Retro VGS indiegogo campaign. (changed title)


If the funding fails I hope they dont give up and just go away, just try again and figure out how to lower the goal, and take out the FPGA, even though some people have said they would make games for it if it had 2600core and so on, a lower sales price would matter more in the end.
 
I thought they already had taken out the FPGA. Or if they hadn't officially they kind of burnt the bridge of the best source for dealing with it, didn't they?
 
No they didnt take it out, they didnt call Kevtris the last schedueled meeting and they didnt talk since, thats all, if they call him again would he turn them down? Or they could just get someone else to do cores with similiar or less accuracy but its for people that want to program with the language of some system like 2600 for example, so accuracy shouldnt be a problem since the dev will test it with the core setup they have.
 
For those that dont have Facebook, heres a post from their engineer:


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We’ve promised regular updates on the progress of our product development. I see no reason to wait until after our funding campaign ends. So here we are, nearly a week after our funding campaign began at < http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/r... >...

I’d like to start my first update by giving a heartfelt thanks to our many loyal fans--especially our backers--and also an apology.

We haven’t been showing you our best work, and there are many reasons why.

The true visionary behind this project is Mike Kennedy. He’s also a marketing person with a big heart, and he wants to reciprocate the enthusiasm our followers show us by being totally open and sharing everything. I get it, and I admire him for that. But he talks, and he talks about everything I show or tell him. Again, he’s a marketing person, and that’s what marketing people do.

Knowing this about Mike (and about marketing people in general), causes me (as an engineer) to be very cautious in choosing what I share with him. The reason for this is very simple: our inventions are valuable, and premature public disclosure of our inventions would cause us to lose the ability to protect them with patents.

For most of this year I’ve been working crazy long startup hours on this project. I’ve drained my own savings to pay for both my living expenses and building prototype circuits. I have invested a lot of time and money, I have a lot to show for it.

The problem is: I can’t patent what I share publicly. As a result, I’ve been protecting my inventions as if they were my own children.

I know this doesn’t seem fair to you, our fans, especially when we ask you to help us fund building our dream system. So, I will be sharing more.

Although I have been reading many online discussions for months, I started chiming in only about a week ago. I’m still getting used to so much public dialogue, as I’m more of a geeky introvert who has been busy designing the RETRO VGS hardware and putting together cost estimates, budgets, timelines, and everything else that goes into managing a major project like this.

At this point, I’d like to try and dispel some of the misinformation that’s out there.

 

#1: We know what we’re building. We defined our requirements and architecture months ago, and they haven’t changed. One of the great things about our architecture is that it allows us to adapt our design to even the major changes we’ve seen in the component market, and it allows us to pick and choose the best components as the market changes and as our available funding grows.

For example, one semiconductor vendor (one of my favorites, the one that supplied the CPU that I built a PlayStation around) is now introducing a new generation of CPU and removing support for an old one that looked attractive earlier. The vendor has great parts and they pitched them to us well, but ultimately those parts weren’t the best fit for this product. (Giving them the extra consideration we did also delayed development of our prototype, but the prospect of using the newest part on the market was too good to ignore.)

To include the best parts that we can afford to use based on how much we raise during our funding campaign, we have so far published very few specifications about the internal components. When we have, those specifications have been based on the minimum configuration we would build.

That minimum configuration now includes (and will not be reduced below) a CPU running at least 16,000 DMIPS. That’s a pretty serious piece of hardware, which already makes RETRO VGS compare more closely to a PlayStation 3 than to a Raspberry Pi 2.

Through announcing stretch goals, we have tried to convey that our FPGA can grow in capacity and capability as our funding exceeds our minimum goal. Unfortunately, this seems to have caused some confusion, which we will attempt to clear up as soon as possible.

 

#2: We have working prototypes. For software, our game developers already have working prototypes and many even already sell finished products that run on classic platforms. For hardware, I just shot a quick video showing a little bit that won’t risk our patent rights. It isn’t much, but it shows our processor communicating via USB and driving simple high-resolution digital and analog video output. Most of our circuits are already in our enclosure, but I still have lots of ribbon cable and hand-wired circuits hanging out the back. If you want to watch it, you can view it on YouTube at < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10... >.

