Retro VGS indiegogo campaign. (changed title)

[Neelix]

That would be a start,  but being concise doesn't mean saying as little as possible.  They still need to provide information but it needs to be filtered for relevance and presented in a way such that it makes sense to the target audience while not being overly verbose.

-Neelix

 

[rygD]

So what they should do/should have done (?) is show a simple video of a working prototype, doing what it is they want to do.

Since they are asking for money and offering a console, yes that is what they should do.  I still have doubts about them being at the stage where they have an actual prototype.  There may be some hardware work done, but is it a real, physical prototype that can actually do anything?  without having anything to show I don't know what they have.  The dev board videos for the Pyra give me a lot more confidence than anything the Retro VGS team have provided, and ED isn't even asking for $2,000,000 yet.  (I am intentionally avoiding discussion of the Pandora.  I wasn't comfortable back in the early days with that either, so I held off for a while.)

There are pretty pictures and some words that have no value.  They should try to raise money to get a working prototype if they need the money that bad.  As they are doing it now there are far too many things that can go wrong.  take it one step at a time instead of asking for millions and running the risk of losing it all before they can start making the things.  I just keep thinking of that court case requiring the person who raised money on Kickstarter needing to pay people back, as well as a few other things that are a little more familiar here.  No one really seems to win if things go in that direction.

 

[notaz]

For those that dont have Facebook, heres a post from their engineer:
...
If you want to watch it, you can view it on YouTube at < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10... >.

That "workbench" doesn't look like to be set up in a practical way, it's like random "hw engineer" items tossed around the table. And that blinking LED looks suspiciously like Linux heartbeat LED trigger controlled LED.

 

[TrashyMG]

For those that dont have Facebook, heres a post from their engineer:...If you want to watch it, you can view it on YouTube at < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10... >.

That "workbench" doesn't look like to be set up in a practical way, it's like random "hw engineer" items tossed around the table. And that blinking LED looks suspiciously like Linux heartbeat LED trigger controlled LED.

That makes my workbench look professional.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

That makes my workbench look professional.

I don't even have a workbench, and I feel more professional.

 

[Exophase]

That blog update from the EE still makes this look like a big mess to me.

Notice how no one else going into big engineering crowdfunding projects is talking about how they don't want to share anything because of patents. That's because they're doing something niche enough to need crowdfunding and that funding is what they're in for financially, not an attempt to secure new business for many years. Patents are a long and cumbersome process and these days are all too often abused, where they're used to sue someone over something they clearly developed independently. Working with "one of the best patent attorneys in Silicon Valley" helps explain why their budget is so large. Frankly I doubt they're doing anything that really puts them at risk without patents anyway.

I said it before but I really feel like this guy is bringing forward a bunch of 20-30 year old corporate EE philosophies into his work today and, being the sole guy doing real design work on this, it's going to make it really hard to work out. For example, it's heavily implied that there's separate silicon for the FPGA and CPU/SoC, meaning that they're trying to make some kind of external interface between them work well. It'd be a lot more sensible to just choose an FPGA/SoC hybrid like Xilinx Zynq. This also leads to what kevtris hinted at, a complex solution of allowing both the FPGA and SoC to output to some other external display interface with a complex logic solution - again, one that could have been integrated on the same silicon.

And this talk about how they have DMIPS requirements for processor performance is a big red flag. Anyone today should know that DMIPS are a useless metric and not to be taken seriously. It's one thing to use it in marketing to try to impress people who don't know better but it shouldn't be used in their actual engineering decisions. This makes me feel like he doesn't really know enough about software performance.

But to me this is the biggest flag.. he admits that running reproduction cores of old consoles is a big part of their design (so much that they're showing off software by virtue of it having cartridges for other platforms) and he seems to think it's no problem implementing this I don't care how much experience with EE he has and how much FPGA design he's done, thinking he can implement several good console FPGA cores on his own without having extensive experience in that explicitly (in addition to doing all the other technical work on the console!) is pure hubris. People like kevtris are rare, and for a good reason.

This all reminds me of an old project called Gameport that had Ben Heck on board for mechanical design. It used an FPGA + CPU setup like this, and started out as a handheld but was eventually shifted to a console. They promised a bunch of FPGA cores too and well, it didn't turn out so well. And it actually sounded like they had a lot more of the work done already (they did at least have working Atari 2600)

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Yeah it's going nowhere as of now. The backers numbers just dropped again since yesterday.
Best call it a day and reboot or they might lose what goodwill they have thus far garnered.

 

[Exophase]

The more I think about this the more it feels like they're just doing so much wrong...

