Requesting Video Of Tv Out Cables With Crt Tv

[Poem58]

Do not argue with dflemstr. He has facts which he wields like hammers. :lol:

I personally can tell the difference between Triple Buffering on and Off. (which at 60fps is a sub-50ms difference)

I'm sure many people will notice it, but there's not much that can be done if it's entirely the TV. (which I suspect it is, because consoles lag horribly too)

Conclusion: Worry more once we have actual Pandoras we can try on actual TVs. For now there's no solving it.

Wow, I thought I was the only one to have weird issues with seeing things. When using a CRT monitor I can tell people whether they are using 60hz,75hz or 85hz refresh as less than 85 (pardon the pun) hurts my eyes. 75 is tolerable for awhile, and 60 gives me a headache. I'm fine on LCD's but can see my OLED car stereo display's refresh if my eyes are moving past it up or down. Strange I know. I've been told I shouldn't be able to see anything noticeable above 60hz, as well as that I shouldn't be able to hear the loud high pitch whine that comes from all CRT tubes (which I can hear and had proven I could hear (in a completely separate room) to the dropped jaw of the person observing the CRT being turned off and on randomly while I called out it's state.)
Moral to the story, some people are more sensitive to these differences and lets just hope we all have no issues or that they are easily corrected when the time comes. After all if an IPOD (w/video) can output to TV just fine, I'm sure the Pandora will be just fine as well. OF course if I connect mine to my CRT TV and it's way out of sync, I will be screaming. OK, not screaming, but begging for a fix...lol.

 

[Tor]

To have problems with a CRT monitor with refresh rate below 85Hz is quite common. Sometimes it's caused by a combination of the screen refresh, the 50- or 60Hz of the lights in the room (particularly fluorescent office lights) and your eye movement (and they move all the time whether you know it or not). Not to mention when there might be interlacing added to the mix. Oh, and how "fast" or "slow" the CRT phosphor is.

Back to the original issue: If I connect my N900 to my TV and compare its display and the TV display, I should get a good idea of what kind of inherent latency it's got, or not? And if the Pandora turns out to be different it would be caused by the Pandora? Or is this not comparable unless the same resolution is used?

 

[EvilDragon]

Okay, just a few information here. I haven't tested in on a CRT yet, but I will do soon (within the next 1 - 2 weeks).

Some basic information: Processing video signals always does need time. As the Pandora doesn't need to process it differently than for the internal LCD, I doubt it will add a delay (well, maybe 1 - 2 ms, but not more. A PAL frame is 20ms. The average person can't notice delays up to 15ms).

In a (standard) CRT, the image doesn't need any processing. SVHS / CVBS are analogue signals, so as long as they aren't digitized anymore, this won't add delay.
Most standard CRTs simply display the analogue signal, so it won't add delay.

I'm pretty sure there will be more problems with LCD TVs. Almost all cheap ones (under 1000USD) or older ones add quite a bit of delay, because they are very slow processing the analogue signals into digital data (which also needs to be scaled to their resolution).
Most of those LCDs / Plasmas do know about their delay and add the same delay onto audio in. Which works well when watching movies, but is terrible with games. Just connect an old video gaming console and try if it will work correctly... if it has a delay, the Pandora will at least have the same delay on your TV.

The more recent gaming consoles (PS3, XBox360) are outputting digital signals through HDMI. The LCD TV doesn't need to process that data, since it comes in their native resolution. So there's no delay added here.

I hope this does help. I'm pretty sure there's no delay on the Pandora, but there will be delay on many of your LCD TVs.

 

[Awakening]

I'm pretty sure there will be more problems with LCD TVs. Almost all cheap ones (under 1000USD) or older ones add quite a bit of delay, because they are very slow processing the analogue signals into digital data (which also needs to be scaled to their resolution).
Most of those LCDs / Plasmas do know about their delay and add the same delay onto audio in. Which works well when watching movies, but is terrible with games. Just connect an old video gaming console and try if it will work correctly... if it has a delay, the Pandora will at least have the same delay on your TV.

My brand new 32" LCD with a price tag of around 1000 USD have about 30 ms of delay when I'm using my PS2. At least that's what I got Guitar Hero set to in order to hit the notes. It is not visible but the window for hitting the notes are so small that if I don't compensate for the lag I miss a lot of notes. For almost all games this little lag will not affect the gameplay.