 

#3: We didn’t switch to Indiegogo at the last minute. We had all agreed to use Indiegogo at least two weeks before we launched our campaign. (We mention Indiegogo in a video we shot more than a week before launch.) There was a lot to do, and we were slow to get the word out.

 

#4: We didn’t switch to Indiegogo because we didn’t have a working prototype.

Kickstarter publishes a rule stating that “Projects that involve the development of physical products must feature explicit demos of working prototypes. While you can run a project focused on the creation of a prototype, you can't offer the product that is under development as a reward.” (from < http://www.kickstarter.com/rules/pr... >)

Kickstarter clearly lets many current projects slide past this requirement, and they granted us an exception, too. Getting a private exception to this publicly-stated policy seemed deceptive toward backers, and we called them on it. Kickstarter welcomed our project, but wouldn’t change its policy statement to match.

 

#5: We don’t need to hit our stretch goals to include an FPGA. Even at our minimum funding goal, RETRO VGS will include an FPGA. Hitting our stretch goals allows us to use larger devices, which just extends what we can do with a system that’s already very impressive.

 

#6: We don’t need an FPGA to run software designed to run on classic consoles.

However, new games can use the resources available in RETRO VGS much more efficiently by running natively on our system, without a layer of emulation, whether the emulation is done in hardware or software; higher efficiency means that the game can do more, or at least consume less power while doing it. Emulating classic systems in hardware is also probably the worst use of this great (and expensive) resource; it is much more economical to emulate those systems via software, but we will of course optimize an emulation we do to use the resources we have available.

 

#7: We don’t need an outside vendor to supply FPGA cores.

An FPGA is a large programmable logic device. The first time I contributed to the design of a consumer product that shipped with programmable logic was in 1989. Over the next few years, I created many more circuit designs in and around programmable logic devices of increasing sizes. After leaving Iguana Entertainment in the mid 1990s, I spent years designing chips for one of the two largest FGPA makers, which gave me intimate knowledge of the devices. Working there also gave me free access to the company’s best design tools and the people who wrote them; I love the Atari 800, so for fun that was naturally the first thing I started building cores for, with the company’s high-end devices. What were the company’s high-end devices then are only now tapering off the low end of the market, providing amateurs a good place to start. (I have continued to use newer devices since then.)

We thought we had a good vendor to delegate some of our work to and/or from whom we could leverage existing work. Clearly it didn’t work out. Although I’m disappointed by his apparent lack of professionalism, he does good work and I wish him luck in his future endeavors.

 

#8: We are going to make adapters that let you play cartridges from older systems. Mike let the cat out of the bag early on this one. (Again, Mike talks about everything.) Yes, it’s true, and it’s going to be awesome. There’s a lot of engineering yet to be done on these (mostly mechanical design and making tools for injection molding plastic) and it’s a relatively low priority for me right now, but we will definitely offer adapters at very affordable prices that allow game cartridges from selected older systems to be played on RETRO VGS.

For example, our “Expansion Module #1” plugs in like a regular cartridge, but it has switches at the top and a slot on the front that will accept and play game cartridges that were made for the Atari VCS (2600/2600A) or Sears Tele-Games system, with potentially enough room under the slot for a wood-grain sticker. When an Atari VCS cartridge is inserted into the front of the adapter, the Atari VCS cartridge sits over the top of the RETRO VGS dome so you can read the end label and the top label, many of which were printed with important information including which number to select for which game and which controller(s) to use. Atari VCS games can be played using RETRO VGS USB controllers or classic 9-pin controllers.

We hadn’t yet posted this on our campaign page, and the word is already out.

 

With that, I end my first public status report, and thank you for your continued support.

- John Carlsen
 
Not many have watched the video yet.  There were around 450 views when I watched it.  I don't know if that is because people haven't had a chance to check it out yet, or if they simply don't have very many people interested in it.  I wish I had that monitor.

