R.I.P. Robin Williams

[Klumpen]

Dafuq? Last friday someone at IGN forums predicted his death:

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/are-people-bracing-themselves-for-the-fact-that-robin-williams-will-die-soon.454158743/

Either he killed him, he was a stalker, or this is a very creepy coinscidence.

no I don't plan to kill him you sick weirdo's, why would I kill someone I love.

Unless it was a mercy kill and he asked me to in which case I'd be honored

Who talks about someone with a known history of depression like that mere days before his death? oO

Well, he was a gamer and movie star and this is a gaming and movie board, maybe he has seen the thread on friday or his agent showed it to him...

 

[Klumpen]

You know, the discussion is quite senseless if you do not define, what "chemical" means in that sense. In fact EVERYTHING is a chemical, especially the messenger substances in your brain.


E.g. if you loose someone you love, be sure: The chemicals in your brains will change. Some messenger substances will be produced more, some produced less.


And the "system" brain may get to a new stable state, which you may call depressed.

Exactly.

People thinking that a normal brain has absolutely the same chemical reactions and proportions to everything are just victims of the usual superficial arguments of the pharmaceutical/medicinal industry that tells that chemistry always is the cause and not a reaction so they can sell their "cure".

Of course nobody measures his brain chemistry every day so this delusion may stay popular for a very long time.

It was confirmed that he was indeed on anti-depressants.

Not everything can be explained away by science, and the same holds true on the spiritual side.

Then please explain why anti-depressants work

They obviously did not work.

 

[DaMummy]

Not everything can be explained away by science, and the same holds true on the spiritual side.

Then please explain why anti-depressants work, if that can't be explained by science. And why electro-shock therapy works as well. On the contrary, many aspects of depression are explained by science and we know a lot more about things work in the brain now than 20 years ago. Of course there's a long way to go still, but pretending it's all a big mystery does not reflect the state of our knowledge.

you're an idiot.

 

[Null]

And why electro-shock therapy works as well.

AFAICR nobody knows exactly why it works, there are a few suppositions floating around of course but nothing concrete.

 

[ekianjo]

They obviously did not work.

I was talking in general terms, obviously. There's enough scientific evidence that anti-depressants do work very well for many types of depressions, and most of the time the reason why patients get worse is because they don't stay on treatment, decide to skip doses, or do not tolerate the treatment anymore.  

 

[ekianjo]

And why electro-shock therapy works as well.

AFAICR nobody knows exactly why it works, there are a few suppositions floating around of course but nothing concrete.

That much is true, there is no real explanation as to why it works so far. What I meant, however, is that they are clearly demonstrated, reproducible effects, and it was considered a very effective treatment against some major forms of depression until anti-depressants were discovered and released. 

I suspect we'll get a lot more research on this as the subject of "brain hacking" is becoming increasingly popular (people plugging low current voltage through their skulls, with interesting efficacy outcomes, while we have no idea if this is safe over the mid-long term). 

 

[ekianjo]

To believe everything can be fixed through science is ignorance at best. Everything you mention has worked for many, but has also not worked for others. There is cancer and aids medications that work and help millions daily, and millions die every year who have tried everything the exact same things. I'm not going to argue with anyone here on this subject, as there is no 100% solution to anything in life. Do you know what happens after death? I don't, but I'm sure you can tell me, as science can explain everything

I never ever said "everything can be fixed through science" - so that's a nice strawman if I ever see one. My point was that there's a growing body of scientific evidence on what works and what does not work, and that there are very potent treatments to treat several types of major depressive disorders. I know a couple of people who have such severe depressions and who are NOT able to function at all unless they take medication. When they take it, and stay on it, they behave like their normal selves again. I can tell you that to be able to design such efficacious medicines, we understand a hell of a lot of what's happening in the brain already, at least for depressive patients. 

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

They obviously did not work.

I was talking in general terms, obviously. There's enough scientific evidence that anti-depressants do work very well for many types of depressions, and most of the time the reason why patients get worse is because they don't stay on treatment, decide to skip doses, or do not tolerate the treatment anymore.  