 

[notaz]

Back to the original issue: If I connect my N900 to my TV and compare its display and the TV display, I should get a good idea of what kind of inherent latency it's got, or not? And if the Pandora turns out to be different it would be caused by the Pandora? Or is this not comparable unless the same resolution is used?

Yeah N900 should be a good indication, it's mostly the same hardware and even video driver.

 

[Asmo]

CRT HD TVs? That must be a rareitem.

Reasonably rare, but they're around. Up until a couple of years ago you could buy a widescreen CRT with component in, that would do 720p. I'm hoping my next TV is one of these (second hand of course)!

I have a Barco 800 CRT Projector that can do full HD, one of the inherent wonders of the old tube tech is that (optional line doublers, quadruplers and the like aside) they sync directly to the fed signal, drawing in rasters exactly what is being fed, hence the absence of any latency when compared with flatscreen TVs doing any upscaling. I'm guessing that if a HD CRT Tv (assuming you can find one) has onboard upscaling for standard resolution signals, you'd get near zero sync disparity if you disabled it! You will of course then get ye olde raster lines, but this - as any MAME devotee will know - is as it should be.

 

[Polossatik]

Wow, I thought I was the only one to have weird issues with seeing things. When using a CRT monitor I can tell people whether they are using 60hz,75hz or 85hz refresh as less than 85 (pardon the pun) hurts my eyes. 75 is tolerable for awhile, and 60 gives me a headache. I'm fine on LCD's but can see my OLED car stereo display's refresh if my eyes are moving past it up or down. Strange I know. I've been told I shouldn't be able to see anything noticeable above 60hz, as well as that I shouldn't be able to hear the loud high pitch whine that comes from all CRT tubes (which I can hear and had proven I could hear (in a completely separate room) to the dropped jaw of the person observing the CRT being turned off and on randomly while I called out it's state.)
Moral to the story, some people are more sensitive to these differences and lets just hope we all have no issues or that they are easily corrected when the time comes. After all if an IPOD (w/video) can output to TV just fine, I'm sure the Pandora will be just fine as well. OF course if I connect mine to my CRT TV and it's way out of sync, I will be screaming. OK, not screaming, but begging for a fix...lol.

I have the same issues you have, that high pitch noise most CRT's make drives me crazy and seen most people don't hear it, you're the "funny" one..

The Ipod video out (playing movies) is not a good "test" if you want to play games on the pandora tv out.
For movies if you delay both sound and video the same amount there is no problem (unless you hook up the audio to a external amp, in that case the "tv" cannot delay the sound and you may notice the delay). .

I have a Barco 800 CRT Projector that can do full HD, one of the inherent wonders of the old tube tech is that ...

Sexy!

 

[jlowe48]

CRT HD TVs? That must be a rareitem.

Reasonably rare, but they're around. Up until a couple of years ago you could buy a widescreen CRT with component in, that would do 720p. I'm hoping my next TV is one of these (second hand of course)!

I have a Barco 800 CRT Projector that can do full HD, one of the inherent wonders of the old tube tech is that (optional line doublers, quadruplers and the like aside) they sync directly to the fed signal, drawing in rasters exactly what is being fed, hence the absence of any latency when compared with flatscreen TVs doing any upscaling. I'm guessing that if a HD CRT Tv (assuming you can find one) has onboard upscaling for standard resolution signals, you'd get near zero sync disparity if you disabled it! You will of course then get ye olde raster lines, but this - as any MAME devotee will know - is as it should be.

@Asmo, You are one of the lucky ones with your CRT projector.

Consumer grade CRT based HD displays are generally fixed frequency. This is true of both CRT based HD TVS I have owned, a 30" Sony widescreen direct view CRT, and a Toshiba CRT rear projector. The native resolution in both cases is 1080i. These displays both scan convert 480i input signals to the native resolution.

Depending on the CRT based monitor/TV, there may be a field/frame worth of lag when inputting a signal that does not match the native display resolution. I can not say I have noticed much lag with my two HD CRT displays, but I am not good enough at DDR or Guitar Hero to be blaming anything on the display. Most other games I play on a PC.

 

[DaMummy]

i have a 1080i crt and it doesnt give me a lag on wii or n64, and who the hell pays 1000USD for a 32inch lcd?