I'm not really the target audience for this device so I could be way off base, but if I were trying to make this sort of thing work here's what I'd do differently:

1) Forget the Jaguar molding, even if it saves you a little money. The case looks tacky and it's too large and it's associated with a failed and largely mocked product. But the real downside is the cartridges. Bigger carts means more expensive, more storage space, and Jaguar carts are really weird for putting on a shelf with their handle and all that. You want smaller carts so you can use smaller PCBs and save money. If you really feel like ripping off an old design it'd be cool to see something like HuCards again, especially now that you can shove a lot more into that form factor.

2) If you want to have a CPU + FPGA make that CPU some Atom variant. That gives you two things: lets you make it a Steam box with a decent library and makes it easier to test the FPGA stuff against a normal PCI-Express connection (meaning you can more realistically develop it on a PC too) instead of some weird custom thing.

3) Stop going for this whole cart-only purity angle. You've got to sell the cart thing as value added. It's great for playing original games (and homebrew) on FPGA cores, and some people will go for buying new games on carts for the novelty/preservation factors. But it's not enough to sell the thing on its own. This isn't going to get ANY meaningful number of exclusives, and if it does none of them will be system sellers. And the carts are going to cost so much more than similar quality games cost on Steam. You just can't bet everything on it. SD card slots, USB storage, and ethernet (and even wifi) are cheap additions. You need to make this something more than what's being sold to ever come close to justifying a ~$300 cost.

4) In this day and age expecting people, ESPECIALLY indie devs to get games perfect without patches is a total pipe dream. A good compromise would be a patch RAM system to supplement the carts if necessary. Or partially rewritable carts.

5) Forget analog video output, or handle it via an adapter. It's not worth the cost, something Kevtris is basically demonstrating with his pitched console. Especially don't push it early like it's this some big impressive feature because it really isn't.

6) Stop trying to get anything patented. Stop flinging mud at people online. Stop giving interviews where you say vague and contradictory things and ramble on about nothing.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

The more I think about this the more it feels like they're just doing so much wrong...

I'm not really the target audience for this device so I could be way off base, but if I were trying to make this sort of thing work here's what I'd do differently:

1) Forget the Jaguar molding, even if it saves you a little money. The case looks tacky and it's too large and it's associated with a failed and largely mocked product. But the real downside is the cartridges. Bigger carts means more expensive, more storage space, and Jaguar carts are really weird for putting on a shelf with their handle and all that. You want smaller carts so you can use smaller PCBs and save money. If you really feel like ripping off an old design it'd be cool to see something like HuCards again, especially now that you can shove a lot more into that form factor.

2) If you want to have a CPU + FPGA make that CPU some Atom variant. That gives you two things: lets you make it a Steam box with a decent library and makes it easier to test the FPGA stuff against a normal PCI-Express connection (meaning you can more realistically develop it on a PC too) instead of some weird custom thing.

3) Stop going for this whole cart-only purity angle. You've got to sell the cart thing as value added. It's great for playing original games (and homebrew) on FPGA cores, and some people will go for buying new games on carts for the novelty/preservation factors. But it's not enough to sell the thing on its own. This isn't going to get ANY meaningful number of exclusives, and if it does none of them will be system sellers. And the carts are going to cost so much more than similar quality games cost on Steam. You just can't bet everything on it. SD card slots, USB storage, and ethernet (and even wifi) are cheap additions. You need to make this something more than what's being sold to ever come close to justifying a ~$300 cost.

4) In this day and age expecting people, ESPECIALLY indie devs to get games perfect without patches is a total pipe dream. A good compromise would be a patch RAM system to supplement the carts if necessary. Or partially rewritable carts.

5) Forget analog video output, or handle it via an adapter. It's not worth the cost, something Kevtris is basically demonstrating with his pitched console. Especially don't push it early like it's this some big impressive feature because it really isn't.

6) Stop trying to get anything patented. Stop flinging mud at people online. Stop giving interviews where you say vague and contradictory things and ramble on about nothing.

Pretty much in a nutshell.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

The exclusion of Internet also seems to close a lot more doors than it opens. In return for their policy enforcement (impractical as that probably is), they're closing off game updates, online multiplayer, and Steam or any vendor like it. I mean they don't have to support any of these actively on the software side, but not having the hardware really can't be enticing for a lot of devs. In fact any game with networked multiplayer would probably not be worth porting/developing for the system.

I suppose an ethernet adapter via USB would be possible, but the simple barrier of not having it natively would deter too many people.

 

[Exophase]

The exclusion of Internet also seems to close a lot more doors than it opens. In return for their policy enforcement (impractical as that probably is), they're closing off game updates, online multiplayer, and Steam or any vendor like it. I mean they don't have to support any of these actively on the software side, but not having the hardware really can't be enticing for a lot of devs. In fact any game with networked multiplayer would probably not be worth porting/developing for the system.

