Regional Keyboards

[Monk]

I don't understand why there are people saying no to regional keyboards.

If you just want a normal US keyboard then fine, order one!

- You won't pay more!
- Your Pandora won't be delayed!
- You won't get any stupid chars on your keys!

If i want a french/japanese/weeaboo keyboard it's ME that is going to pay for it.. not YOU. So why are you saying no? That seems just selfish..
And yeah, i can live with a standard keyboard.. but if i can get a chance of getting a better one for me later on.. why not?! Does it bother you knowing that my keyboard is different from yours?

There are a number of factors to take into account. As with most people, the layout as it is currently displayed in the latest render does not suit me all that well - but I'd live with it fairly happily in order to not cause any delays. Even if I thought for one moment that my concerns would and should be listened to and acted upon I would hesitate to create a discussion on the topic for fear of causing MORE delays. Another months delay would irritate me incredibly.

As it currently stands, with the suggestion that a single standard keyboard layout as the team originally envisioned, cost and time are largely predictable and there is no reason for us to expect any delays. HOWEVER - if a German layout were to be an option, then two layouts need to be designed and the correct number of each printed (unless the second - German - one is an optional extra, like a spare battery). Fair enough, but once there is one regional variation it would seem to me to be unfair to not offer regional variations for other countries. So we'd nee dFrench, Italian, and so on versions.

These COULD take extra time to sort out who wants what, unless thet are optional extras (an excellent idea in some ways) although as optional extras they could impact warranty issues. But they WOULd take extra time to design which could impact the cause, and could EASILY cost more money than a single batch of one standard international design.

In addition to potentially costing OP more and taking longer to get andora1: 's made and out the door, there is the POTENTIAL for software (including, but not limited to, games) to need a key which is not on a specific keyboard but is on others. Standardisation happens for a reason.

And, of course, we have people who type in various different languages, who need to be able to access the unique characters from several different locales. No single keyboard could possibly suit everyone perfectly without the addition of a considerable number of extra keys.

So IMHO, it's easily about compatability, cost, delays, and compatability (of a different ilk) long before we get to xenophibia or selfishness - or even design considerations ("neatness" vs "clutter").

 

[peca]

I wonder how many would be required for it to be "statistically significant"? (though I generally hold that most statistics are the biggest lies out there, their examination can prove useful if one does not rely too heavily upon them).

Statistically significant is 30+ samples, no matter how many is samples in total. 120+ samples is enough for any statistical calculation. There is only one problem - sample relevance. We can discus about taking sample of voting members as relevant in comparison to the whole file of preorderers. But my opinion is that it is relevant.

 

[Monk]

Hmm... if OP are ordering 4000 andora1: 's and are expecting to get 500 or fewer failures and are still trying to make up about 300 more orders. it seems to me that about 350 votes (369, whatever - ballpark figure) would be about 10% of the current customer base. For the first batch.

I wonder how many would be required for it to be "statistically significant"? (though I generally hold that most statistics are the biggest lies out there, their examination can prove useful if one does not rely too heavily upon them).

First, I'm sorry for my outburst

The problem with that poll was, that only people who knew enough English to participate in this forum were able to vote. Many people don't know enough English. It's not really a fair poll and the small number of participants shows it.


No worries - and your response here is a perfect example of why I tend to distrust statistics. Many of them, and this one specifically, tend to be self-serving. In this case you're saying that the poll is slanted towards English-speakers (which seems a reasonable premise) so would be slanted towards people who would vote for an English keyboard. Were OP themselves to request a vote (I hope they do not, this is messy enough as it is!) I'd hope they would try to take such factors into account (ideally my having the post be multi-lingual rather than skewing the results based on where orders had come from).

