software on the NAND. Kruft in the linux filesystem from uninstalled programs really doesn't affect performance that badly -- certainly not like registry creep on a Windows box; I've never had to reinstall a linux system simply because it got bogged down. That said, I will probably make a backup of the firmware just in case something else goes wrong and I'm unable to boot from NAND.

Also, speaking to Na-Noo's point, research the 'dd' command-line tool in *nix. It allows you to make a bit-level copy of a given device. I've never used it to clone an NAND, but I believe this is the preferred method. You can back up your Pandora's firmware to a file on an SD card directly from the Pandora this way, and then restore from a bootable SD card -- no mucking about with a serial connection or specialized flashing software to install on your desktop. Just make sure you've got the syntax right and you don't accidentally wipe the volume you're trying to copy.
 
the operating system is Linux , so you need a password by default, if you want more security then use an encrypted file system on top, although, to be honest, most IT people I speak to think any PC that has physical access can be owned to some extent, though if you use an encrypted file system they might need a few centuries to hack it.
 
While registry creep isn't a problem, dependency hell is. Though if most pandora applications are statically compiled, it shouldn't be a problem.
 
Also, I'm guessing most apps will be run from pnd-files on SD -- its hard to see the future, but thats how I'm picturing it. In a pnd situation, the file is (probably, butdoes not have to be) kept on SD, and all data is written back to SD. Theres no installation per se, so nothign gums up the system.

Naturally, people are free to do as they please and put stuff in NAND or muck with the system, and can reflash if they need or boot from SD. Further, folks might entirely ignore pnds and go with ipkg or other packages which d traditional installs.. but again, can always reflash out of that situation without user data loss.

jeff
 
We'll see if it takes off :) I hope it does, since its pretty neat. Bu theres so many directions people can go in .. if the first few devs don't make pnds, maybe peopel will just go a differen direction and _flop_ :) Maybe we should include some basic pnd files on CD or something, just to make sure people are aware they exist at all.. of ir someone releases a (say) MAME as a bin file, that someone else will package it up as a pnd-fle for the repo to make everyones live easier. (ie: Dev ould just make a bin-file of the executable, and a sh-script that when run copies it into NAND. Or they coudl make a deb or rpm or the like. That'd work, but it would just quickly leed to people filling up their NAND or trashing their filesystem, etc.)

jeff
 
I imagine that, since there are very few programs that you will have to use package management software for, once you have your preferred programs and settings lined up, you can just create a backup image of the NAND. Then, down the line if it goes tits up, the backup will probably restore 90% of your system since so little was changed in terms of package management.

So I guess the only issue is, that it would be helpful if somebody develops a Pandora-specific backup tool that simplifies it for the layman.
 
Lunatic said:
While registry creep isn't a problem, dependency hell is. Though if most pandora applications are statically compiled, it shouldn't be a problem.
Most applications can use the standard set of libraries (SDL, OpenGL, GTK, etc...), or for non-standard libraries, either include a copy of that library in the PND file, or statically link it.
"Include the library? So every application that uses a library will need to include it? That's a lot of copies of a library! What a waste!" (this has been said many times in the past, so I'm countering the argument here and now before it comes up again)
True, but that's only supposed to be for uncommon libraries anyway, you know, like only 2 or 3 applications use it. It'd be a waste to include a library in the NAND for a couple applications you may never even actually use.
If a library becomes popular enough, however, I'm sure they'll start including it in the NAND with a firmware upgrade. Then it can be removed from the PNDs and you no longer have to worry about wasted space.
 
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The Pandora is made to be "unbrickable", which means that you can basically do about anything software-wise and yet will always be able to completely reinstall the system.

Compare it to a mainboard which has a backup BIOS that can be restored in case the BIOS gets broken/corrupted and you get the idea. It's basically the same with the Pandora, you can reinstall the original operating system (or any compatible operating system) at any time via an external (optical) USB drive or an SD card. You can also install an the operating system to an SD card and run it from there if you want to do so. But you likely won't have to do so, because as _Sterling said:

_Sterling said:
If you stick to using .pnd files to install most of your programs, you won't experience the slow, inexorable failure of registry creep or its equivalents in the *nix arena. The install scheme is designed to leave no trace in the base operating system. So unless you're planning on using the Pandora as a sub-netbook, you shouldn't have those problems. To be honest, I think this concern is a little unfounded even if you do install software on the NAND. Kruft in the linux filesystem from uninstalled programs really doesn't affect performance that badly -- certainly not like registry creep on a Windows box; I've never had to reinstall a linux system simply because it got bogged down.

Unlike with Windows machines, I also never had to reinstall any Linux machine because it got bogged down (because so far, that did never happen to me). But just as _Sterling said, making a backup is always a good idea, you never know what may happen.





DroneB Dev said:
btw, i waas wondering if theres some sort of bios key lockdown for the system?
hobbyman II said:
the operating system is Linux , so you need a password by default, if you want more security then use an encrypted file system on top, although, to be honest, most IT people I speak to think any PC that has physical access can be owned to some extent, though if you use an encrypted file system they might need a few centuries to hack it.