This means it doesn't work.  All it (anti-depression drug) does is fool the patient's brains.  Like pain medication, it doesn't treat the source, it just fool your brains into thinking the pain is gone.  But when the medication wears out, you feel more pain than before.  So when the anti-depression drugs wears out, the depressed person feels more depressed than before ...  It doesn't treat the cause, it only treats the effects.  If it works, the depressed patient shouldn't take it forever to contain his depression 

 

[ekianjo]

 It doesn't treat the cause, it only treats the effects.  If it works, the depressed patient shouldn't take it forever to contain his depression 

Sorry, but you can say the same thing for many medications then. You treat the symptoms  most of the time, not the root cause. Yet you still call that treatments.

And if you don't consider that to be "really working", then what should severely depressed people do ? Just give up and not work and not be able to have relationships with the people they love ? Of course not, having a treatment is the best option for most of them. 

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

I once watched Fox News and saw this lady's story that she was told to go home and ready to die of cancer after on chemotherapy for a long time.  So she went home and said to herself, what the f!@#K, I am gonna die anyway so let me die happily.  So she started to smoke marijuana everyday the same time, the same amount.  She found herself still not dead a year later, instead she felt normal and much better.  When she went for a check up at the same hospital, they were amazed that her cancer is gone.   What's my point?  My point is I believe there's always a natural cure to every disease out there.  The CDC or FDA or the government just doesn't want to let the public knows because they won't make a cent.

 

[ekianjo]

I once watched Fox News and saw this lady's story that she was told to go home and ready to die on cancer chemotherapy for a long time.  So she went home and said to herself, what the f!@#K, I am gonna die anyway so let me die happily.  So she started to smoke marijuana everyday the same time, the same amount.  She found herself still not dead a year later, instead she felt normal and much better.  When she went for a check up at the same hospital, they were amazed that her cancer is gone.   What's my point?  My point is I believe there's always a natural cure to every disease out there.  The CDC or FDA or the government just doesn't want to let the public knows because they won't make a cent.

If there was a natural cure to every disease out there, you bet this kind of information would have leaked a long time ago once the internet was made available. Good luck finding a natural remedy for stuff like the Ebola virus, by the way. 

I can't comment on the cancer case you describe, but I would advise against considering Fox News a reliable source of information. They have a history of distorting facts (or making them up) for their own political agenda, or for sensationalism. Everything about "miraculous recovery" ought to be checked with different sources to confirm how much is truth and how much is fiction. 

 

[FaeMinx]

As someone who has personaly experienced severe depression in the past for many many years, and who was also on anti depressants, as well as trying almost everything else (no electro shock sorry)...


I can tell you from personal experience that any kind of drug is a BS way to deal with it... it just procrastinates the inevitable.


There is no way to avoid it. Stop the drugs. Live with the pain, the voices, the psychotic episodes, the chronic insomnia, the compulsion to suicide.


Live with it!


When it gets bad, don't try to avoid it, don't distract yourself with any kind of desperate escape.


Live with it. Tell Everyone to F. Off out of your life. Let your life implode.


Do what you have to to physically survive, even though the psychosis makes it virtually impossible. Wash cars, clean gardens if you have to.


Don't steal, lie or turn to drugs.


Live with the hell until you know it completely... it will be years of agony, but better than coping with dependence on some drug or escapism to try and keep the hell at bay.


Eventually you will understand. Eventually you will have mastered the darkness in yourself and you will be able to begin your life from square one, far stronger and more capable than you ever were before.


But your previous life will have become a wasteland in the process... everyone you knew, a stranger.


That is what you must face if you are serious about dealing with and resolving the root of depression.


If it makes you so you can't function in society unless you are on drugs. F*ck society! It is broken... you need to get rid of the BS before you can heal.


F*ck antidepressants.


=~. O =

 

[ekianjo]

and who was also on anti depressants, as well as trying almost everything else (no electro shock sorry)...