Ta

 

[mali]

unless thet are optional extras

That's currently the plan, see post #24

 

[Karel Jansens]

Just to play Devil's advocate one last time: this isn't exactly the same circumstance, where the devs had an idea and sought public opinion, molding that idea to fit the communities desire. The poll people keep referring to was not started by any dev; it was started by just a regular member of the board, same as you or I. They are not technically ignoring the opinions of the community because they hadn't ASKED for the opinion of the community in this case. As ED said, the layout had not been finalized when he posted it. Maybe, if given the chance, they would have continued to tweak it, and then posted an official poll asking "what do you think of this?" But they didn't get that chance, because they were swamped under waves of complaints. That's what I am protesting against: not that people are complaining about the layout, but that they are arguing the devs didn't listen to an unsolicited 6 month old thread that they probably forgot about and may not have even read.
My stance was, is, and will remain thus: no matter what layout is chosen, it will be wrong for my purposes, and I will be remapping the keys, guaranteed. If the choice were put to me, I would choose a "wrong" layout over my preferred layout because I know my preference is not for everyone, and I would give one that simply fits to the largest demographic.
And that's the last time I hope to have to voice my opinion on the matter.

E.g. and IIRC the discussion about the placement of the SD card slots wasn't started by the devs either. Ironically, I think that was also started by the unveiling of a 3D render.

 

[salasq]

The thing is, who cares what the keyboard provides? Its there for *GAMES*, not writing your dissertation on the flavour of undies preferred by prostitutes during the crimean crisis ..

If you need umlaut and a fancy keyboard, there is this amazing new technology called USB that can - for a very cheap investment of, say, 10 of your local coconuts or whatever currency your funny-speaking country uses - provide all the umlauty cicero ae-ei-ii-oe-wu you need ..

It's not primarily a gaming device for everyone. Off-the-cuff IM, email and RSS look like it's best uses for me. External USB keyboard would kind of defeat the purpose of such tiny package, might as well whip out the laptop then - at least it's in one piece.

Also, while on the topic of pants - there were regional differences overall, but in Crimean during the crisis, underwear-wearing prostitutes were a rarity and, correspondingly, very damn expensive.

 

[Karel Jansens]

Hmm... if OP are ordering 4000 andora1: 's and are expecting to get 500 or fewer failures and are still trying to make up about 300 more orders. it seems to me that about 350 votes (369, whatever - ballpark figure) would be about 10% of the current customer base. For the first batch.

I wonder how many would be required for it to be "statistically significant"? (though I generally hold that most statistics are the biggest lies out there, their examination can prove useful if one does not rely too heavily upon them).

Look, you can't play statistics on voting. You either vote or you don't. Period. If you don't, can't or won't vote, your vote does not get counted. That's how voting works.

Polls on this forum have been acknowledged as a valid user input medium, even by the developers, so claiming that the results of one particular poll are statistically insignificant is EU-dictatorship-like "democracy" at best.

 

[mali]

Polls on this forum have been acknowledged as a valid user input medium, even by the developers, so claiming that the results of one particular poll are statistically insignificant is EU-dictatorship-like "democracy" at best.

A poll touching national considerations that leaves out those nations is insignificant.

 

[Bronek]

I don't understand why there are people saying no to regional keyboards.

are there? I have not noticed anyone. It is the people opposing the standard keyboard with regional characters, which is entirely different matter.

 

[MiniSinisterMinister]

Someone asked what the problem with different keypad versions is for some people.

Firstly, you normally do NOT have a choice. If a company starts to localize its products, the localized version will be the only one available in that country. If ED starts to sell Pandoras with a German keypad, it is very likely that these will be the only ones available in his shop. If I don not like that, he will probably say that I should order at CraigX's shop. But why should I order abroad with all the risks involved if I have an official distributer in my country?

Secondly, there are often minor inconveniences with localized products. For example a localized version of Windows has "Programme" as its default directory for applications. The directory in the more widely used versions of Windows is called "program files" however. So this is no problem as long as all your applications are properly localized. But an application that is not properly localized will try to install itself in "program files", it will not find such a directory and create one. So, sooner or later, you will end up with two standard directories for applications and you never know in which one the application your looking for is hiding :rolleyes: ED assured me that there will be no such stupid problems with localized keypads because all applications will use the correct driver. But I am not so sure....

 

[mali]

You can always try to find fault with something, but the advantages overweight the disadvantages by far. Many Germans will recognize it as a plus and it will push sales.

 

[Alpha2]

If we did this, would it make you all happy? or is it ?

The problem is that there's no such thing as a generic keypad layout that's going to please everyone. Americans (and presumably people in the UK) are going to want easy access to buttons and symbols they use on a daily basis without having to press three buttons. If I have to do more than hit shift to get a comma or parenthesis it's going to end up being inconvient either for text messaging over wifi or simply typing a document.