Yeah, and another thing I think they're just not getting is that the cart situation is never going to be like it was for classic consoles. I mean where you can go down to a store near you one afternoon to look through a selection of new or used game carts and buy whatever looks cool. Instead you're going to have to order cartridges online, pay S&H, and wait a few days at least. That is, if the game is in stock - if the more popular homebrew carts have shown me anything it's that many will have to wait for their manufacturing run to come. The situation will also be a lot worse for anyone who doesn't live in the same country as the game manufacturer.

And most games are going to need to go through their own crowdfunding phase just to raise the money for the cartridges. Unless Retro VGS wants to publish everything themselves. But I doubt they'll have the money to do this either, at least not beyond a few carts. That's probably another reason for the huge funding goal, so they can actually provide the pack-in.

I get there's a pushback against digital distribution taking over everything and I'm not going to say that's how it has to be universally, but that really has to be an option here. Get carts out after games have been able to raise a userbase through the much easier digital option, or at least let people put them on SD cards first.

 

[EvilDragon]

My guess is they wanted to reuse the Jaguar mould as that actually saves them the task of designing a new case, including all possible issues like shrinking marks, etc.

For the carts: I think something like MegaDrive carts would be the perfect size. HuCards don't give the feeling of having a cartridge based game - more than something like an SD Card game.

One thing that they'd need to make sure though: Instant start. A cartridge console should run the code from the game immediately after switching it on.

If it boots first, it doesn't feel like a cartridge based game...

 

[dflatline]

We've had the Jaguar mold used for the Jaguar, then it was used for some sort of dental equiment and now this..I hope the Jaguar mold continues to be passed around and when I'm old and grey I can wander around charity shops and second hand shops Jaguar molded item spotting.

If it boots first, it doesn't feel like a cartridge based game...

Unless it boots straight into a built in game like the Sega Master System or Atari 7800 did

 

[mjohansson]

Cmon guys, what youre saying is make it into a Steambox or Android console, and there are already a ton of those, whats the point of disapearing in a crowd? Would you buy the Retro VGS if it were such a device? I doubt it. Did the Pandora sell a measly 6000 units? What advice would you have for ED to turn the Panda into a billion dillion unit selling succesfull device? Skip the keyboard, kids only like touchscreen controls anyway? Run the Android OS as default?
YOU DONT GET IT, there is NO other cartridge system out there, not an alive one I mean. Though I dont like the Jaguar size cartridges either... I would have wanted NEO GEO sized!!!1

 

[pmprog]

YOU DONT GET IT, there is NO other cartridge system out there, not an alive one I mean.

But as Exophase mentioned, cart availability is going to be low. They're not going to mass-manufacture 2 million of each cart and get them stocked in game shops around the world. So I wouldn't be able to walk into the local "Game" and pick it up. Meaning that I'm having to buy the game online, in which case, you might as well let me download it, rather than wait for manufacture and shipping.

I think even something bastardised could have been a good idea. Think like an N64 cart with an SD card slot in it, and the actual cart does nothing more than extend the pins down from the SD to the console.
 

 

[mjohansson]

I dont mind waiting for something if its worth waiting for, and just because its sent in postal dosnt mean that you could have just downloaded it instead, then you miss the point of cartridges, you dont have to go into a shop that sells videogames you could just buy online and download it as well...
I dont even care anymore, it seems its not gonna happen so fuck it, but heres what I dreamed of:
New games on nice looking cartridges, no patches or DLC or any downloads, starts immidiatly, stays the same always, no DRM or restrictions and no instalations. And unltimatly, I dreamed of exclusive games taking advantage of the unique hardware.
Why are people so upset over the fact theres atleast a handfull people out there that wanted this? Cant we get such a system and such games, how does that hurt anyone else who are not interested in it? You already have your million Android devices and Steamboxes, that your not buying anyway so whats with all the hate?

 

[pmprog]

I dont mind waiting for something if its worth waiting for, and just because its sent in postal dosnt mean that you could have just downloaded it instead, then you miss the point of cartridges, you dont have to go into a shop that sells videogames you could just buy online and download it as well..

Fair comment.

 

Why are people so upset over the fact theres atleast a handfull people out there that wanted this? Cant we get such a system and such games, how does that hurt anyone else who are not interested in it? You already have your million Android devices and Steamboxes, that your not buying anyway so whats with all the hate?

It's the internet, where everyone else is wrong and should be harrassed for it. Isn't that the rule? I, personally, quite like the sound of it, but have far to much other stuff to consume what little free time I have left

 

[rygD]

The more I think about this the more it feels like they're just doing so much wrong...