Have you ever considered it, though ? Electroshock therapy has been shown to provide pretty good results, and almost permanent recovery in some cases. There's the example of famous American author (can't remember his name anymore) who went through Electroshock therapy when he was in his 30's, while he was diagnosed as a desperate case in a psychiatric/mental hospital. Following the shocks treatment, after like 18 times, he was able to function like normal again, and did not need therapy anymore. 

 

[ekianjo]

Eventually you will understand. Eventually you will have mastered the darkness in yourself and you will be able to begin your life from square one, far stronger and more capable than you ever were before.

Maybe you can do it, because you are strong enough, but there are number of severely depressed people who actually turn suicidal before reaching the stage where they could live on their own without drugs. Is it better for them to be on or off treatment while risking for them to act on the suicidal thoughts ? 

It's complicated. 

 

[klapse]

When she went for a check up at the same hospital, they were amazed that her cancer is gone.   What's my point?  My point is I believe there's always a natural cure to every disease out there.  The CDC or FDA or the government just doesn't want to let the public knows because they won't make a cent.

This is BS. Worldwide millions of cancer patients smoke pot and die anyway.

People get sick and die and there is no "natural cure" just waiting to be discovered. That is magical thinking.

We are beginning a new era though - gene therapy.  A scientist I know has developed a gene-replacement therapy using transposons for a certain type of Leukemia. Clinical trials are underway.

 

[Ziz]

Not everything can be explained away by science, and the same holds true on the spiritual side.

 Then please explain why anti-depressants work

 They obviously did not work.

Anti-depressants are no miracle drugs eliminating the "depressing messenger substances"...First of all: This is one case. A tragic case, but not sufficient for scientific statements.

Secondly you don't have a second Robin Williams as "control group". Maybe he would have killed himself YEARS ago without treatment? We will never know

Thirdly as mentioned in my first statement about miracle drugs: The system brain is very very complex and often not as good known as we would like. And there are PLENTY of anti-depressants with different attempts of fixing something in the brain and it is hard to find the right one. And maybe there isn't even the right one for everyone. At least sometimes it is hard to find.

I know some people with the need of anti-depressants. Sometimes it helps. Sometimes the byeffects make es even worse. Using single cases with some specific medicines is not useful as argument (in a scientific way).

 

[Klumpen]

As someone who has personaly experienced severe depression in the past for many many years, and who was also on anti depressants, as well as trying almost everything else (no electro shock sorry)...


I can tell you from personal experience that any kind of drug is a BS way to deal with it... it just procrastinates the inevitable.


There is no way to avoid it. Stop the drugs. Live with the pain, the voices, the psychotic episodes, the chronic insomnia, the compulsion to suicide.


Live with it!


When it gets bad, don't try to avoid it, don't distract yourself with any kind of desperate escape.


Live with it. Tell Everyone to F. Off out of your life. Let your life implode.


Do what you have to to physically survive, even though the psychosis makes it virtually impossible. Wash cars, clean gardens if you have to.


Don't steal, lie or turn to drugs.


Live with the hell until you know it completely... it will be years of agony, but better than coping with dependence on some drug or escapism to try and keep the hell at bay.


Eventually you will understand. Eventually you will have mastered the darkness in yourself and you will be able to begin your life from square one, far stronger and more capable than you ever were before.


But your previous life will have become a wasteland in the process... everyone you knew, a stranger.


That is what you must face if you are serious about dealing with and resolving the root of depression.


If it makes you so you can't function in society unless you are on drugs. F*ck society! It is broken... you need to get rid of the BS before you can heal.


F*ck antidepressants.


=~. O =

*signed* I can confirm all this although I've never been on anti-depressants because I've seen the effects on too many other people around me and was shocked about those, all of them got fat,

one lost half a year of memory (the whole time she was on them), most got dependend and all of them constructed different coping mechanism afterwards to procrastinate the real problems further and do so up to this day.

Live the pain, deal with it and if it means cutting all contacts to your shallow environment/society, then do it.