Then there are the people from the non english speaking regions are going to be demanding all kinds of symbols that english either rarely uses ot never uses at all.

the only way to please the majority of people is with different keymats.

 

[Asmo]

why not make each key a tiny self programmable LCD and be done with it

....mmmm... /dribbles....

http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/

 

[Tor]

Firstly, you normally do NOT have a choice. If a company starts to localize its products, the localized version will be the only one available in that country. If ED starts to sell Pandoras with a German keypad, it is very likely that these will be the only ones available in his shop. If I don not like that, he will probably say that I should order at CraigX's shop. But why should I order abroad with all the risks involved if I have an official distributer in my country?

This is true for most devices, but there's no reason it should be true for the Pandora. We seem to be in much closer contact with the manufacturer than for any device I've ever bought before.. ;-)

QUOTE

Secondly, there are often minor inconveniences with localized products. For example a localized version of Windows has "Programme" as its default directory for applications. The directory in the more widely used versions of Windows is called "program files" however. So this is no problem as long as all your applications are properly localized. But an application that is not properly localized will try to install itself in "program files", it will not find such a directory and create one. So, sooner or later, you will end up with two standard directories for applications and you never know in which one the application your looking for is hiding :rolleyes: ED assured me that there will be no such stupid problems with localized keypads because all applications will use the correct driver. But I am not so sure....

Ah, the MS way.. fortunately the way localization works on Linux is infinitively more intelligent. Applications are always in the same place, the localization is always simply a set of files in the localization directories. Getting a localization is just a question of that application having the localization files in /usr/share/locale/<your_locale>/ or not. (or similar places). Everything else is the same, and you can rip out the localization files if you want - the fallback is always the non-localized, generic version.

 

[Karel Jansens]

Polls on this forum have been acknowledged as a valid user input medium, even by the developers, so claiming that the results of one particular poll are statistically insignificant is EU-dictatorship-like "democracy" at best.

A poll touching national considerations that leaves out those nations is insignificant.

The keyboard poll was never about nationalities. From the get-go it was understood that the Pandora would come with a generic QWERTY-like layout; the discussion was only about the placement of non-letter symbols and how to access them. You're really grasping at straws here.

 

[mali]

The keyboard poll was never about nationalities. From the get-go it was understood that the Pandora would come with a generic QWERTY-like layout; the discussion was only about the placement of non-letter symbols and how to access them. You're really grasping at straws here.

It was assumed by you and others that it would be a QWERTY-like layout without special characters, like it was assumed that the poll would have an influence on the Devs' decisions.

Edit:
BTW, on every render ö, ä, ß etc. were included. So I could defend a standpoint, that I was led to believe that the default Pandora would contain my language specific printings
I'm no dogmatic guy and I'm willing to admit compromises, but I'm not the one who tries to bend reality.

 

[Phawx]

I assumed it was QWERTY as well. But that was because of all the renders I've seen keeping that assumption alive.

Though, I think it's a good idea to sell different keymats for different regions.

@Mali, I just now seen your edit. I don't really pay much attention to the Fn keys. I am specifically talking about QWERTY being clearly visible.

BonT - If there is a market for seperate keypads, why are people against this? Even if the Pandora Devs didn't do this, it wouldn't stop anyone else from creating a different keymat.


EDIT:

You know what would be a fantastic idea. If the keys used e-ink instead of OLED. e-ink only needs to be charged to change state and that's it. For power reasons e-ink would be the bee's knees.

 

[kollau]

I'm just fine with NEO or RISTOME keyboards. Maybe even Dvorak.

 

[RajTakhar]

Hopefully this will put paid to all the keyboard wrangling that has been going on over the past few days

Thanks ED

Now just watch cos i'm sure you guys will get it in the neck for all the foreign language keyboards not having this that and the other on them

But seriously having the option for different matts for different languages is the most common sense approach to this and should be acceptable to the rest of the community

 

[Edy]

You know what would be a fantastic idea. If the keys used e-ink instead of OLED. e-ink only needs to be charged to change state and that's it. For power reasons e-ink would be the bee's knees.

I believe it's too late for such things, and even on-time this would be out of scope. A better, easier to develop solution would be having a special button for displaying a translucent overlay on-screen with an alterate keyboard layout, as I described in post #19.