It does seem that the story has changed a bit regarding their attitude toward the FPGA and emulation (#6).  Perhaps I thought they were suggesting something they never were, however it would be difficult to track down what I originally read now.

I am still going to wait and see what happens over the next couple years and then decide if I am interested.  If most other people that are interested do the same it may be dead by then.
 
Thanks for spreading that splash of cold water, mjohansson. At least we know now they have a prototype, and the main engineer seems like he knows what he's doing on his end.

However the two high-level problems still remain: the goal amount is way too high, and the purpose of the FPGA is still fuzzy, at least to me. If it's not there for classic systems, are we emulating more current systems like PS3 or mobile devices? Does it present real performance or efficiency benefits? The functional flexibility is apparent, but per Exo's replies I'm not clear on why it's so desirable.

I think they need to solve the fundamental identity problem with this system. Pandora had this to some small extent. Summarizing its purpose is very difficult.
 
Yea the identity problem, If I were the marketing guy I would have stuck to the slogan its a cartridge console, and not make a big fuss about the FPGA at all but only list it in specs, but the purpose of the console is not to emulate other systems but to play cartridge games without having to be connected to the internet, the people that care about these things know what its all about then. And everyone that wants an internet connection, an OS, games put on SD cards etc they all dont understand the intention of the system and what big gaping hole it would fill, if you want any of those other features theres already tons of Android systems along with the big 3!

Also the goal of 2million is not that high, didnt Ouya get 8million in funding? But the Ouya costed 100usd and this one is 300usd, its passed the impulse buy for most people and thats the problem, people just dont get it the concept of cartridges, myby theyre to young and didnt grow up with the smell of opening a new NES game for example, so the question is what is the REAL demand of this system? less then 200 people? I hope theres more demand then that cos I hate what the current world of videogame systems have become! :(
 
If they had waited for some things to be a bit further along I feel they wouldn't be struggling so much with the campaign.  I see real value in their vision.  I am not all that happy with where console gaming has gone either.  The only game released this year that I was very excited for, Super Mario Maker, isn't even really a game, and I am uncomfortable buying it knowing that it will be severely crippled in 5 or 6 years since it relies on internet access, and Nintendo will probably pull the plug.

There are still some recently revealed ideas I like, such as the cart adapters, and that along with the FPGA open it up to a whole lot more people.  The question is "will they buy it?" and I don't think many will at that price, especially if it is essentially the same thing as the RetroPi since the FPGA isn't going to be used for the old games/consoles.
 
If you think out of the box fpga's could perhaps offer some interesting and perhaps patentable tech or ideas. The campaign does suffer from an identity crisis and a distinct lack of clarity, granted many projects convey this air this wonderfully only for it later to be revealed that they were just smooth talkers and not necessarily hard walkers.
 
I stopped reading at "our inventions are valuable and we need to protect them with patents".

Yeah, something seems incredibly fishy about the insistence that they can't show anything yet for patent reasons.  My old company we were publicly demonstrating our tech long before the patent process was complete, because patents take time and if you wait to show things off you can find yourself dead without funding, as we are witnessing here.
Unless they haven't even started the patent process, in which case "good luck, you gonna need it".
 
To be fair , their Indigogo said the $3.1M and $3.8M stretch goals were for a bigger FPGA, not to include an FPGA period.  This seems to have tripped many people into thinking unless the stretch goals were met, then there would be no FPGA.  The IndieGogo says the HW includes a FPGA.  

The biggest issues with this campaign IMO are what seems to be still happening - poor communication. Public stoushes between team members and key suppliers, unclear messages etc.   First you had the stoush with Kevtris and now this blog blaming everything on their Marketing guy..   Not very professional and doesn't leave any confidence in backers.

I noticed that after hitting 193 backers, the project went backwards for a day or so, ending up on 187 backers, its now on 190 backers.  So basically the project is going no where.  They need something like $50K a day, when they are getting more or less Zip a day at the moment.    I'd be surprised if they make $200K let alone $2M.  

I honestly feel they should cancel the campaign, re-connect with the community, do some more research on what people want and are willing to pay, repair bridges, get their ducks and communication in line. Then sometime in the future when the dust settles and they have the community on board again, then they can relaunch the campaign.
 