I'm not really the target audience for this device so I could be way off base, but if I were trying to make this sort of thing work here's what I'd do differently:

I think I am the target audience and agree with almost everything you said.

 

The exclusion of Internet also seems to close a lot more doors than it opens. In return for their policy enforcement (impractical as that probably is), they're closing off game updates, online multiplayer, and Steam or any vendor like it. I mean they don't have to support any of these actively on the software side, but not having the hardware really can't be enticing for a lot of devs. In fact any game with networked multiplayer would probably not be worth porting/developing for the system.

I suppose an ethernet adapter via USB would be possible, but the simple barrier of not having it natively would deter too many people.

The big one for me is online multiplayer.  Most people that will buy this probably don't have time/local friends to bother with trying to get together a group to play at their house.  We aren't kids anymore that can just have other kids from the neighborhood come over and play all day on the weekends.

 

Cmon guys, what youre saying is make it into a Steambox or Android console, and there are already a ton of those, whats the point of disapearing in a crowd? Would you buy the Retro VGS if it were such a device? I doubt it. Did the Pandora sell a measly 6000 units? What advice would you have for ED to turn the Panda into a billion dillion unit selling succesfull device? Skip the keyboard, kids only like touchscreen controls anyway? Run the Android OS as default?
YOU DONT GET IT, there is NO other cartridge system out there, not an alive one I mean. Though I dont like the Jaguar size cartridges either... I would have wanted NEO GEO sized!!!1

I am not really interested in steam and such, but the problem is that their current plans mean there will be an extremely limited number of titles.  It would be completely pointless for me to pay $500-600 to get all the games and never have a chance of any more.  I collect to use, not display.  It should be designed to let me play other games from USB (or maybe an official flash cart).  There is an adapter that changes things a little, but I already have the original consoles which I own games for, plus the original controllers.  Are they planning on adding a place to plug in controllers on the adapter?  If the FPGA won't be used for the old consoles there are already better/cheaper options (original console, Retrode, emulators with USB adaptor for controllers or USB controllers).

 

Why are people so upset over the fact theres atleast a handfull people out there that wanted this? Cant we get such a system and such games, how does that hurt anyone else who are not interested in it? You already have your million Android devices and Steamboxes, that your not buying anyway so whats with all the hate?

I am one of those that wants something like this.  I am upset that the way they are trying to do everything is stupid.  Yes, include carts but do it in a way that it isn't centralized and intentionally limited by design.  As I understand past statements they made they will restrict the number of certain titles to artificially create rarity...how does that make any sense for something that will only have a few titles anyway?  I think most of the people that are upset are others that are at least somewhat interested in something of this sort, not those that want a steam or android tv device.  I am not talking about just the people here, though, and I don't really see hate here, just criticism.  We do that for everything here, including the Pandora and Pyra ("No camera?!" "wtf with the keyboard layout?" "MOAR RAM!!!11!1!" "we need a better SoC" etc...).

 

[WizardStan]

Why are people so upset over the fact theres atleast a handfull people out there that wanted this?

Because it sets a precedent.  When it fails it will be a stain on the future of any indie cart console; the more spectacular the fail, the bigger the stain.  There aren't "a handful of people", there are many, many, MANY people that want this, they just want it done right.  If this team gets funding and through hubris and incompetence screws everything up beyond recovery, when another team tries to do the same there will be people that point back at this failed project and exclaim how it just won't work.  These haters can be entirely wrong, the new team could be quite competent and ready for anything, but it'll be a drag on the campaign regardless.
Just wait until the Pyra is up for sale, you'll see this in action: watch the haters come out of the woodwork to talk about how "it's the same guys who made the failed Pandora console, don't be scammed", and I guarantee EvilDragon will get fewer sales as a direct result of that.  Same thing here, this guy is going to fail, he can either fail gracefully by backing off, seeing what needs to be fixed, and trying again, or he can fail hard and make it harder for himself and anyone else in the future.
He's hell bent on the latter option, it seems.  Looks like we'll be lucky and he won't get the money, at least.

 

[Exophase]

Cmon guys, what youre saying is make it into a Steambox or Android console, and there are already a ton of those, whats the point of disapearing in a crowd? Would you buy the Retro VGS if it were such a device? I doubt it. Did the Pandora sell a measly 6000 units? What advice would you have for ED to turn the Panda into a billion dillion unit selling succesfull device? Skip the keyboard, kids only like touchscreen controls anyway? Run the Android OS as default?
YOU DONT GET IT, there is NO other cartridge system out there, not an alive one I mean. Though I dont like the Jaguar size cartridges either... I would have wanted NEO GEO sized!!!1

I said make it have Steambox support in ADDITION to being a cart system. That doesn't make it disappear, that helps make it justify its high cost without adding much extra.