 

[Awakening]

i have a 1080i crt and it doesnt give me a lag on wii or n64, and who the hell pays 1000USD for a 32inch lcd?

I did There are far more expensive 32" LCDs out there. Size is not all that matters!

 

[Poem58]

I have the same issues you have, that high pitch noise most CRT's make drives me crazy and seen most people don't hear it, you're the "funny" one..

The Ipod video out (playing movies) is not a good "test" if you want to play games on the pandora tv out.
For movies if you delay both sound and video the same amount there is no problem (unless you hook up the audio to a external amp, in that case the "tv" cannot delay the sound and you may notice the delay). .

Wow, good to know there is at least one other that can hear the tube, and yeah, it's really annoying. Notice how sometimes it's Really really prominent. Even the same TV some days can really give you a headache while others you just don't notice it much? As for the Ipod, I wasn't exactly trying to compare it. Just if such a low power device can be made to appear to function properly there shouldn't be a problem getting the Pandora to work, at least not with the kind of coders we have in this community. I feel confident that as long as the Pandora has the physical horsepower, there will be nothing that cannot be handled by the talent we have here.

 

[Polossatik]

I have the same issues you have, that high pitch noise most CRT's make drives me crazy and seen most people don't hear it, you're the "funny" one..

The Ipod video out (playing movies) is not a good "test" if you want to play games on the pandora tv out.
For movies if you delay both sound and video the same amount there is no problem (unless you hook up the audio to a external amp, in that case the "tv" cannot delay the sound and you may notice the delay). .

Wow, good to know there is at least one other that can hear the tube, and yeah, it's really annoying. Notice how sometimes it's Really really prominent. Even the same TV some days can really give you a headache while others you just don't notice it much? As for the Ipod, I wasn't exactly trying to compare it. Just if such a low power device can be made to appear to function properly there shouldn't be a problem getting the Pandora to work, at least not with the kind of coders we have in this community. I feel confident that as long as the Pandora has the physical horsepower, there will be nothing that cannot be handled by the talent we have here.

please don't talk me about the "tube noise"...pure horror... haunted me for years at my old folks home....
Not mentioning the "pain" of going out with friends and attending a concert/gig/disco where the high frequencies where not cut off properly...

One of the reason why I spend big money for early LCD screens (aldo some where even worse then tubes), not mentioning the one (!) ridiculously very expensive, 20" NEC/lacie monitor I found who for some bizarre reason did not made to much noise I could hear.
As an IT person you can see my problem ... try switching employer in the early 90's and insisting on having one kind of CRT monitor for ALL people around you...

I can hear (not kidding) my P4 desktop writing to a SD card trough my external card reader or an USB stick from the front USB ports.
Not really a major thing, but it freaks out people when I can "hear" when a copy operation is finished on a "solide state" device...
so I just don't mention it anymore ...

I simply can't sleep when some PC's/laptops in my home are "on" due the high pitch noise they make...

For the ipod the "tv lag" problem is simply different, if you play video on an ipod "all" you need to do (from tv point of view) is to delay the sound the same "time" as the lag for the video, problem solved.
If you however actually "push buttons" you notice the lag and nothing the tv can do about that, so you need to have some kind of "setting" in the game/software to tell "my video is lagging xxx ms behind, please take notice of this and adjust gameplay"...

Not much the pandora itself can do, "TV lag" really needs to be solved at application level.

 

[Tom`]

I can hear (not kidding) my P4 desktop writing to a SD card trough my external card reader or an USB stick from the front USB ports.
Not really a major thing, but it freaks out people when I can "hear" when a copy operation is finished on a "solide state" device...
so I just don't mention it anymore ...

If you're using headphones (or maybe speakers, but it's easiest to hear with high-sensitivity IEMs) plugged into a front-side jack, this kind of thing is really easy to hear. I don't know why. The noise is present when plugged straight into the motherboard/sound card too, but less obvious. I guess it's due to changes in electromagnetic interference inside the case, but I don't know why different operations produce distinct noises.

 

[Tor]

Don't worry guys, give it a few more years and you won't hear any of those high-pitch noises. I passed that stage years ago. It's a long long time since I could even hear the sound I grew up with, which was the 15625 Hz PAL line frequency of TVs. Obviously some loud concerts etc. helped too (for some interpretation of "help").