Creative persons feel mental pain more real than anything but that's how it goes and why they see clearly when things around them are broken although too many think, that they themselves are broken/wrong.

BTW: Most (or all) school shootings in America and Germany I know of happened under the influence of anti-depressants, probably because people lose the grasp of the difference between fiction and reality and their whole empathy (another thing I observed in my anti-depressant filled friends).

and who was also on anti depressants, as well as trying almost everything else (no electro shock sorry)...

Have you ever considered it, though ? Electroshock therapy has been shown to provide pretty good results, and almost permanent recovery in some cases. There's the example of famous American author (can't remember his name anymore) who went through Electroshock therapy when he was in his 30's, while he was diagnosed as a desperate case in a psychiatric/mental hospital. Following the shocks treatment, after like 18 times, he was able to function like normal again, and did not need therapy anymore.

I've seen you promoting nuclear power plants and anti-depressants but with electroshocks it's enough now.

There is a reason why those are illegal in some countries.

All it does is confuse the patient, scramble his brain chemicals in an extremely random way and erase parts of his memory.

Sure, if someone is "misbehaving" you can taser his brain and he will be so confused that he won't be able to do this in the next time and after a while he will lose enough of it's personality/memories that your "problem" has gone along with a lot else.

Stop advertising this, I can't tolerate it.

His wife slept in another room this night, went to work the next day and didn't even notice that he is dead. Of course there was something wrong in his environment!

 

[ekianjo]

Stop advertising this, I can't tolerate it.

That's not at all what happened to that American author, you should seriously read about his testimony before making a judgment on something you obviously know nothing about. Mind you, before anti-depressants were discovered in the late 20th century, electroshock therapy was the treatment of choice for severe depression. It's not tazing, it's applying a low, controlled amount of electricity for a certain period of time through your skull. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroshock_therapy

Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT), formerly known as electroshock therapy, is a standard psychiatric treatment in which seizures are electrically induced in patients to provide relief from psychiatric illnesses.[1] ECT is usually used as a last line of intervention for major depressive disorder, schizophrenia, mania and catatonia.[2] A usual course of ECT involves multiple administrations, typically given two or three times per week until the patient is no longer suffering symptoms. It was first introduced in 1938 by Italian neuropsychiatrists Ugo Cerletti and Lucio Bini, and gained widespread popularity among psychiatrists as a form of treatment in the 1940s and 1950s.[3][4]

Here's the piece about efficacy :

A meta-analysis done on the effectiveness of ECT in unipolar and bipolar depression was conducted in 2012. Findings showed that, although patients with unipolar depression and bipolar depression responded to other medical treatments very differently, both groups responded equally well to ECT. Overall remission rate for patients with unipolar depression was 51.5% and 50.9% in those with bipolar depression. The severity of each patient’s depression was assessed at the same baseline in each group.[33]

 

[Null]

it was considered a very effective treatment against some major forms of depression until anti-depressants were discovered and released.

It's still considered as a very effective treatment, mind you that's because it is (for quite a few people anyway).

 

[PokeParadox]

To elaborate on what I was saying. Every case of depression should be treated differently and just to look it at the base "It's all chemical" is absurd. Sure levels of certain hormones can case depression and pills can treat the levels. And in people with severe depression where they literally have no reason why they should be depressed this might be the only answer.

But on the other side of the coin, I was thinking think and thinking some more yesterday because the death of Robin Williams jostled me into doing so and looking at my bahaviour recently I've "admitted" to myself that I am in fact depressed.

I'm going to see my GP and such but my depression is entire logical and through the external factors of the fact my wife and son are all the way in Chile. This is a long-standing situation. It's something that I constantly deal with and it's something that will hopefully not be a burdem once my wife visitor visa is granted and they can spend 6 months with me.

In any case the cure for my depression will be my wife passing her English test and us finally getting the settlement visa so we can just continue our lives the way we should have been able to 4 years ago. Taking pills would alleviate the syptoms but not be an absolute answer.