A BIOS password is not really increasing security, it's very easy to find a suitable password. Also, it's indeed true that as soon as an attacker gains physical access to your machine, he basically won. To take the BIOS password as an example, with physical access to a machine it would be pretty easy for an attacker to just open up the machine (if it's not physically locked, but that wouldn't really be physical access then) and reset the BIOS so the password is gone.

However, as there's no "100% secure", you can always only rely on making something "secure enough", so that breaking the security measures needs more effort than the potential attacker would be willing to invest. If you had some important corporate documents on your Pandora, an attacker who knew this and would be interested in these documents would likely try quite some things to get them (but that doesn't only include cracking, an extreme case could even include torture to get the password/authentication from you, so at some point you need some REALLY good security policies).

If you want to prevent people from using or selling your Pandora in case they stole it, you're likely out of luck:
  • I assume that people who steal electronic devices to sell them usually steal devices that "mainstream people" like and are able to use, like iPods and other MP3 players, Gameboys and other popular gaming consoles.
  • Furthermore, I assume that people who steal things to use them mostly steal things they already know and would like to have.
  • Additionally, people who would buy a stolen Pandora would only do so if they knew what it is and how to use it.
Thus, I come to the conclusion that chances are high that people who steal a Pandora do exactly know what it is. This would mean that the people who would get your stolen Pandora in the end (may that be the thief himself or one of his "customers") would know how to reinstall the operating system, making it usable again. If you encrypt the flash (if done right) it might not be possible to get your personal data without enormous effort. But making a locked Pandora usable again will always be possible pretty easy due to its unbrickable design and physical access by the attacker.


If anything in my post is unclear to you, don't hesitate to ask. I always try to improve, so feel free to criticize me and point out any unclear passages.
 
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Yep, you can ALWAYS boot via SD or USB. We'll provide a full firmware image and if anything EVER happens to your OS, you can simply put that on an SD card and reflash the NAND.
 
DroneB Dev said:
btw, i waas wondering if theres some sort of bios key lockdown for the system?

i want to keep my panda locked if it ever gets stolen/lost

Don't worry, by the time we receive our units they'll probably be near worthless compared to the latest holographic 4d brain-interfaced iPods, phones, consoles... B)

Ontopic, I'd like to lock my Pandora also. Is there user management in the current Ångström images? I'm sure it couldn't be hard to add, it's Linux after all. (And of course I mean without changing the code for a recompile). :)
 
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WizardStan said:
Lunatic said:
While registry creep isn't a problem, dependency hell is. Though if most pandora applications are statically compiled, it shouldn't be a problem.
Most applications can use the standard set of libraries (SDL, OpenGL, GTK, etc...), or for non-standard libraries, either include a copy of that library in the PND file, or statically link it.
"Include the library? So every application that uses a library will need to include it? That's a lot of copies of a library! What a waste!" (this has been said many times in the past, so I'm countering the argument here and now before it comes up again)
True, but that's only supposed to be for uncommon libraries anyway, you know, like only 2 or 3 applications use it. It'd be a waste to include a library in the NAND for a couple applications you may never even actually use.
If a library becomes popular enough, however, I'm sure they'll start including it in the NAND with a firmware upgrade. Then it can be removed from the PNDs and you no longer have to worry about wasted space.
I guess that my only concern would be if potential commercial apps are dynamically linked and their libraries become obsolete.
 
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Worst case, you can always boot an old firmware to play the game, right? :) But if they're staticly linked, or include their own libs, piece of cake. Or if they dynlink to some obsolete/left-behind libs, then copy those libs from the old fw into the new fw, and good to go. But it woudl be unlikely to wipe libs in newer fw's just for that reason.

jeff
 
skeezix said:
Worst case, you can always boot an old firmware to play the game, right? :) But if they're staticly linked, or include their own libs, piece of cake. Or if they dynlink to some obsolete/left-behind libs, then copy those libs from the old fw into the new fw, and good to go. But it woudl be unlikely to wipe libs in newer fw's just for that reason.

jeff
True, but I guess that's the reason a lot of people stay away from commercial linux development in general. In the end, it's easier for all parties to use an OSS solution.

However, I'm glad that the OpenPandora team are doing their best to create a uniform platform that would be feasible to develop commercial apps for. :)
 
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Christoph.Krn said:
If you want to prevent people from using or selling your Pandora in case they stole it, you're likely out of luck:
  • I assume that people who steal electronic devices to sell them usually steal devices that "mainstream people" like and are able to use, like iPods and other MP3 players, Gameboys and other popular gaming consoles.
  • Furthermore, I assume that people who steal things to use them mostly steal things they already know and would like to have.
  • Additionally, people who would buy a stolen Pandora would only do so if they knew what it is and how to use it.
Thus, I come to the conclusion that chances are high that people who steal a Pandora do exactly know what it is. This would mean that the people who would get your stolen Pandora in the end (may that be the thief himself or one of his "customers") would know how to reinstall the operating system, making it usable again. If you encrypt the flash (if done right) it might not be possible to get your personal data without enormous effort. But making a locked Pandora usable again will always be possible pretty easy due to its unbrickable design and physical access by the attacker.
Umm, I don't think people who steal electronics carefully consider what particular device something is before they take it.
It's got a screen and buttons, so they can sell it to a fence for a few bob. What else do they need to know?
 
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