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To be fair , their Indigogo said the $3.1M and $3.8M stretch goals were for a bigger FPGA, not to include an FPGA period.  This seems to have tripped many people into thinking unless the stretch goals were met, then there would be no FPGA.  The IndieGogo says the HW includes a FPGA.  

It doesn't really seem like it has any purpose though.  Based on my understanding of the recent info, they won't be using it for cores of old consoles.  Will it be used for anything with new titles?

First you had the stoush with Kevtris and now this blog blaming everything on their Marketing guy..   Not very professional and doesn't leave any confidence in backers.
Isn't "the marketing guy" the one behind all this with the big idea?  It looks like he posted that info on the IndieGoGo campaign.  I suppose you are right about professionalism, but I prefer honesty over saving face. (My preferences don't matter here since I am saving my money for another expensive niche gaming hardware project that actually seems to be very close to beginning production, and that is run by someone that has also been open about what is going on behind the scenes.)
I honestly feel they should cancel the campaign, re-connect with the community, do some more research on what people want and are willing to pay, repair bridges, get their ducks and communication in line. Then sometime in the future when the dust settles and they have the community on board again, then they can relaunch the campaign.

Sounds like a great plan, and I think they should have done all that first instead of heading straight for crowdfunding.  At some point in the last few months I thought that is what they were going to do, and when they announced the campaign was still planned I figured they had everything worked out and knew what they were doing.  I still wish them luck with their plans, but I am pretty sure they won't meet their funding goal.  At this point I don't see any more damage happening by letting it ride out and continuing to work on things until they can give it a second shot with more to show.  I think that lack of a prototype that they can really show is what is hurting them the most.
 
Not many have watched the video yet.  There were around 450 views when I watched it.  I don't know if that is because people haven't had a chance to check it out yet, or if they simply don't have very many people interested in it.  I wish I had that monitor.

I seem to recall hearing that YouTube uses some kind of fuzzy logic to calculate views that takes into account how much of the video has actually been played. 

Frankly,  Mike's monologues are boring.  He talks a lot but says very little, and most of what he starts with seems to be the same stuff he's already said elsewhere.   I watched for a few minutes but found it too mind numbing to continue.  I dare-say I lasted longer than some.
 
Yeah, something seems incredibly fishy about the insistence that they can't show anything yet for patent reasons.  My old company we were publicly demonstrating our tech long before the patent process was complete, because patents take time and if you wait to show things off you can find yourself dead without funding, as we are witnessing here.
Unless they haven't even started the patent process, in which case "good luck, you gonna need it".

I suspect that has less to do with this project and more to do with this guy's own paranoia,  which he seems to be trying to work through here, as it becomes apparent how damaging it can be to be so vague when trying to attract backers.

-Neelix
 
I think they mean well enough, blaming the head guy because he's more of a marketer seems more honesty than some kind of tactic to me. Lack of professionalism still apparent in their delivery, no doubt.

Totally agree that they're best off cancelling and re-evaluating. It's tough because that already looks bad, but if they stick it through I can only imagine their chances for a re-launch go down. Maybe I'm wrong though, I'm not well-versed in these kinds of projects.
 
I am even more confused about the prototype situation now.  Compare the video (which doesn't prove anything) and #2 in the info from John Carlsen with this in response to the cardboard prototype pics: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=179180192&postcount=1167

vcoleiro is right about the communication issues. I have spent far too much time trying to figure out what is going on and if there is even a chance of a real product since I would like for it to happen.  Maybe I should just look into what Kevtris is working on and wait for the Pyra.
 
Yes, I listened to the entire interview. Not much to hear. I think they know what they are doing but are abysmal at communicating it coherently.
Mike isn't a concise speaker and rambles too much. He also does not understand the technical side of stuff, which he admits. Interviews should should be with both mike and his technical guy. They should indeed reboot the campaign at a later date, when all the current issues have been resolved, because hey maybe these guys can pull off this device.

They need to boil the retro vgs down to a few simple easily communicable ideas and that;s it really.
 
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